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Panzer Leo -> (7/18/2001 10:52:00 AM)

Hi rich ! The main idea behind the OOB was to create a more German atmosphere, flavour with the real German designations and b/w pics. If this is a thing you do not pay much attention to, you'll probably find it to uncomfortable to adjust scenarios (although it is not a really a big deal). In this case, you'll be best advised with not using it. If you think "the way how it looks and feels" in the game is important, check it out... I always liked to some sort of identify with the troops I played and original designations are very helpfull with that. When playing Italians e.g. I always preferred having squads like "Bersaglieri", not "IT Elite Inf sqd", but it's all about what you prefer... anyway, have fun...



gators -> (7/18/2001 5:51:00 PM)

Then why have spotters at all?



Panzer Leo -> (7/18/2001 6:59:00 PM)

To direct arty fire. That's the way it's supposed to be - and not to give the Inf unit a hint, that there's a bad enemy waiting behind the next bushes, like you will do with a spotter plane. ;)



panda124c -> (7/18/2001 7:10:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Panzer Leo: The thing with the Gebirgsjaeger is really a problem. When you make them special forces, they will be a cheap variation of the Spaeh/Sabot grp. If you make them cost the same, they're to expensive to use as normal fighting force, but they actually were one. As I said before, the only thing that really helps is say: please,please,please Paul, give us the mountain infantry type with cliff climbing, but no infiltration :D :D :D
I use FJs should be about the same as far as equipment, experiance, and moral goes. Assign slightly heavier support weapons, light howitzers, heavy MGs, Heavy Mortars, mules, etc. [ July 18, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]



Paul Vebber -> (7/18/2001 9:08:00 PM)

COmbat leader will have teh ability for OOB designers to create their own unit classes, so you can check boxes fo rteh capabilities you want a class of units to have, 'Unit can climb' is distinct from 'unit can infiltrate'. We found that be the ultimate solution - but it has to wait for CL/CA.



nexus -> (7/18/2001 10:51:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Panzer Leo: Fuesilier formations is a good thought. They could easily be made up of existing units by gathering them in a formation. I will keep this in mind :) The Luftwaffe Feldeinheiten were left out intentionally, 'cause they would need their own unit(s) (and slots are precious, as you know) and they only appeared in relevant numbers in 42/43 (if my mind doesn't let me down on this). So I think the FJs gotta represent the Luftwaffe on the ground :D
thatīs not excatly right. there were two types pf LW troops: 1. the falschirmjäger that you mentioned. they were good till elite troops with good weapons and officers. but later in the war not anymore used in their primary role,instead as a good infantry troops. 2. the luftwaffe divisions which were colected by this fool h.goering who wants to give hitler a "present" from his luftwaffe as the war getīs worse for germany. they consist of airbase personal and such which were not used anymore in this role, they were of course not proper trained for infantry fighting and had no good weapons. so they had no good fighting rating. but the stupid german leaders as hitler,goering and others believed they could stand up to regular infantry...that was a big mistake as reality shows. the german front commanders did know that,but they had no other troops to fight with at the late stage of war. they must take what they get.



gators -> (7/18/2001 11:31:00 PM)

Presumably spotters whether on the ground or in the air would tell you as a general rule that there are bad guys there, I know it would be a routinely kind thing to do.



Paul Vebber -> (7/19/2001 12:25:00 AM)

Watch the Battle of the Battle - Henry Fonda shows what spotter planes were used for...that and directing artillery places where ground pounders couldn't get. How would this "telling you" be accomplished...unfortunately the games Borg telepathy doesn't work in real life? WW2 era radios only had one - or maybe a handful of freqs, and the spotter (who worked for the Division or Corps), would have no way to communicate the info of what was going on as they happened to pass the front (at 3-5k ft to avoid small fire) ontheir way to do their REAL mission, which is operational not tactical.



Panzer Leo -> (7/19/2001 12:32:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by freyburg: Presumably spotters whether on the ground or in the air would tell you as a general rule that there are bad guys there, I know it would be a routinely kind thing to do.
So you think it sounds realistic, that a pilot of a Fieseler Storch picks up his radio, asks the divisional staff to connect him down to Reg, then Bat, then Comp, then Plat to finally get Unteroffizier Hintermayer and tell him a enemy rifle squad is waiting 100 yards away in an ambush ??? Or do you mean the pilot is asking the General to talk to Hintermayer ? :D Agree with the Luftwaffe units, but they still need separate units to display them - makes no sense to waste a slot for such an unimportant feature. Second line troops consisting of gathered different troops are represented by the Volksgrenadier units. Rename them to Luftwaffenfeldeinheit and you got it... ;)



A_B -> (7/19/2001 12:38:00 AM)

If the germans get Gerbigsjaeger, then the US should get Mountain troops. US had the 10th mountain in Italy (wasn't that Bob Doles old outfit). I know many of the classic rock climbs in Colorado were put up in the early days of WWII, when 10th mountain cadre were out playing. Some of the old pitons are still around IIRC.



panda124c -> (7/19/2001 1:22:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by nexus: thatīs not excatly right. there were two types pf LW troops: 1. the falschirmjäger that you mentioned. they were good till elite troops with good weapons and officers. but later in the war not anymore used in their primary role,instead as a good infantry troops. 2. the luftwaffe divisions which were colected by this fool h.goering who wants to give hitler a "present" from his luftwaffe as the war getīs worse for germany. they consist of airbase personal and such which were not used anymore in this role, they were of course not proper trained for infantry fighting and had no good weapons. so they had no good fighting rating. but the stupid german leaders as hitler,goering and others believed they could stand up to regular infantry...that was a big mistake as reality shows. the german front commanders did know that,but they had no other troops to fight with at the late stage of war. they must take what they get.
True and with the German method of making new divisions to replace demolished divisions instead of filling out the ranks of the division. The manpower in these divisions were lost to a real Infantry Division which could have trained them as useful troops. And as always there is an exception to the rule the Herman Goring Division.



panda124c -> (7/19/2001 1:26:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by A_B: If the germans get Gerbigsjaeger, then the US should get Mountain troops. US had the 10th mountain in Italy (wasn't that Bob Doles old outfit). I know many of the classic rock climbs in Colorado were put up in the early days of WWII, when 10th mountain cadre were out playing. Some of the old pitons are still around IIRC.
Ok let's keep going, the Americans only had one the Germans several, what about the Italians, and let's not forget the UK. Ooooh I can see it now a MC on the Gothic line. The 'joy' of Monte Cassino. :D



Fabs -> (7/19/2001 1:42:00 AM)

Rockin'Harry said: Well,...Iīm just preparing a Caucasus 1942 scenario, where just this cliff climbing ability is needed. Map has steep mountainous terrain with up to ten levels/slopes. (Similar to SP2WW2). Donīt think itīs possible? Wait... What is the secret, Rockin'Harry? I've wanted to create mountainous terrain for ages!



nexus -> (7/19/2001 3:10:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by pbear: True and with the German method of making new divisions to replace demolished divisions instead of filling out the ranks of the division. The manpower in these divisions were lost to a real Infantry Division which could have trained them as useful troops. And as always there is an exception to the rule the Herman Goring Division.
yes, that was mainly to show hitler some more flags on his maps with the "division" symbol,even if that units only have the combat value of a regiment or even lower.



gators -> (7/19/2001 8:00:00 AM)

pbear there are Italian mountain troops the Alpini, most of them were a crack outfit when used as mountain troops.



RockinHarry -> (7/20/2001 12:50:00 AM)

Sure..if "real" mountain capable troops are available, then all countries that had them historically, also should have them reflected in the OOBs. German, US, Italian, French, Soviet etc. To have them in the OOB or in a special premade scenario makes a difference though. Since weīre discussing about OOB, "cliff climbing" means also "infiltration", as itīs part of the "special forces" class and so is not quite suitable for "mountain troops" in OOB. Also SPWAW generated maps donīt have many cliffs (..not at all?), so no cliff climbing needed here. With custom scenarios itīs different of course... I think Pnzer Leoīs approach is suitable. On customized maps, things look different: http://members.surfeu.de/ug2010/SPWAW/Mountains.jpg http://members.surfeu.de/ug2010/SPWAW/Mountains_Zoom.jpg http://members.surfeu.de/ug2010/SPWAW/Balcan.jpg http://members.surfeu.de/ug2010/SPWAW/Wooded.jpg Examples 1+2 have mostly rocks and boulders terrain classes, so you really need this "cliff climbing" ability if you want to go somewhere. Donīt expect to drive with vehicles around there, you just can with "trail" in same hex and with considerable breakdown chance. Fabs,..Iīll send you some notes and example map. Itīs off topic here in the thread and simply too much to explain... :eek: Oops...what mail address?? _________ Harry [ July 19, 2001: Message edited by: RockinHarry ]



Fabs -> (7/20/2001 3:14:00 AM)

RockinHarry, my e-mail address is: fabio@mantegazza.demon.co.uk Look forward to receiving your material, and thanks!



RockinHarry -> (7/22/2001 12:42:00 AM)

Fabs: info incoming... :) ______ Harry



KG Erwin -> (7/22/2001 2:56:00 AM)

Panzer Leo, I've been using your OOB mod for a few days, and I love it! Putting together a kampfgruppe based on actual historical formations is now easier to accomplish. One of the notable facets is the inclusion of the formerly missing Kradschutzen units. It's all pretty cool, and it has that German "flavor" that I was missing in the "official" OOB. Love the pictures, too! I will agree that this OOB should be the standard and included in the game package. Well done! :)



Paul Vebber -> (7/22/2001 3:29:00 AM)

Unfortunately as many changes as have been made neans most scenarios with German units will likely have problems using these Obs. Thus we can;t make them "official" I'm still hoping an enterprising programmer out there will make an "OOB management" routine to make it easier to use multiple OOb sets in teh game...



KG Erwin -> (7/22/2001 4:02:00 AM)

I suppose the only thing you can do in playing the pre-existing scenarios is to make sure you keep a copy of the "official" OOB70 and rename it to OOB70(orig) or something like that. If you plan on playing a scenario, just switch the names in the main folder before booting up the game. Same goes for the Norwegian OOB86. Of course, the new snds and pics and icons are a bit trickier, but I suppose if you had enough room in the HD you could just have two copies of SPWaW, one with the "original" OOBs and another with Panzer Leo's mods. Unfortunately, I don't the space to spare. I generally play campaigns, so it's not an issue for me.



RockinHarry -> (7/22/2001 4:55:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: I'm still hoping an enterprising programmer out there will make an "OOB management" routine to make it easier to use multiple OOb sets in teh game...
looks like something for ectizen to do.. :D ..tweaking Scenario wrangler a little bit? ________ Harry



Panzer Leo -> (7/22/2001 11:12:00 PM)

Thanks, for the kind comments, KG ! I was thinking of working on the campaigns, you play the German side, like "Watchword Freedom", e.g., to make them playable with my OOB. It works the way I described above for fixing scenarios. You just take the campaign files out of the campaigns folder and save them as scenarios. Then you can go in the editor and change the German auxiliary forces in there by using the "make unit to different type" button. Unfortunately, I'm a bit busy at the moment and will not be able to do it very soon. Maybe someone else has fun on working on the campaigns and could do this, to share it with the ones, who would like to have it. ...someone interested, then just mail me, in case you have some questions. :)



KG Erwin -> (7/23/2001 10:15:00 AM)

OK, Panzer Leo, and let me try an experiment here:"Eines Tages vielleicht ich werde Deutschland besuchen, und ich werde ein bier kaufen Ihnen." Perhaps someday I will come to Germany, and I'll buy you a beer. My knowledge of the German language, apart from military terms, is obviously pretty limited. The presence of German natives on the forum is a good way to try to learn a little more of the language. We ARE a multicultural forum, so why not?



Panzer Leo -> (7/23/2001 7:59:00 PM)

Well, KG, experiment was a shining success ! Thanks for the invitation and with that good German, you would have gotten your beer anywhere in Germany (maybe not in Bavaria, their German is not as good as yours :D) ! One of the main differences in arranging the sentences (grammar) in German or English are words, that you would put at the end of a sentence or at another point and we not (but do not ask me why !!!). So your sentence would be totally correct: "Eines Tages vielleicht, werde ich Deutschland besuchen und ich werde ihnen ein Bier kaufen." ...so you see, yours is almost perfect and no German has any problems understanding it (except the Bavarians, of course :D). Good job, KG !



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