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Von Rom -> (6/11/2003 11:07:55 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Boar
[B]I think you bring up a very important concept here -- wargaming indeed needs to take advantage of the latest technology to keep up the interest of those who would play wargames. I am an old school boardgamer -- started out with the original Gettysburg with large rectangular counters. Played my Dad and was thrilled, even though he took the evil tactic of utilizing hidden movement to mass his Union army behind a ridge and slaughter me. Fast forward (from .. about 1972) to the present. My son saw some of my stacked up wargames and expressed an interest in "Caesar at Alesia." I remember this as a well designed, but rather challenging, wargame. We set it up and he played the Gauls. When the Gauls hit the foss (the ditch lined with sharpened sticks and other deterents), we had to roll for EACH unit in Roman ZOC to see if it survived. We designed a system -- I called out "top" for the top unit and he rolled. Then "bottom" and he rolled for the bottom unit, and so on. We had a great time and he learned a bit about the efficiency of the Roman war machine due to this game. He is very up on his Roman history. But the fact is it was a major challenge to play -- we had to carefully guard the maps and pieces from the marauding wife and a couple of dangerous cats, not to mention the fact that our big fingers have a hard time grasping a stack of two units surrounded by 6 other stacks of units.

It's a beautiful game, and I have many more even larger and more beautiful. Terrible Swift Sword, Wellington's Victory, and La Bataille de la Moskowa, are amongst the "monster games" that were the height of wargaming back in 1979 or so. But today there is an opportunity to use computer graphics and technology to make wargames just as good and engrossing. I don't think we're there yet, but I think that time will come. In the meantime I'll hang on to my old board games, but it sure is nice to have a computer to do the number crunching that became such a problem in the bigger wargames.

Happy gaming, everyone. [/B][/QUOTE]

I think little boys especially have a natural curiosity about history and war. And I think that interest in history can be magnified many times over when a significant adult shows interest in them and in history. In other words, makes history interesting.

To my mind, a wargame is a simulation of an historical event or of past actions.

Many people who either don't know history or hate it, have usually never been exposed to history or have had very lousy history teachers. In college once, I had a history professor who was so bad I had to drop the course (and this from a guy who lives and breathes history).

Young people especially, if exposed to history at an early age, will grow up to appreciate the significance of past events, and I think will be drawn to those games that reflect upon the past.

I remember once talking to my God son about the Battle of Thermopylae. He was 4 years old and I told him all about the battle. I told him about the great army of Xerxes; about the inspiring leadership of the Spartan King Leonidas; and about the great courage and self-sacrifice of the Spartan warriors, clad in plumed helmets, who fought for days against over-whelming odds. He became so interested that he dug out his little army men and wanted me to set them up to simulate what happened back during that classic battle. And then he sat spell-bound while I re-told the tale using his little plastic men. . .

I am not advocating wargames as a means to instill a war mentality in the young (or the old). Rather, I see wargames as a tool to lead young people into learning more about the periods they are gaming.

As I mentioned previously, the original Age of Empires manual contained a section that went in-depth into the history of 12 ancient civilizations. I enjoyed reading this, and was surprised that a computer game would include so much information about these past civilizations.

I don't see the situation as an "us" vs "them". Rather, people will usually play those games to which they have ben exposed. The computer industry has hyped to us that bigger, faster, flashier is better (so we will always upgrade our computers). But the games that result from all this are often not any better (and are often worse).

Most young people will play games they think other young people are playing (peer pressure is a very powerful thing). But it has been my experience that even people at the age of 12 and 13, if exposed to history and wargaming in the right way, will usually gravitate to them. Remember how we all felt when we played our first game of Risk?

With all the computer games out there, I would much rather children play wargames or strategy games such as Civ2 (where you have the opportunity to play a variety of civilizations and time periods), where they have at least the opportunity to learn something about the history and the importance behind the period they are playing. This type of game can be used as a learning tool.

For example, before I played UV, I never fully appreciated the importance of supply in combat operations. Now I understand what the forces in that theatre had to contend with. This in turn, has led me to read more books on the Pacific War and to re-watch films and documentaries about the war.

I think a real synergy exists between the wargame and history.

And the best thing of all - it is also fun.




riverbravo -> (6/11/2003 11:36:21 PM)

Who said no to "eyecandy"?

IMO cram it full of bells and whistles......Make it as goodlooking as possible without screwin up the gameplay.The only people who complain are the ones who's system wont run the game smoothly if at all.

Does it take a eyefull of graphics to make a wargame good.......no it doesnt.

If it is possible for the ones making the game to stuff it full of videos and slick graphics and explosions and stuff .......why not?

If we are discussing wargames one subject has seemed to been left out. Futuristic style fantasy mech type games.I can say that I really dont play any PC games like that but there are plenty that do.

In this style games the artist and devs can go nuts.Really let there imagination run wild with crazy storylines and wild weapons and vehicles.They are not stuck with historical accuracy.

The real type wargames should not just be a "game" but a tool of learning.How many times has a wargame sparked youre interest about a certain theatre or operation?

In wargaming I think accuracy is the key,armor penetration,range of weapons,LOS, etc as well as correct weapons and units that were in the battle.

I cant wait to check out that BC game,it looks great,Im just concerned with the interface and the RP aspect.




Fred98 -> (6/12/2003 7:16:22 AM)

My view is that game play always comes first

But we have been blessed with good graphics in recent years.

If a new game comes out with great game play but the graphics are worse, then it is a real turn off. My example is Airborne Assault.

Note that Matrix is to publish the sequel. The maps of the original game are so horrible. I started to play the demo to the original game but the poor maps are a real turn off.

Then I saw some screen shots of new maps to be used for the sequel. They are very nice.

I immediately loaded the demo of the original yet again and this time I spent some time playing it.

I found a beaut new wargame. It is unique. It is riveting. I will get the sequel when it is released.

But the graphics of the original are just so horrible, I have no desire to get the original. There is no way that a “Maybe” person (see my definition above) would ever get the original game.

I continue to press my point: We must convert the “Maybe” players to wargaming. How could they possibly discover wargaming if they never see a wargame?

If wargames had a “realism” option we wargamers would always turn “realism” on. The “Maybes” would probably begin by turning “realism” off.

But the sales would be higher and some of the “Maybes” would become one of “Us” – real wargamers.




Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (6/12/2003 8:32:06 AM)

The screen shots comment drew me in. So I looked. Hmm I like what I see.

Now I will of course draw groans from the give me cool graphics crowd, get over it. But I like the look of the pieces as being "counters". Damnit all we don't need prancing animations to make a wargame interesting.

To say so is the height of intolerable insult to a potential wargamer. Might as well just add we will make cute options for the intellectually stunted.

Anyone that will play these games at all, will do so if we can say, yes give this game a try, but only if you want a "real" challenge. But we have to be able to back up that claim, and do it better than the other guy.

The market is knee deep in nice cute looking fun games. Some only want that. If you would attract a serious gamer, you must give them a serious game.

Sure make nice graphics if possible. But understand this, if it looks like a baywatch game, it might get dismissed as a baywatch game too. And then where will you be (about the same place all those educated super models are).

I only played a small bit of AA when it was a demo at Battlefront. Frankly 5 minutes was enough. Any good wargamer can see something with potential. I was dismayed when it suddenly disappeared too. I had planned on buying it when I had the chance. I was happy Matrix was able to return it to the wargame circuit.

Heck, we are talking Sarge here eh guys, if I am thinking of buying a non turn using wargame, you have to accept it has to be more than just more of the same.
The graphics mean nothing to me, if the game makes me feel like I am actually running a battle in a tangible and credible fashion, I am interested.

If I want neat graphics I can find neat graphics, but I expect a wargame to look like one. Appearances mean something eh.




Ian Packham -> (6/12/2003 9:46:19 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
[B]You can not compare EYSA with a FPS, the camera enviroment is totally different, thats why you have to cut on the graphics for some parts of it (simply explained) or end up with minimum specs not from this planet.

I wouldn´t hold my breath too much on BC beeing a "new CC2", I surely hope that I´ll be proofed wrong though. [/B][/QUOTE]

I understand your point, but there is a big difference in the graphic quality between EYSA and BC, albeit BC will require much higher system specs.

I think the day when a highly detailed 3D world in which a realistic wargame can be set is drawing near, and that could be the catalyst to get wargames back into the mainstream.

If Saving Private Ryan had not been made, and the subsequent inspired Band of Brothers, then we would not have had this new general interest in WWII and the many WWII based FPS games that are now appearing. We need a SPR version of a 3D wargame to bring casual gamers back in, which does mean highly detailed quality environments will be required.




Ian Packham -> (6/12/2003 9:59:01 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Graphics alone won't see a non wargamer turn into a wargamer.

Nor will gameplay alone.

You gentlemen, you are what sells wargames.

My friend recently upgraded his video card. I don't recall the specific card, but he invested 700 bucks (Canadian) in it, so it was definitely top drawer.

He has the Enter the Matrix game. His comment, well my new video card really makes the game perform better now. Trouble is, he also says it now makes it very apparent the game is no good.

The game obviously has demanding software (I have not seen it myself yet), but that demanding software doesn't appear to have been well employed.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Except your friend was tempted to spend $700 on a video card and was tempted to buy Enter the Matrix to see the flashy graphics. So eye candy does sell, full stop.

Eye candy is the key to opening up wargames to the casual gamer - there is no need to sacrifice realistic tactics/strategies or statistics. The casual gamer will adopt to any set of rules, whether real or not, so long as they get their fix of eye candy and the user interface is intuitive.

So we must wait for a major studio with deep enough pockets to finance a big budget wargame - thats a risk that so far publishers have not been prepared to take even though WWII FPS are the flavor of the day.




BrubakerII -> (6/12/2003 2:15:43 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris Merchant
[B]hehe...I play 2 games almost exclusively these days...

Korsun Pocket

and...

Mohaa (online)

:D [/B][/QUOTE]

SNAP! (except insert Wolf: Enemy Territory for Mohaa)

Must be an Adelaide thing unless Chris you are my long lost twin brother in which case I severely pity you...

Brubaker




BrubakerII -> (6/12/2003 2:47:44 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe 98
[B]Then I saw some screen shots of new maps to be used for the sequel. They are very nice.

I immediately loaded the demo of the original yet again and this time I spent some time playing it. [/B][/QUOTE]

Joe I know this is intended to support your arguement, and it does, but honestly there is some hypocrisy here. I just think you have categorically stated that an old time wargamer can be influenced by pretty graphics (Les included) so I understand the conclsuion to be (in this case) that by improving graphics one can increase sales (to all types by any definition)?


I must be a little different to you people. Although in the same age category, I don'y look at a (new) game and think "oh nice graphics shame about the gameplay". In my opinion this is a tired arguement that although pertinent in the past (and sometimes currently) is not necessarily the be all and end all arguement it used to be. Simply put for any computer product to command more than $20 USD then it has to have a moderate amount of complexity, be pretty to look at, and have a ton of advertising (through various medium) to be successful. This is an industry and as with all industries has logical business parameters that will determine success or not.

Should Microsoft make another "Age" sequel? Hell, wouldn't you? Or would you hire that wierd guy from Texas and his motley crew because they have a 'concept' that may or may not work?

I love graphics. The prettier the game the better. When graphics and wargames combine, I am in heaven. If this appeals to others, then we all win, because their money will drive the industry forward and I am selfish :cool: Should David H back a crowd with an ugly 90's game or convince them to move into the 00's? by improving the graphics? What would you do?

I actually find the whole arguement of graphics vs gameplay to be quite redundant. Surely in this day and age ALL games should be at a certain level of graphical capability to be even saleable? Would you buy a car that didn't have a heater or radio? Are we holding back an industry based purely on redundant ideas?

I say god bless 3d graphics in the same way I said god bless 'soundblaster' once because it made 'Gunship' sound better than 'Space Invaders' and god bless 'Commodore64' because it made 'Defender' because it look a heap better than 'Pong'. Lets move with the times people. Graphics aren't an option they are a must have.

Just my [IMG]http://users.esc.net.au/~ooyeah/Forumpic/2cents.jpg[/IMG]

Brubaker




Ian Packham -> (6/12/2003 4:09:07 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BrubakerII
[B]
I love graphics. The prettier the game the better. When graphics and wargames combine, I am in heaven. If this appeals to others, then we all win, because their money will drive the industry forward and I am selfish :cool: Should David H back a crowd with an ugly 90's game or convince them to move into the 00's? by improving the graphics? What would you do?

I actually find the whole arguement of graphics vs gameplay to be quite redundant. Surely in this day and age ALL games should be at a certain level of graphical capability to be even saleable? Would you buy a car that didn't have a heater or radio? Are we holding back an industry based purely on redundant ideas?

Graphics aren't an option they are a must have.[/B][/QUOTE]

Brubaker,

I agree with your comments wholeheartedly. However the problem with the wargames industry IMHO is that it fell into a rut with games that satisfy grogs but with poor graphics which alienated everyone else. It is amazing to me to see games still being released today with graphics that look as if they were made 10 - 15 years ago. Functional yes but very ugly.

With correspondingly low sales, which publisher wants to back a major wargame title these days? If David H has the money to support another year of development work to produce great graphics then he should tell developers to move into the 00's. If he has a limited budget then he will more likely choose titles which can be produced fairly quickly with a small team of programmers and hope that the gameplay is good enough to attract customers.

We need a breakthrough game, a catalyst that will spur other publishers to back big wargame titles. Until then, we are likely to remain graphically deprived and on the sidelines of games society.




Tbone3336 -> (6/12/2003 6:03:39 PM)

I agree 100% that graphics should be of high quality for games today and that when they are not they detract somewhat from the quality. But just as with the Matrix game, graphics must accompany solid gameplay. Between the two if you can have one or the other, most everyone will choose solid gameplay over superior graphics if needed. I know it has been hashed over many times, however, I get a muddled mind when I see games like Age of Empires and these civilisation type games sell so well (yes they are fun and I do enjoy them to an extent), and then you have a game such as TAO, or even some of the better selling games such as UV, or Combat Mission that for them sell ok ( I am only going on what I gleem from people who know better if they sell well or not), but not anywhere near an Age of Empire or other such game. So I am wondering if there is, like others pointed out, an underlying cause that will keep games such as UV and the others at the modest sale points an no higher, regardless of quality. Is it the commitment of time and thought to get the most out of the game by the player, is it the subject, or just the general gameplay that does not appeal to the mass mainstream gamer? I am not a marketing nor psycologist (?sp), but it is interesting to ponder. Anyway, if wargames became hot stuff and sold millions and millions we would have alot more games made and probably alot more shovelware to go with it. Sorry for the Novel lenght post.




Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (6/12/2003 8:09:27 PM)

Laughable really laughable actually.

In regards to my buddy who bought the 700 dollar video card.
Hmm well he is 19, has a modest job, no girlfriend and has zero interest in wargames. I said zero eh.

He bought the sound card because he watches movies on his computer. He didn't buy it for Enter the Matrix. And remember, I said he now realises the game is shallow junk.

The graphics did NOT do the game any good at all. They FAILED.
The game is to him about graphics that deliver nothing.

Now we get to wargamers or maybe wargamers. Do this simple test. Go to any highschool, during an assembly ask to ask two simple questions, how many wargamers are in the audience. And how many people might be interested in trying one if the game was the same level of difficulty, but had nice graphics.

In a group of people, you will always have a proportion that like this and a proportion that like that. It's natural.
Suggesting prettier graphics will suddenly make a radical difference is laughable, pure and simple.

A not well accepted fact, but a fact all the same, is that through the entire course of modern wargaming ie that which began in the early 70's, there has never once, not once, been a major selling wargame title ever. Not once. That includes my favourite ASL too.
Look at the real figures guys, the truth is there will NEVER be a large mainstream wargaming crowd.

Wargames come in two varieties, successes and failures. Sucesses continue to sell, and failures, well make enough and you get to become an example to the hobby.
All the money produced by ASL ever, would not exceed this years production of shlock games like Monopoly.

So all you wing nuts ranting for a more graphically intense experience, no one is listening now, and no one will be listening tomorrow.
All you are accomplishing, is forcing the very finite wargaming audience, to play games YOU think they want to play.

You will never get anywhere dressing up your wargames. You will just increase the price tag. Look at board games, the sales dropped off when they got fancier and fancier.
Originally Squad Leader was a buy it once game. Cost me 30 some bucks. it was a complete game, and there was nothing fundementally wrong with it.
But people insisted it had to be more (I was not one of them).
The game HAS improved, no one can deny that, but hmm ever priced out a complete set before? I am suuuuuuuuure its doing real well attracting casual gamers (add a bucket of sarcasm).

The answer is not to make the game more, but to make the game better. I personally think Airborne Assault will outsell most 3d games. Because it is a better game, not a flashier game. The remake has better graphics yes, but those better graphics are basically better at what they already were. The images of counters will seem a backwards step to some. But fools and their money are often soon parted. I will not mind people wasting their money on yet another 3d game if they insist. But when the game is no longer interesting a year later, I will just be off to the side laughing.

If you can't get someone to enjoy a good old fashioned classic wargame, it's not the game, it's YOU.




Fred98 -> (6/13/2003 6:03:19 AM)

Les said:

“In a group of people, you will always have a proportion that like this and a proportion that like that. It's natural.

Suggesting prettier graphics will suddenly make a radical difference is laughable, pure and simple.”

Yes I agree.

And I still agree.

And I agreed in all my posts in this thread

And that why I said we need to look after the proportion that like this and the proportion that like that.

Look after all of them.

All of them.

To do this we have an option.

It would be called a Realism option

Unfortunately the first thing that came to mind was graphics so everybody has jumped on that bandwagon. But weapons systems is the other.

Realism is on or it is off.

If it is on it will satisfy a proportion. If it is off it will satisfy another proportion.

Over-all the game sales will be higher.

And some who start with realism off, will be converted. They will turn realism on – and become wargamers.

For Example: Combat Leader:

Once the game engine is complete there could be a second set of graphics. All rifles are replaced by laser guns. Tiger tanks replaced by Klingon battle cruisers etc etc and so on and so forth. But the excellent game-play remain the same.


PS: I am baffled why an improved graphic is always associated with 3D. Combat Leader graphics will be better than Steel Panther's. Show me where Combat Leader is 3D?

Les said:
“I……Airborne Assault ……. remake has better graphics yes, but those better graphics are basically better at what they already were.”

Yes Les, and if there were a third edition of Airborne Assault I could never allow the map graphics to go backwards. If they did I would ignore the game.




Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (6/13/2003 6:33:09 AM)

What I want to know, but is outside the scope of my knowledge, is if asking for dual graphics modes will be possible within a doable expense level where software is concerned.

What would the actual cost be?

If they could make Combat Leader and Close Assault defacto the same program, what would the unified program cost end up being?

I mean if the resulting cost creates a program that retails for close to double the cost, lets say not 60 bucks but 100 bucks US, well you just lost this customer for both games. I don't have that sort of money.

Yes I would not be buying the game inspite of what I expect it to be. And most grumble about games over 45 bucks on top of that. And that would mean more lost customers not more gained customers.

Not all software can be made so easy that a button will fix everything. That button represent a lot of software design.




Fred98 -> (6/13/2003 6:47:59 AM)

I don't know either but it seems to me that the game engine and the game play are the most time consuming.

As for graphics, its no big deal to get a Tiger tank and add a few bits so it becomes a Klingon Battle Wagon.

Then you change the attack strenghth of the main gun and presto you have a laser.

Graphics of this type fall into the realm of assembly line work.




Ian Packham -> (6/16/2003 11:14:50 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]
So all you wing nuts ranting for a more graphically intense experience, no one is listening now, and no one will be listening tomorrow.
All you are accomplishing, is forcing the very finite wargaming audience, to play games YOU think they want to play.

You will never get anywhere dressing up your wargames. You will just increase the price tag. Look at board games, the sales dropped off when they got fancier and fancier.
Originally Squad Leader was a buy it once game. Cost me 30 some bucks. it was a complete game, and there was nothing fundementally wrong with it.
But people insisted it had to be more (I was not one of them).
The game HAS improved, no one can deny that, but hmm ever priced out a complete set before? I am suuuuuuuuure its doing real well attracting casual gamers (add a bucket of sarcasm).

The answer is not to make the game more, but to make the game better. I personally think Airborne Assault will outsell most 3d games. Because it is a better game, not a flashier game. The remake has better graphics yes, but those better graphics are basically better at what they already were. The images of counters will seem a backwards step to some. But fools and their money are often soon parted. I will not mind people wasting their money on yet another 3d game if they insist. But when the game is no longer interesting a year later, I will just be off to the side laughing.

If you can't get someone to enjoy a good old fashioned classic wargame, it's not the game, it's YOU. [/B][/QUOTE]

Mmmmm....and how many old fashioned, classic, silent, black & white movies have you watched recently? Is it just me who finds them boring and irrelevant in today's world?

Suggesting that developers should just concentrate on gameplay to sell their games without considering graphics is laughable. It doesn't produce the profits needed. Crap like Enter the Matrix will have sold more copies on its first day of release than the acclaimed UV. Enter the Matrix has the hype and the graphics, UV has the gameplay.

Times move on and people want and expect better production values. In a free market, people choose the better graphics. Everyone wants great gameplay, but that does not need to be sacrificed by outdated graphics. Great graphics and great gameplay can co-exist in the same game!

And the developers ARE listening to the casual gamers because thats where the bucks are. Les, you think wargamers want to play the games you are interested in but I would say your preferences are in the minority. This is a games industry working in the free market economy, not a communist state where you can "educate" people into believing that there is a true form of wargaming and that other types are somehow inferior and will corrupt the purity of wargames.

The WWII FPS games show that there is a big demand for wargames. And the trend is to make these FPS games more serious and more tactical eg Operation Flashpoint, Rainbow Six etc. Genres are mixing together and the resulting hybrids can satisfy both wargamers and casual gamers alike.

There may never be a mass market for strategic campaign wargames because they take too long to play and have too many details and headaches for the casual gamer. But give them a realistic squad based wargame which immerses them in WWII for 30-60 minutes, these can be major sellers.

It is fairly simple to have a 3D wargame where you have a birds eye tactical view for moving troops around a map and then jump into a first person FPS mode where you can take on the role of any soldier under your command. Then everyone is satisfied as they can choose how much tactical or action gameplay they want.

As for your friend, he did not spend $700 just to watch movies - the most basic graphics card can do that. He spent $700 to enable him to play the latest, flashy games which includes Enter the Matrix. Gameplay may indeed suck for that game but tell him to read reviews first so he buys only good games in future!




Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (6/16/2003 11:36:31 AM)

Hmm well actually he plays games and he plays movies, well actually he downloads more video than plays games.

Actually he usually has watched most movies before they even enter the theatre (just need to know where to look).

He plays a few games, but I can assure you, nope he ain't into games near as much.

As for black and white, actually you should see my collection, the best war movies are like The Longest Day, and it is black and white. Sure a lot of my old films are in colour, but it is old colour too.
I rarely and I do mean veeeery rarely will watch a modern film twice.

As you say...

Great graphics and great gameplay can co-exist in the same game!

So why doesn't it?

I see lots of games with great graphics, but the games are not great, so the gamer has no incentive to still be playing it 3 months later.
Maybe THAT is the plan. Make games that have such low retention qualities, that the producers know you will be back soon to get something shiny and new yet again.

Screw that. I am not here to make graphics designers rich.

But it is indeed a free market. And I don't object to that. But I do have to laugh when a person can't see that they are being sold crud yet again and again.

I have been playing Steel Panthers for hmm a number of years now. Some think it is not enough. Well I will likely still be playing it till Combat Leader comes out.
But if Combat Leader was not on the horizon, you can just assume I would be content to watch yet another 3d game come and go in 6 months time to be played briefly and then forgotten.

The only reason I want CL is for its modern software running properties. I am not that needy of flashy new graphics. SP is a DOS era game, and that is all that's wrong with it to me.

As my mom often said, there are none so blind as those that don't want to see.
I am happy to let producers make yet another graphics before game value game. And equally happy to let the gamer buy yet another game that is graphics first and game play maybe. It's not my money being spent after all.

Sadly the quality in wargames is not job 1 much any more.
It is easier to make a great playing game look good, than make a good looking game play well after the fact.

I don't have a problem with graphics, but I do think people that think game play is being seriously considered need to wake up.

If you are not playing the game 6 months after you bought it, then there was nothing great about it at all.
In the mid 80's ASL was sold full price. It is still sold full price a decade later. That is because it it still a great game.
It has never sold massive print runs, but then it is also not hyped mainstream transient garbage.

I often wonder if the consumer even thinks when they buy these computer game titles. Maybe the consumer has more money than brains?




BrubakerII -> (6/16/2003 4:36:29 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]I often wonder if the consumer even thinks when they buy these computer game titles. Maybe the consumer has more money than brains? [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmm, certainly more money.

What I don;t understand is if you look at 3 fundamentals of a product: quality, priceand availability, modern wargames certainly fulfill the second two. The first is subjective.

I think also we need to lok at exactly what the demands of a modern wargamer are? We are old (jaded?) campaigners that grew up with Panzerblitz etc and probably rate our expectatins based on those experiences. A twenty year old would probably base his opionions on Sid Meieir's Decision in the Desert' or similar. Its all subjective.

Another point. After all these years of counter based wargames, I think the industry has reached 90% or more of its potential. What's the one thing then that might separate one game from another? [All those that said graphics take one step forward].

Brubaker




Ian Packham -> (6/16/2003 6:08:10 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]
Great graphics and great gameplay can co-exist in the same game!

So why doesn't it?

I see lots of games with great graphics, but the games are not great, so the gamer has no incentive to still be playing it 3 months later.
Maybe THAT is the plan. Make games that have such low retention qualities, that the producers know you will be back soon to get something shiny and new yet again.

Screw that. I am not here to make graphics designers rich.

But it is indeed a free market. And I don't object to that. But I do have to laugh when a person can't see that they are being sold crud yet again and again. [/B][/QUOTE]

Great gameplay and graphics do co-exist in other games (I am playing Splinter Cell at the moment which is a good example) but the only wargame example I can recall for great graphics/
gameplay was CC2 - which being released in 1997 was not yet affected by the 3D craze that followed.

Tactical games (even standard RTS games) have the longest play life for sure because developing strategies requires brain power and not fast eye/hand coordination required for most action games. Both are addictive but whereas action games gives the player an adrenalin fix, strategy games are more a passion (obsession?)

Many people like the idea that they just play a game for a few months, perfect the game system, and then move onto the next challenge. Our preference is to stick one game and dwell on the infinite strategies. One type of gameplay is no better than the other - its just a matter of choice.

But people do like to see something new and different - people want fashion. Just rehashing the same game but with different war operations is not attractive to many gamers. As Brubaker says a wargame with great graphics and gameplay will be something completely different, in fact it will be head and shoulders above the competition.

This thread is about whether wargames can be mainstream and the answer is yes but graphics are essential not optional. The vast majority of gamers are aged between 10-35 years of age - it is this group of people that developers must target and engage their preferences.




Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (6/16/2003 9:09:38 PM)

Hmm

as you say....

The vast majority of gamers are aged between 10-35 years of age - it is this group of people that developers must target and engage their preferences.

The vast majority of "wargamers" call people in their 30's "younguns".

That said, if you want to sell wargames to wargamers, then you have to decide, do you want to sell wargames, or action games.

If the 10 to 35 crowd tell you they won't play your wargame, then it's time to accept the reality of your situation eh.

I AM a mainstream wargamer. A mainstream wargamer happens to be on average above 30 years old is all.

A mainstream "gamer" that is below 30, is basically not always interested in being a mainstream "wargamer".

The reason we have people attempting to add RTS style and FPS style games to our term "wargame", is so they can artificially claim those players as part of the wargaming audience. Perhaps therein lies the trouble.

You can't sell an eskimo an igloo, and you might never be able to sell a wargame, to a "gamer".
When I was a kid, I was interested in models, wargames and history. As I recall though, I was only interested in those subjects in the manner most kids are.
My devotion to the hobbies mentioned, did not get to where it is today, until I was in my mid to late 20's. And I was most assuredly not a typical individual either.

Most our unaware of this interesting detail. Here in Canada, we have the Army Cadets, a youth option with strong military tones. It has but one function though, inspite of the potentially seemingly obvious look. It is designed solely to have a youth thinking of the military when they reach the age where they might join.

With that philosophy in mind, the gaming companies don't need to do more than they are doing now. we merely need to make military like games fun like until they are older and decide they would like to play the more serious stuff.




riverbravo -> (6/17/2003 12:45:28 AM)

Do you not want to see the advancement of wargames?Or do you want to consider yourself an elitest because no one in there right mind knows a wargame and good graphics can go hand in hand?

Anyone who considers themself a wargamer should be overjoyed with the fact that companies are giving wargames a good shot and not holding back on anything.

Lets just stay in the stoneage and carve our own dice and miniatures and handraw all the chits,been there done it.

I like a good game of ASL or Battleground WW2 but when computers are concerned,push it far as you can go.

Whats the point of making a hex game on the PC anyway in todays world of realtime,ok I can see hex MP games.But basically youre just repeating youreself,"lets add some new units"How many of you suckers have fallen for that one......lol.

I say the target wargame age .......25 and up.




Ian Packham -> (6/17/2003 10:51:59 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]The vast majority of "wargamers" call people in their 30's "younguns".

That said, if you want to sell wargames to wargamers, then you have to decide, do you want to sell wargames, or action games.

If the 10 to 35 crowd tell you they won't play your wargame, then it's time to accept the reality of your situation eh.

I AM a mainstream wargamer. A mainstream wargamer happens to be on average above 30 years old is all.

A mainstream "gamer" that is below 30, is basically not always interested in being a mainstream "wargamer".

The reason we have people attempting to add RTS style and FPS style games to our term "wargame", is so they can artificially claim those players as part of the wargaming audience. Perhaps therein lies the trouble.[/B][/QUOTE]

Which just makes you an "old fashioned hex" wargamer not a mainstream wargamer. Your definition of a wargame is that which you grow up with as child/young man. Ask today's youngsters to define a wargame and they would mention MOHAA, Battlefield 1942, C&C Generals, Total War and if you are lucky CC or CM if they happen to have come across these games. Would any even mention ASL?

RTS and FPS games may lack the tactical subtleties of hex games but slowly but surely they are becoming more realistic and incorporate more tactical gameplay. If EYSA has overcome the problems inherent in GIC then it will be a game that can be enjoyed by a mainstream audience. However since the game will not be hyped its exposure will be limited to the wargaming community so sales will likely remain modest.

We need a game which will leap into the mainstream gaming community so that people will take notice of full blown tactical games....and that takes eye candy and promotion.




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