RE: Fightng the MP's (Full Version)

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chaos45 -> RE: Fightng the MP's (11/17/2018 4:33:35 PM)

STEF- basically many patches ago they did a decently drastic soviet replacement rate cut, was towards the end of my game vs Pelton I argued against it but they did it anyway. Which is one of the reasons you now see the Soviets often having extreme manpower problems almost the entire game...historically the Soviets did have manpower issues but so did the Germans...right now the Germans do not have historical manpower issues, so this is in effect a long term reduction in Soviet CV while German CV stays inflated.

The thing is games take so long to play out it has taken a long time for this issue to finally be realized.

In the recent patch they also increased combat losses for both sides....supposedly...however you see the increase to soviets was much more massive due to low EXP/Morale...couple this with the above manpower replacement reduction and you can easily see a compounding issue for the soviet player.

You used to get divisional shells back without a delay, now you have the random delay in getting soviet units back...since its random this can drastically affect how quickly the soviet army starts to rebuild esp if the German player delays even 1-2 turns in destroying an early pocket--again a soviet CV reduction.

Removed Sapper regiments and reducing Sapper squads in soviet divisions a big CV cut as well as additional CV cut from much slower entrenchment rate.

Im not sure if it was a recent patch or just been made worse by the random delay in shell divisions---but starting/random Morale/EXP for returned divisions and only 1 exp gain per turn...this is a massively huge reduction in overall CV until the end of 1942 or beyond. The change to EXP to 1 per turn was another change I argued against long ago that they put in anyway....as by rules it should be 2-3 per turn without combat if they are in the rear on refit.

The exp thing is huge because it also affects long term corps exp when you make tank/mech/cav corps and replacement units as you lose them in 1942 even...so is a massive long term soviet CV nerf.

This exp thing also compounds since lower exp/morale units take huge losses in combat thus additionally compounding on the higher losses this last patch....and well you already dont have enough men to fill up these new units by late summer/fall of 1941.

You could say the removal of 100k+ soviet manpower from HQ disbands in a previous patch also drastically crunched early game soviet manpower and again made soviet CV much weaker in early 1941.

So its not just one issue that has caused the virtual collapse of 1941/1942 soviet CV its alot of compounding changes over many patches of basically soviet nerfs.



STEF78 -> RE: Fightng the MP's (11/17/2018 4:42:46 PM)

thanks for the reply

I didn't notice the +1 exp per turn, it's effectively hard for the soviets.
i also noticed that my units were digging far slower that what I reminded from my previous games. another change?



chaos45 -> RE: Fightng the MP's (11/17/2018 4:46:35 PM)

they removed sapper regiments and also reduced the amount of sapper/engineer capable squads in soviet divisions- thus slowing digging in speed.

As well digging in was apparently more tied to exp/morale....so even lower soviet exp/morale due to only gaining 1 per turn means soviet units cant even dig in effectively until they hit 40+ exp.



Dreamslayer -> RE: Fightng the MP's (11/17/2018 5:17:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

they removed sapper regiments

It's ok, because these "sapper regiments" in the game are actually Engineer regiments. These units did not formed in 1941(with rare exception). Also actually RKKA had shortage of various engineer/sapper specialists for new units or for replacement during first months. Most of them was used for sapper battalions of Rifle divisions. So forming others "sapper" units like sep sapper battalions of Rifle corps or "sapper" regiments in 1941 is fantasy.
There is other an issue. Like I said before about TOE reduction of Rifle divisions in June-July. Similar reduction affects sapper squads in various units(Rifle divisions,sep sapper battalions of Rifle corps, probably some others units too).



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Fightng the MP's (11/17/2018 5:23:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

they removed sapper regiments

It's ok, because these "sapper regiments" in the game are actually Engineer regiments. These units did not formed in 1941(with rare exception). Also actually RKKA had shortage of various engineer/sapper specialists for new units or for replacement during first months. Most of them was used for sapper battalions of Rifle divisions. So forming others "sapper" units like sep sapper battalions of Rifle corps or "sapper" regiments in 1941 is fantasy.
There is other an issue. Like I said before about TOE reduction of Rifle divisions in June-July. Similar reduction affects sapper squads in various units(Rifle divisions,sep sapper battalions of Rifle corps, probably some others units too).



The TOE reduction in 41 has been in place all along. The bottom line is this, "with or without Sappers the Soviets just dont have the stopping power"



chaos45 -> RE: Fightng the MP's (11/17/2018 5:53:17 PM)

Dreamslayer--historical or not the issue is the game had been more or less balanced around the soviet player having access to the CV and digging in capability these units allowed.

So when they were just removed and reduced it was a massive reduction in overall Soviet Army CV especially in 1941 timeframe.

It is doubly so a huge game balance issue when coupled up with/compounding with all the other Soviet Army Nerfs/reduction in capabilities that have been stacked on over the patches.

Historical accuracy is important to a degree but is also a game that needs to be balanced when changes are needed. If soviets at 40/45 Morale and Exp with all the sappers made for an accurate game maybe with the sappers being removed the soviet 1941 morale/exp needs to go to 45/50 instead....that's the issue they have just kept reducing soviet CV regardless of game balance issues.

Historically the Soviet army was a counterattack threat to the germans in 1941, historically the German army was understrength and especially in the motorized/panzer divisions as the campaign went on...and historically these issues greatly reduced german combat power/ in game terms CV....you see almost none of this in the game right now.

As well the German supply/fuel situation is pretty well fantasy and has been for a long time patch time frame wise. You can look at older matches and see that german supply as easily doubled or better over the years...or soviet CV has just become so pathetic the germans are now advancing almost twice as fast in the middle part of the 41 campaign.



Dreamslayer -> RE: Fightng the MP's (11/17/2018 6:06:10 PM)

I think if we really want to see this game with balance we need to be more active in the topic about it.
For now we only have stacking issues and some a "cosmetic" corrections.



chaos45 -> RE: Fightng the MP's (11/17/2018 6:42:15 PM)

I have been very outspoken about the issues in the game of late, as has HLYA.

There is a lot of history in the older pages of the AAR threads. You can look back at older games and see there is a significant difference in German advance ability and Soviet CV ability between older patches/editions of the game and the last 1-2 years of the game.

IMO many of the newer German players struggle to understand how the logistics system works, which then leads them to complain that the Soviets are to good....which has then led the patch team to just pile on nerfs to the soviet side and allow any German player that understands the game and priority objectives to just run over the now super weak soviets.

We have been seeing this time and again when anyone with some skill as a German player plays even knowledgeable soviet players.

I would say even some longer time mainly German players have a tendency to complain just to make the game easier for the German side regardless of how unplayable it makes the game for anyone attempting to play the soviets.



Dreamslayer -> RE: Fightng the MP's (11/17/2018 8:26:53 PM)

There is Balance discussion thread, we can continue there and keep that topic on top.



SparkleyTits -> RE: Fightng the MP's (11/18/2018 9:20:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45
I would say even some longer time mainly German players have a tendency to complain just to make the game easier for the German side regardless of how unplayable it makes the game for anyone attempting to play the soviets.


That's just plain silly talk now Chaos reign it in a bit at some point bud eh? [8|]

Can we please for the love of god just stop going over the same exhaustively rehashed points in every single thread in existence when Axis wins a game or pockets 6 divisions (exagerated I know but if I don't laugh at this point I might end up crying my soul out of my eyeballs soon enough [:D])
We can all happily restart the process from the beginning in the next update but at least with some new ideas as any kind of change on the subject at this point would make me weep for joy tbh
I am sure the devs and everybody else on the forum has seen what has been consistently said at this point and have decided one way or another what do about it and what they think about and it would be much simpler for everybody involved if the discussions were kept to the balance thread instead of over all four corners of the earth in any case

About the logistics that Stef mentioned in AGS I would say they are out of context and there was no logistical wizardry needed to do it at all

[image]https://i.imgur.com/eWtzsXt.jpg[/image]

Here's what happened in AGS if you look it really isn't anything special in the slightest

Here's the sequence I did
Purple: 11th army to clear the way for orange
Orange: 1st PzG corp cleared hexes in the second line
Teal: 2nd PzG corp went full throttle with a clear way

With a bit of recon this would of been seen and defended I have no doubt but luckily Stef did not recon very much throughout our game
It's a simple move all in all with 10 divisions in the way of a HQBU corp
We would see similar results in most cases when repeated under the same circumstances by most people I imagine
After this turn I had no way of pushing on more than a couple of hexes in the south

Now in lew of defending myself from being shouted down or accused of wanting Axis to be op which is apparently a thing that happens now? [&:]
I guess it's important to reiterate... yet again... for the 15th time..... that I do think there are problems with the game atm first and foremost with EXP as it is messing up construction capabilities and stopping power along all secondary fronts and I think rubber banding the supply would be a brilliant idea (if possible?) as using transports with motorised, especially in AGN (very OP) makes it overly efficient atm but I wouldn't want anyone thinking that I propogate Axis as having a hard time at the moment, which I do not, far from it.

Simply put though I am getting exhasuted of repeating these statements now and it simply shouldn't be needed as some sort of legal disclaimer anytime myself or anybody else decides to try and have an open discussion or attempts to bring a little bit of balance in ideas infront of the unrelenting, schoolyard, shouting, flying around



chaos45 -> RE: Fightng the MP's (11/18/2018 10:14:44 AM)

ST- I stand by most of my statetments...as most of the changes/nerfs to the Soviet side have been done due to lots of complaining by Axis players going back years.

Which were completely un-needed...you can go back years and see that yes even then the Axis were winning games in 1941, if the Axis player had alittle bit of skill.

I can look at the maps STEF posted and see exactly what you did, you used a variation of the super Lvov for the lvl 10 port in the south to jump off your southern offensive. Something that has needed fixed for a long time now.

In the north some key defensive terrain was left open and you exploited it early on- STEF concentrated the extremely limited soviet unit pool elsewhere early on.

In the Center STEF stayed probably 1 turn to long from the looks of it.

However, I would say some of these issues are current game design/balance issues and not so much poor play on STEFs part....basically all the Soviet player can do is run and attempt to sacrifice units in delaying actions that don't really slow the Germans that much in the early game. These delaying/sacrifice actions then compound the lack of units and lack of manpower issue the Soviets have for basically the first 6+ months of gameplay...if not long into 1942.

One additional thing you have to realize is the patches have removed a lot of soviet units from the map in the early turns of the game. The security units used to stick around a lot longer and at least provide some extra MP expenditure from the Axis to clear them out...as well Soviet units used to respawn much more quickly...now if you get bad rolls its can take a very long time for soviet units to respawn that are then completely useless anyway due to the EXP/MOR issue of them starting random and many ending up with only 10-20 starting in those stats. As well patches have made shatter results much more common than they used to be...thus even more soviet units are removed more quickly than they used to be....all these things compound into the current issues the soviet side is having.

Most patch testing is done with comp vs comp tests...I have ran them on my computer as well--the huge failure of these tests is the Axis computer will make virtually no encirclements at all...all its does is frontal assault the Soviet AI after the opening turn of 1941...thus these tests are basically a complete waste of time to try and gauge balance.




SparkleyTits -> RE: Fightng the MP's (11/18/2018 12:16:51 PM)

Straight over your head lol!

Forget it man it's all good [:D]



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