RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60 (Soviet) No MarauderPL

RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60 (Soviet) No MarauderPL (Full Version)

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Crackaces -> RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60 (Soviet) No MarauderPL (10/18/2018 2:08:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS quote: ORIGINAL: xhoel Are you bombing airbases aggressively or are you using the VVS in a defensive stance? no & no Airbase attacks are not my primary focus as the loss ratios aren't very favorable. Some will argue that there are plenty of aircraft available to lose, but I prefer to use them to support the army where opportunities exist. I have not seen too many games go into 1943, but I might propose that the Soviet Air force is ill designed to cover the tactical battlespace. If the Soviet puts Fighter ranges over the tactical battlespace: 1. German can use recon to find the longest range the fighters will react 2. The German then does "fighter sweeps" forcing the Soviet to fly to the longest ranges with a positive EV (Expected Value) in kills. Then 3 … 3a. Soviet player places airbases in the Tactical battlespace .. Stukas smash airfields no fighters left 3b. Soviet player places airbases outside of tactical bomber range but within escorted fighter range still a poor result for the Soviets 3c. Soviet player places airbases outside of German fighter range (point 2 is particuarly effective in this case) and unescorted bombers kill damaged fighters on the ground. Worse in this case the Soviet airforce is divided in protecting strategic industry and trying in vain to project power over the tactical battlespace. Soviets lose … Then .. if bombers react during German attacks they will be unescorted or poorly escorted and take additional kills. So it might be best to use the Soviets on the attack within the tactical battlespace where bases are farther back and fighters are defending vulnerable strategic targets. The 2 ground bombings per turn are quite effective because the bombings induce disruption which becomes fatigue and 1/3 of fatigue applies to reducing CV ..though not directly tactically helping What I want to see is this AAR get to 1943 where the Soviet Morale should be better. When I see German vs Soviet air battles at high message levels I see a lot of "4 planes from group XYZ turnaround" That means they use miles and fuel, are subject to damage, and do nothing to contribute I think this accounts for the risk of attacking German Airbases in 1941 - mid 1942

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60 (Soviet) No MarauderPL (10/18/2018 2:21:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Crackaces quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS German casualties are never remotely close to what was experienced historically in weeks 1-24. Everything M60 brought up is true. I emphasize the sentence above for good measure. Statistics N=2: Baseline for discussion "Turns 1 - 25" According to Wikipedia (and references within) German causalities: Killed 186,542 Soviet 586,952 German AFV's Lost: 2,735 Soviet: 20,500 AFV's 2x3 Casualties (+1 Soviet) German Causulies Killed: 144,998 Soviet 624,370 German AVF's Lost: 2,493 Soviet 13,978 8MP Casaulties:(no +1 attack) German Killed 132,014 Soviet 493,037 AFV's Lost 2,257 Soviet 14,443 Using the logic in multiple AAR's and forums .. it looks like the Soviets are superman <smile> This is a game not a similation. Two major battles where the German's got their clock cleaned in the intial moments of Operation Barbarossa are not going to happen because of the combat engine. (Battle of Brody for example). Otherwise at least these two games produced reasonable results to "historcal" (besides the superman Soviet tanks) turns 1-25. This is just a thought .. but I might propose this constant balance discussion in every AAR is ruining the game. Instead of games compleating players are rationalizing "the game is borked" then one could say that has an effect on prospective buyers of the game who will wait unit the game is "balanced" What I am most interested in this AAR is if M60 applies any lessons learned from the 8MP game for Soviet air, and does it make a difference. Ok back into lurking mode. Great..... (rolls eyes), two games referenced are team games played by new or inexperienced players(I mean no disrespect here but not exactly what M60 referenced in what he wrote) Secondly, if, "This is a game not a simulation" as you wrote then why in the world did you go through the whole post in the first place? Wait, I don't want to know because it was a fit for your agenda. Third, and this is the big one, if M60 wants to discuss anything in his AAR he is free to do so no matter WTH it is. M60 has been playing this game from the opening stages. You can look up his AAR's from years ago and read them. When M60 posts observations about the progress this game has gone in it would behoove us to listen since they are more than likely correct. I personally value M60's thoughts & these writing should not be so easily dismissed as you are trying to do so in this post. I think doing this is "borking" M60 when posting items of this nature. One day you will wake up from your drug induced German bias. I hope......

M60A3TTS -> RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60 (Soviet) No MarauderPL (10/18/2018 3:40:50 PM)
@HLYA. Everyone is entitled to their opinions here. No personal attacks please. The game is a simulation at some level. That is my opinion.

M60A3TTS -> RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60 (Soviet) No MarauderPL (10/18/2018 3:41:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS quote: ORIGINAL: Crackaces I have not seen too many games go into 1943, but I might propose that the Soviet Air force is ill designed to cover the tactical battlespace. If the Soviet puts Fighter ranges over the tactical battlespace: 1. German can use recon to find the longest range the fighters will react 2. The German then does "fighter sweeps" forcing the Soviet to fly to the longest ranges with a positive EV (Expected Value) in kills. Then 3 … 3a. Soviet player places airbases in the Tactical battlespace .. Stukas smash airfields no fighters left Interesting. So then you believe the current game version that increases the AA support units does not impact such a game plan? [image]https://i.imgur.com/gz6POqD.jpg[/image]

M60A3TTS -> RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60 (Soviet) No MarauderPL (10/18/2018 3:42:30 PM)
This will be seen later in a larger pic. Here is one example where concentrated AA looks to be having an impact in this version. [image]https://i.imgur.com/BUV0Z4S.jpg[/image]

SparkleyTits -> RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60 (Soviet) No MarauderPL (10/18/2018 3:43:50 PM)
Yeah I would like to see a bit more Axis manpower losses in 41 and a lot more Axis AFV losses after 41 In current version because of how morale works it is for all intents and purposes an automatic affair to have a very dominant Axis force in 42 bar any Axis mishaps I think with a bit more degredation in Axis manpower it could alleviate that and bring in more choices/plans/clashing for both sides

SparkleyTits -> RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60 (Soviet) No MarauderPL (10/18/2018 4:07:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS This will be seen later in a larger pic. Here is one example where concentrated AA looks to be having an impact in this version. [image]https://i.imgur.com/BUV0Z4S.jpg[/image] Well any planes flying a mission that way will be swiftly sent back to their airbase before firing a bloody shot!

chaos45 -> RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60 (Soviet) No MarauderPL (10/18/2018 5:11:41 PM)
The big issue is I'm pretty sure AA will be reduced/nerfed slightly in the next patch. As some OOB inflation happened to the soviet AA units and they will be getting a reduction is my understanding. As well Im pretty sure both sides will suffer an overall reduction in effectiveness of AA fire. So not sure relying on a tactic sure to be nerfed in the next patch is all that great.

M60A3TTS -> RE: M60A3TTS Full of Hot Air - MarauderPL (Axis) vs M60 (Soviet) No MarauderPL (10/18/2018 6:11:46 PM)
Don't know, I hadn't heard that. I do know that with a starting German air morale of 90 and a Soviet air morale of 50, it's difficult enough.

M60A3TTS -> Game over in 12 turns (10/21/2018 3:15:08 PM)
Moscow was surrounded on turn 12 with over 400,000 trapped. Based on the OOB, there would have been more Germans than Soviets after that was cleaned up. [image]https://i.imgur.com/OV2sS6X.jpg[/image] [image]https://i.imgur.com/16zvwyl.jpg[/image] [image]https://i.imgur.com/qi4qZ9M.jpg[/image] Marauder is free to post in the thread now. I may have comments later, but nothing further for the moment.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (10/21/2018 4:46:28 PM)
What are you final thoughts about the game at the moment M60? What could you have done differently?

chaos45 -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (10/21/2018 4:57:33 PM)
Interested to hear opinions...first week of SEP and germans have enough fuel to completely encircle Moscow....seems abit much. Despite what many are saying that German supply to is to restricted.

MarauderPL -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (10/21/2018 5:17:30 PM)
I would like to thank M60 for a great game, it was very fun to play. I'll post some comments in the coming days, hopefully when I find the resilience to type some of my strategic ideas behind this incarnation of Barbarossa. As to the fuel, I've done 2 HQBU's on the northern pincer last turn - these 2 PzCorps had about 40-45 MP, one remaining PzCorp had about 25-35, but was partially over the Volga/Lama river. The southern pincer could barely get over the Moskva river. The encirclement was mostly possible due to low CV values of Soviet units in the area.

SparkleyTits -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (10/21/2018 5:38:53 PM)
Congrats

STEF78 -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (10/21/2018 6:23:22 PM)
Moscow completely surrounded on turn 12 ????? Nice done but something is going weird with WITE.... There is not much to do against a german player perfectly aware of the logitics keys. Not speaking of Ukraine opening. Desesperating... Congrats to both of you and thanks for sharing.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (10/21/2018 7:12:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: STEF78 Moscow completely surrounded on turn 12 ????? Nice done but something is going weird with WITE.... There is not much to do against a german player perfectly aware of the logitics keys. Not speaking of Ukraine opening. Desesperating... Congrats to both of you and thanks for sharing. Don't know how much longer the community is going to kid themselves that the status quo is good. You almost have to be a miracle worker to survive 41.

Stelteck -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (10/21/2018 8:08:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: STEF78 Moscow completely surrounded on turn 12 ????? Nice done but something is going weird with WITE.... There is not much to do against a german player perfectly aware of the logitics keys. Not speaking of Ukraine opening. Desesperating... Congrats to both of you and thanks for sharing. Congrats both of you. Stephane you would have taken moscow in september 1941 two if i did not got really lucky by having the soviet partisans blowing up the railway for one month....

MarauderPL -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (10/22/2018 11:44:17 AM)
Just to start, I came to this game with a few assumptions. First, I'm an average tactician and will do a lot of subprime unit micro - and that has been basically confirmed, M60 even posted a screen with all the "Held" results ;) Second, to overcome this deficiency, I need to step up with the operational and strategy layer. I asked myself what was the most dangerous and irritating operational situation to deal with when I was playing the Soviet side. The answer is obvious: wide front with motorized formations behind the infantry. The Soviets need to present a continuous front and be strong everywhere, while the Germans pick the weakest spot in the defensive line and break through there. So the operational plan was to widen the front as much as possible on every opportunity. And it has worked like a charm, the Soviets do not have enough units to present a long AND strong line of defence. On the more strategical level my main objectives were Leningrad and Moscow. The fight over the Ukraine is tempting, but lack of supply behind the Dnepr till turn 10+ makes it very wasteful. So after initial attacks 2nd PzGruppe was switched back to AGC as soon as possible. Note that the destruction of the Red Army was set as a secondary objective. So Panzer incursions were mostly used to unhinge Soviet positions and force them to retreat and not to shoot for encirclements. The reasoning behind this was to gain terrain quickly and threaten the important Soviet objectives. With that happening the opposing player would be set with a decision - to abandon important cities for free or to fight in unfavourable conditions. Last but not least, the air game. I intended to skip it completely, but after hearing M60 wants to put it as a central point of his AAR I tried to play along. Unfortunately, after few turns I came back to my original idea ;) The fatigue bug in national reserve makes the Kabuki dance ineffective but still time-consuming. The amount of AA and its effectiveness makes airfield bombing extremely dangerous. So in my hands the Luftwaffe got degraded entirely to combat support role. As long as I was able to bomb a given hex twice and fly ground support in the important battles I was happy with the airgame. From what I observed from my point of view, M60 finally also didn't engage in air war much, I was usually seeing a couple of bombing raids here and there. How the game developed? Well, looking at the result it went just fantastic :) I have the screenshots at home so will not post them right now, but on various occasions the Soviets played right into my plan, abandoning very good defensive terrain/positions and letting me widen the front considerably. My plan for operation Typhoon (assaulting Moscow) was to use a wide north encirclement, at the same time threatening thrust further north to the Finnish border and cutting off Leningrad area. Capturing cities like Torzhok and Vyshny Volochek was key to my plan. You've seen the result. I'll try to explain it more on some examples later. Hopefully it is more or less understandable, but I'm more than happy to further discuss any details, concepts etc. (here or in discord or by PM) :) Sorry for the long post - and no potato ;)

Telemecus -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (10/22/2018 1:43:08 PM)
Congrats to both and thanks for the AAR. My big regret at not seeing this go on longer was I was hoping to see more on the focus on the air war. I hope M60A3TTS can give us more of their insights in the next one. quote: ORIGINAL: MarauderPL The answer is obvious: wide front with motorized formations behind the infantry. The Soviets need to present a continuous front and be strong everywhere, while the Germans pick the weakest spot in the defensive line and break through there. So the operational plan was to widen the front as much as possible on every opportunity. And it has worked like a charm, the Soviets do not have enough units to present a long AND strong line of defence. On the more strategical level my main objectives were Leningrad and Moscow. The fight over the Ukraine is tempting, but lack of supply behind the Dnepr till turn 10+ makes it very wasteful. So after initial attacks 2nd PzGruppe was switched back to AGC as soon as possible. Note that the destruction of the Red Army was set as a secondary objective. So Panzer incursions were mostly used to unhinge Soviet positions and force them to retreat and not to shoot for encirclements. The reasoning behind this was to gain terrain quickly and threaten the important Soviet objectives. With that happening the opposing player would be set with a decision - to abandon important cities for free or to fight in unfavourable conditions. I have to say I think this is the way to go. Having learned lesson 101 as Axis to do encirclements, the next stage I think is to somehow unlearn the lesson. But I would also argue this is just setting up the bigger encirclements of a future turn. You both deserve credit for a game with thought and ideas put into action.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (10/22/2018 5:54:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus Congrats to both and thanks for the AAR. My big regret at not seeing this go on longer was I was hoping to see more on the focus on the air war. I hope M60A3TTS can give us more of their insights in the next one. quote: ORIGINAL: MarauderPL The answer is obvious: wide front with motorized formations behind the infantry. The Soviets need to present a continuous front and be strong everywhere, while the Germans pick the weakest spot in the defensive line and break through there. So the operational plan was to widen the front as much as possible on every opportunity. And it has worked like a charm, the Soviets do not have enough units to present a long AND strong line of defence. On the more strategical level my main objectives were Leningrad and Moscow. The fight over the Ukraine is tempting, but lack of supply behind the Dnepr till turn 10+ makes it very wasteful. So after initial attacks 2nd PzGruppe was switched back to AGC as soon as possible. Note that the destruction of the Red Army was set as a secondary objective. So Panzer incursions were mostly used to unhinge Soviet positions and force them to retreat and not to shoot for encirclements. The reasoning behind this was to gain terrain quickly and threaten the important Soviet objectives. With that happening the opposing player would be set with a decision - to abandon important cities for free or to fight in unfavourable conditions. I have to say I think this is the way to go. Having learned lesson 101 as Axis to do encirclements, the next stage I think is to somehow unlearn the lesson. But I would also argue this is just setting up the bigger encirclements of a future turn. You both deserve credit for a game with thought and ideas put into action. What "if" the Soviets don't retreat?

Telemecus -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (10/22/2018 5:58:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain What "if" the Soviets don't retreat? I am eagerly awaiting on other current AARs to learn! [:D]

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (10/22/2018 6:18:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain What "if" the Soviets don't retreat? I am eagerly awaiting on other current AARs to learn! [:D] I have no lesson, "*at the moment*", just a question what would any German player do if the Soviets hugged them. Granted the average experience of a Soviet unit the first 17 turns is in 20ish range for those turns(many starting in the low teens). So seems a pretty easy answer since "hasty" attacking everything in site with German armor/moto is the thing to do with extremely low loses and high loses to the Soviets. But what do others do? On the other hand I have seen too many times retreating as the Soviets ends up worse than if you stayed. When the Soviets retreat the Germans can pick and choose their prey, along with an entry point. At least when the Soviets stay close they can semi dictate (extremely small) a defense. Forcing the Germans to use up PZ/Moto units MP's to move those units if the Infantry isn't close at hand OR the wrong mixture of infantry in the area. There is a science to how much German infantry you need to accomplish certain things. If that is not adhered to the German player is going to be hampered.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (10/22/2018 6:29:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain What "if" the Soviets don't retreat? I am eagerly awaiting on other current AARs to learn! [:D] I have no lesson, "*at the moment*", just a question what would any German player do if the Soviets hugged them. Granted the average experience of a Soviet unit the first 17 turns is in 20ish range for those turns(many starting in the low teens). So seems a pretty easy answer since "hasty" attacking everything in site with German armor/moto is the thing to do with extremely low loses and high loses to the Soviets. But what do others do? On the other hand I have seen too many times retreating as the Soviets ends up worse than if you stayed. When the Soviets retreat the Germans can pick and choose their prey, along with an entry point. At least when the Soviets stay close they can semi dictate (extremely small) a defense. Forcing the Germans to use up PZ/Moto units MP's to move those units if the Infantry isn't close at hand OR the wrong mixture of infantry in the area. There is a science to how much German infantry you need to accomplish certain things. If that is not adhered to the German player is going to be hampered. As Chaos45 said long ago in a post, I don't remember the post but it is ingrained in my head. The post said something on the lines of, "The Soviets are fighting more against the German MP's than you are against German units" That is the whole reason for this question. I know that is how I have been playing my games along with never putting more than one unit per hex (yes, I messed up and stacked on one of my turns and I paid the price. I only stack now if I want to hold something)

MarauderPL -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (10/25/2018 1:10:19 PM)
I think an answer to the question on the "hugging" Soviets is to create a situation where the Germans have infantry up front and mobile formations in the rear. With wide enough front and HQBU in the pocket you can go for a large encirclement. You basically try to recreate the T1. There is no need to hurry - dealing a KO blow is worth spending some turns on. The Soviets need to be very flexible in my opinion - both constant withdrawal and constant fight is a suicide. The operational plan needs to adapt to the current situation and needs to be reassessed every turn and in every area. Additionally, in the current state of the game when playing the no bonus ruleset, I suspect the Soviet player needs to set up planned sacrifices of his units (armies) just to win time. Prolonged fights to re-close a medium sized pocket is very time consuming for the Germans and disallows HQBUs and fuel refills for mobile units forming the spearhead. I would look for opportunities there (but have not tested it in any way - just a speculation).

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (10/25/2018 1:22:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarauderPL I think an answer to the question on the "hugging" Soviets is to create a situation where the Germans have infantry up front and mobile formations in the rear. With wide enough front and HQBU in the pocket you can go for a large encirclement. You basically try to recreate the T1. There is no need to hurry - dealing a KO blow is worth spending some turns on. The Soviets need to be very flexible in my opinion - both constant withdrawal and constant fight is a suicide. The operational plan needs to adapt to the current situation and needs to be reassessed every turn and in every area. Additionally, in the current state of the game when playing the no bonus ruleset, I suspect the Soviet player needs to set up planned sacrifices of his units (armies) just to win time. Prolonged fights to re-close a medium sized pocket is very time consuming for the Germans and disallows HQBUs and fuel refills for mobile units forming the spearhead. I would look for opportunities there (but have not tested it in any way - just a speculation). I agree with you. You have to play the ebb and flow of the Axis's HQ buildup. You have to either know or best guess these ebb & flows. On the sacrifice I concur too. I know I try and force feed the "crappy" Soviet divisions to the Germans keeping the good stuff in the 3rd or 4th line. But yeah this is right on par how I think too.

M60A3TTS -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (11/1/2018 4:49:59 PM)
I wanted to take some time before posting a few thoughts on this game. Marauder played the game at the level I would expect from an experienced player. The giant pocket around Moscow is something that was unavoidable unless I had willingly retreated in the prior turn which was an option. I had pulled the key industry out already, so what remained to be lost would not have been devastating. But I have seen how even after Moscow is surrounded, the Axis player can just keep rolling east with the logistics available, and there seemed little point. Many of my units coming on line as reinforcements were in the mid to high 20's and morale in the upper 30's. These couldn't stop things from sliding quickly and though I may have made a mistake or two along the way, there was a feeling of helplessness knowing that there was no real way to stop this. I posted for another game, limiting the southern Axis T1 movement to 30MP as an attempt to bring some balance back. I don't think any future patches, if there are any of significance, will address this issue. I see Stef and S-T in their game are going in a similar direction. That is the sort of thing which is needed now. Even a Soviet +1 and regular blizzard does not address the level of imbalance that has been seen now in the recent AARs. The whole Lvov pocket debate is as old as the game. I would maintain it is a sensible solution to just get rid of it for the following reasons. 1. It does not touch the basic game settings, so the Soviet side doesn't have to be given an advantage to all their units. 2. Rail capacity is still the same, and so the Soviet player is still going to not have enough to get every unit it wants to safety. 3. What fuel the German panzers don't spend in the south on Turn 1 will be available to them the next turn, so to a degree they may be able to make up for the limited movement on T1 quickly. 4. It forces the Axis player to make real choices rather than follow a cookie-cutter template. Does an Axis player make use of the full 50MP by having armor of AGC go the traditional route, or does it move a certain amount to the south and take a smaller pocket? In this way, I believe people would see some real variation here.

HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (11/1/2018 5:03:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS Many of my units coming on line as reinforcements were in the mid to high 20's and morale in the upper 30's. These couldn't stop things from sliding quickly and though I may have made a mistake or two along the way, there was a feeling of helplessness knowing that there was no real way to stop this. There were less than 15 Division with experience of 20 to low 30s that I counted that came online for the Soviets. Most of those were in the South. Of these like you said their Morale is horrid being in the 20's and 30's. I had numerous divisions starting with 7 experience across the board and even after a few turns they are worthless except for a MP speedbump

chaos45 -> RE: Game over in 12 turns (11/2/2018 10:18:26 AM)
Interesting been saying for months now the extended Lvov move is one of the big problems, esp when you add in port re-supply in the south-- this is an easy fix for the patch team to just add more fort units or move some of the soviet units more east in the south....another option is limit AGS MP on T1. The patch team has slowed down Soviet reinforcement units to much with the added delay timer, and made their exp/morale much to crappy to contend with how fast the Germans can advance. This has been an issue good German players have been exploiting for several patches now. Esp with the experience change to 1 per turn, these incoming soviet units not only arrive later than they used to but now also have absolutely no combat value by the time you have to use them.

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