Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (Full Version)

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Dmondragon75 -> Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (9/25/2018 10:15:30 AM)

In my allied PBEM game its april 42 and USA is around 60% (axis player used at least 5 chits). As we all know, Germany declared the war on Jenks 4 days after Pearl Harbour, due to crazy Adolf fanatism. Game Script should be changed in a historical way (USA enters the war latest january 42), its a complete nonsense to have Usa-Jap war and rest of axis in peace.
If Germans had Sugar (Speer-Manstein mixture) as a leader, they could have won the war, but I feel bit of Hitlers delusions and fanatism should be involved ingame as axis penalty in many situations.



Markiss -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (9/25/2018 5:27:52 PM)

I don't think you can make the axis player play Germany foolishly on the count of Adolf Hitler. I believe that the whole point of this game is to allow people to choose their own paths, not to be locked into historical timelines.
On the other hand, the use of major power diplo can create situations that make no sense historically, like the one you mention. Hopefully it will become an option that can be turned off, I know it has been suggested.



warspite1 -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (9/25/2018 5:52:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dmondragon75

If Germans had Sugar (Speer-Manstein mixture) as a leader, they could have won the war.....
warspite1

How?



Dmondragon75 -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (9/26/2018 9:44:32 AM)

Do U think sugar would order 6th army to leave Volga positions north of Stalingrad (which would paralize nice ammount of soviet industry)and go for unimportant Stalingrad?Do U think Sugar would place his bet on morphine Reiichmarschal to supply 6th army? Do U think Sugar would order new jets Mess 262 to be prepared to use as bombers? Etc etc, beside that he was crazy, Hitler was also a moron.



Sugar -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (9/26/2018 12:11:07 PM)

Sugar wouldn't have DoWed the SU, because he thinks war was lost from that moment on at least. He also finds it not be helpfull to think of the leading Nazis as of crazy lunatics; what they did was logical within their ideology, they lost and committed the worst possible crimes against humanity because of their ideological perception of reality. Turned out their perception was completely wrong, and thus their defeat inevitable.




Ktonos -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (9/26/2018 3:15:20 PM)

The decision to DoW USA had to do with 2 thinks,

The main thing was that by DoWing US, Germany could shoot back at US destroyers protecting convoys to Britain. With a naval power on the other side of the world committing much of the US naval assets, there ought to be an advantage in penetrating US convoys.

The second thing was the Germany and Japan had the tripartite pact which was a defensive pact primarily directed against the USA. Despite Japan bombing Pearl Harbor, it was the US that declared war the next day, activating the pact. This probably was just a justification for reason #1, but in any case things aren't as simple as "he was stupid he did a blunder".



nnason -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (9/27/2018 9:57:22 AM)

All,
SC is a simulation of the battle not a recreation! A recreation would have the same result each time and thus what would be the purpose of playing.

SC allows us to play with alternate strategies to see if we can do better.

There are at least three player created versions with slightly different ideas about how history might have gone. If two players want to have a "Hilter" rule then agree on the terms (house rulkes) before the game and play on.



sillyflower -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (9/27/2018 9:35:11 PM)

No diplo vs major powers 'should' be the only house rule needed. I use inverted commas as it's a bit disappointing if axis does this. Happened to me once axis maxed out vs USA + USSR so I just abandoned the game. I told my opponent that, while he was allowed to do it by the game rules, it took all the skill out of the game



Ktonos -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (9/28/2018 12:31:53 AM)

imho I disagree. This is grand strategy not operational game. Diplo vs majors should be in the mix as it was back then. Maybe cap Axis diplo (I think its already caped for USA & USSR at 2?).
I had a game as Allies where on turn 3 I checked the Diplo expenditures and Axis had spent 450. Strong indication that he was targeting a major. I didn't counter, despite I could.
2 turns later, he got a good USSR hit. Didn't counter. I never countered. USSR was at 8% until fall 1941 when he did Barbarossa. It isn't the game's fault. It was mine for not countering.



James Taylor -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/1/2018 10:53:03 PM)

Diplomacy directed towards the major combatants has always been a part of real life, it stays in the game.



Dmondragon75 -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/2/2018 7:40:47 AM)

Maybe USA industrial production should grow larger after Pearl Harbour, and diplo chits on USA costs to be twice as expensive.
There was no realistic chance of keeping USA out of the war or increased war production after japanese declaration of the war, whichever diplomatic action Nazis might have taken.



James Taylor -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/2/2018 3:06:22 PM)

I tend to agree with you dragon, but without the benefit of hindsight, I don't think this was a done deal by a longshot. There was strong popular opinion to seek retribution for Pearl Harbor and without a German DoW things could have unfolded differently, especially the timeline.

Depends on the German diplomatic activity towards the US just as the game depicts with the chits. Sure, after the revelations of the "Final Solution" I'm with the eventual US directed "Germany First" policy, but just how long the propaganda machine could keep this in the cloud(gray area) is subject to debate.

Strong opinions from Nimitz, King, McArthur, and the populace, as mentioned, presented a strong case for concentrating US armed strength against Japan right now(shortly after PH).


On the other side of the coin there was of course Roosevelt, Marshall, Stark and Arnold lobbying for the German emphasis. They of course had help from the British propaganda efforts, but my belief is there was no guarantee they would acquire their wishes of the "Germany First" option.

SC is a game we play about the possibilities that could have occurred during WW2, bounded by real life constraints. With our knowledge of actually what happened, it is difficult to simulate the unknown that the original belligerents surely felt, that atmosphere of uncertainty.

The diplomatic mechanics that we have at our disposal in SC helps create that environment.



Sugar -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/2/2018 4:37:41 PM)

I used it the first time in this game, and it just was so successfull because of my esteemed opponent's nearly complete ignorance of Diplo.

One time offer: for few more than 500 MPPs for Brits and Sovyets you can completely let the air out of Uber-Diplo. Or you could instead ignore the facts and blame it on the game mechancis.




Dmondragon75 -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/7/2018 9:30:38 AM)

Sugar there is no realistic possibility for UK or Soviets to counter your USA diplo chits due to the constant lack of MPPs, specially for Soviets.



Sugar -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/7/2018 10:49:29 AM)

There`s no realistic way to win without the US at war. An investment of 850 MPPs alltogether is far from unrealistic. You have to plant before the harvest, that's how the game works.

And if you wouldn`t use the US-Navy to spot my subs, the Isolationists wouldn't call to bring them home every single turn.



Dmondragon75 -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/7/2018 2:22:29 PM)

So isolationists also decrease war readiness for USA if naval troops in Europe? Didnt know that :(
As I previously mentioned, there s no way USSR could spare some MPP on USA diplo, Uk could have, but at earlier stage.Its not a matter of plant before harvest, if U decide to go uber diplo with UK/USSR there s no way to cope with germans in research.
I Still think this game mechanic is broken and should be fixed, since USA is at the war with Japs, there s no way their military research would be so low, dunno how but something in this direction:
- purchasing diplo chits on USA after Pearl harbour x2 more expensive and have as twice less chance to succeed
- despite low war readiness for European theatre, USA should be gained some ammount of research chits for free to cope with german tech advance (obviously USa in already in the war so it would be pretty much logic to divert its industry/tech in that direction. This is European theatre, but one cannot ignore fact that USA is at the war with German ally. USA politicians would be pretty much aware if Soviet Union capitulates that USA doesnt have enough strenght to protect UK.In our game its may 1943 and USA is still on 70% despite Moscow/Stalingrad surrounded?



Sugar -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/7/2018 4:08:04 PM)

Uber-Diplo on Axis side is a disadvantage for the Allies, because it's harder for them to afford the counter. To speak as if the game was broken is a complete exaggeration. 850 MPPs aren't unaffordable, especially as the Axis has paid the same.



Dmondragon75 -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/7/2018 4:34:34 PM)

I obviously used wrong words. Ofcoz game isnt broken, game is a true masterpiece which should simulate realistic outcomes of ww2. In order to do that, I think USA needs some mechanics change for the case axis player goes agressively with diplo chits. Not saying that axis investment should be declined, but harder obviously. I think U ve got 5 diplo hits on USA in 10-15 turns?



Sugar -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/7/2018 5:05:15 PM)

quote:

game is a true masterpiece which should simulate realistic outcomes of ww2.
No, neither a simalation nor a sanbbox. Never was and hopefully never will be. The game offers equal chances for both sides to win, considering the outcome of the first tourney.

Diplo works as intended, every chit gives a certain chance to fire, and every counter negates all probabilities.



Dmondragon75 -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/7/2018 7:46:11 PM)

Yet this game simulates ww2 events quite handy. U cannot really say its got no simulation aspects and doing it quite well :) However, because of the nature of the game, axis uberdiplo should be possible to counter with event which would cost allies far less than 875 MPP of axis investment



Sugar -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/7/2018 8:59:03 PM)

Ah I see. You could choose the option to play without any diplo, but you prefer to play only without that part you don`t like.



Dmondragon75 -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/7/2018 9:09:30 PM)

No, but by the part which is historicaly realistic



Dorky8 -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/7/2018 9:14:29 PM)

Hitler declared war on the US, they were allied with Japan. Why this isn't represented in the game I don't know. The whole major country diplomacy is a huge flaw in the game. I thought it was going to be changed.



Schokolokos -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/8/2018 5:03:11 AM)

Just add a new script: USA leading towards Allies 5-8% each turn after the date of 11 December 1941.

but many players here are crying too much, not even trying to counter Diplo.



BPINisBACK -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/8/2018 7:52:17 AM)

Maybe i am wrong... but sometime it seems that Sugar is a problem and not only the best player!!!
[:D][:D][:D]
Sugar doesn't cheat, he plays in a way that i don't like (i am more "chaotic") but... he is fair.
Everyone could try this tactics they are well known... But i am pretty sure that any of us will do it as good as he does.
If axis spend MPP on USA they are not building a big army for Russia... Nothing is free.
He also win with allies. What's the problem?
In a game there are "always" a bunch of people who master the game... the rest of us... play in a separate league... Just enjoy the game, guys!!



Dmondragon75 -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/8/2018 10:29:18 AM)

This isnt post about Sugar or a game against him, he is best by mile, doesnt chear and is a fair player, as U wrote well.
This is post about game mechanics which might be changed due to the historical circumstances.
If one is leading axis and can count on genius of Manstein or Rommel, one should also count on Hitlers not so logical moves, as was declaration of the war against USA. There was nothing personal in my messages, just an idea how to make game historicaly more accurate and enjoyable



Sugar -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/8/2018 10:57:44 AM)

Hitler`s decision to attack the SU is well represented in the game, and is also considering the Nazi ideology. If I had to be a Nazi to play this game, I wouldn`t play, but after some prerequisites everybody`s free to lead on his own.

Uber-Diplo is a disadvantage for the Allies in this particular case (and because of the many complaints I recommended to neglect it during tourney), but it's not gamebreaking, and the final goal must always be a well balanced game.



hellraiser1973 -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/8/2018 11:15:38 AM)

The eternal issue of historical accuracy modeled into a computer game ... I have yet to see one that perfectly fits the bill.
Historical accuracy is a product of multiple factors - the conditions and limitations at the time (economical, military, diplomatic, etc) as well as certain decisions made at the time (for some decisions the results appeared clear years after ppl have taken them). The main issue ppl who advocate historical accuracy have, is PERCEIVED limitations. Germany shouldn't have done whatever action because, NOW, we know it was impossible at that time. Hindsight is 20/20 they say :) But was it so clear back in the 40's ? I very much doubt it.
The SC series is a strategy series set in 39-45. It attempts to reasonably reflect a historical situation (as a starting point at least) but it also attempts to have a certain balance thrown into it because otherwise who would play Axis anyway? A game should have as close to 50-50% chances to be won by either side, else the game will lose appeal to ppl playing the historical losing side, right? This design constraint will surely lead to "ahistorical" strategies, orders of battle, etc to keep the game playable and enjoyable.

Reading these forums i came across a funny strategy of taking Algeria with 9 airfleets or so (Sugar patented it I believe) in order to trigger DE603 for the joining of Spain. Now, in real life, could Germany have possibly deployed 1500 air units in North Africa? Most probably not. Enter Sugar "the exploiter" :D who applies an unrealistic strategy to force an equally unrealistic DE603 scripted into the game. Again in real life, do you think that Franco would have cared much if a lousy ass british corps was parked in Casablanca opposing a sizable german army group poised to take all algeria/morocco? In SC3 he doesnt do DE603 untill the remote Casablanca allied unit is wiped out, right? Now try, within the game mechanics, to go by foot there, having army sized units and even a panzegruppe - it will take you forever not to mention allies can place the cheapest corps sized unit in places surrounding casablanca and , voila, have fun for the next 5 months trying to take casablanca at a supply level of 2 or so...So throwing 5 , zero tech corps without HQ support is historical but 9 axis airfleet is not :)



nnason -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/8/2018 3:20:17 PM)

Good discussion here.
IN the ELO tourney should we:
1. Consider limiting Uber diplo? If so how? Like making it 200 or 225 points per.
2. Consider limiting DE603? If so how? Like requiring 1000 or 1200 points perhaps over a longer period.


THOUGHTS?

PS: Note of caution, once USA with its 7% diplo/chip joins, the diplo advantage swings significantly towards the Allies.



Dorky8 -> RE: Having Adolf as a Fuhrer should include severe penalties for Germany (10/8/2018 3:45:04 PM)

I don't care if someone wants to play uber-diplo but its not something I'm interested in. Having the ABILITY to drive Russia military spending to 0 or keeping the US out of the war until '43 makes no sense to me ( I know there are strategies to stop it).

Maybe they could create a Major Country Diplomacy Box to check like weather at the start of the game. Not sure how complicated that would be.



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