RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy

RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (Full Version)

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mind_messing -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/1/2021 2:07:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Professor Chaos Was this ever resolved? Not convinced there was anything to be resolved in the first place. Much of the previous discussion stems from the fact that torpedo bomber pilots are very good at generating bomb hits on ships, while neglecting the fact that torpedo bomber pilots tend to have the highest experience and skills as a requirement of the role. quote: I'm playing Andy Mac's updated Scenario 2 vs Japanese AI, and some Devastators from Lexington ran out of torpedo sorties. They then attacked some Japanese transports with GP bombs, and performed with very high accuracy from 15k feet. (This is May 1942). Another strange thing I noticed is that when mixed Dauntless/Devastator groups attacked Japanese surface or transport TFs, the Dauntlesses tended to attack the high-value targets (BB or AP), but Devastators with torpedoes only attacked the small escort ships (DD or TB). Is there something about the targeting algorithm that would make the Devastators only attack the small fry? Quite a lot. Mainly how good your detection level was on the enemy task force, but a whole bunch of other factors as well. Generally speaking, the higher value stuff tends to get the most ordinance thrown at it, but from my experience, there's compensation to make sure that the big ships don't act as total bomb sponges. That in itself is broadly historical, there was quite a lot of effort spent on distributing damage as equally as possible, as there was the recognition that in most scenarios it was better to spread out your ordinance when attacking enemy ships rather than complete overkill on a handful of ships. There is more info on this on the forums, but I don't have the reference immediately to hand.

BBfanboy -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/1/2021 2:37:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mind_messing Quite a lot. Mainly how good your detection level was on the enemy task force, but a whole bunch of other factors as well. Generally speaking, the higher value stuff tends to get the most ordinance thrown at it, but from my experience, there's compensation to make sure that the big ships don't act as total bomb sponges. That in itself is broadly historical, there was quite a lot of effort spent on distributing damage as equally as possible, as there was the recognition that in most scenarios it was better to spread out your ordinance when attacking enemy ships rather than complete overkill on a handful of ships. There is more info on this on the forums, but I don't have the reference immediately to hand. IME, flak thrown up by the bigger ships has an effect of deterring low-flying TBs. Unless the TB leader is a real fire-eater on the aggression scale, he will tend to go after ships with weaker flak. Low value xAKs are often chosen when there are more valuable but better armed xAPs or AMCs present. In SC or Air Combat TFs, the TBs seem to target DDs and old CLs rather than the well-armed Modern CLs, CAs, BBs and CVs.

Professor Chaos -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/1/2021 6:02:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy IME, flak thrown up by the bigger ships has an effect of deterring low-flying TBs. Unless the TB leader is a real fire-eater on the aggression scale, he will tend to go after ships with weaker flak. Low value xAKs are often chosen when there are more valuable but better armed xAPs or AMCs present. In SC or Air Combat TFs, the TBs seem to target DDs and old CLs rather than the well-armed Modern CLs, CAs, BBs and CVs. I was wondering if it had something to do with avoiding high flak targets. It was surprising how many of the Dauntlesses were damaged by AA from the Japanese BBs, especially at this early point in the war.

mind_messing -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/1/2021 6:19:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: mind_messing Quite a lot. Mainly how good your detection level was on the enemy task force, but a whole bunch of other factors as well. Generally speaking, the higher value stuff tends to get the most ordinance thrown at it, but from my experience, there's compensation to make sure that the big ships don't act as total bomb sponges. That in itself is broadly historical, there was quite a lot of effort spent on distributing damage as equally as possible, as there was the recognition that in most scenarios it was better to spread out your ordinance when attacking enemy ships rather than complete overkill on a handful of ships. There is more info on this on the forums, but I don't have the reference immediately to hand. IME, flak thrown up by the bigger ships has an effect of deterring low-flying TBs. Unless the TB leader is a real fire-eater on the aggression scale, he will tend to go after ships with weaker flak. Low value xAKs are often chosen when there are more valuable but better armed xAPs or AMCs present. In SC or Air Combat TFs, the TBs seem to target DDs and old CLs rather than the well-armed Modern CLs, CAs, BBs and CVs. I'm absolutely certain that Alfred has commented on the priority of what gets attacked by aircraft in a naval attack setting. From memory, the type of ships (BB and CV at the top) mattered, as did tonnage.

Alfred -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/1/2021 7:44:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mind_messing quote: ORIGINAL: Professor Chaos Was this ever resolved? Not convinced there was anything to be resolved in the first place... Exactly. I will repeat what I have said before. The devs read what was posted on the forum. Whenever a prima facie case was established that an issue might exist (not limited to only issues raised in the Tech sub-forum), they investigated it. One of two outcomes would usually then result from their private endeavours; either a change was instituted and documented in a patch note, or after taking into account what actually transpired,there was no real issue to address. It always pays dividends to closely read the patch notes. Alfred

Alfred -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/1/2021 7:55:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Professor Chaos quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy IME, flak thrown up by the bigger ships has an effect of deterring low-flying TBs. Unless the TB leader is a real fire-eater on the aggression scale, he will tend to go after ships with weaker flak. Low value xAKs are often chosen when there are more valuable but better armed xAPs or AMCs present. In SC or Air Combat TFs, the TBs seem to target DDs and old CLs rather than the well-armed Modern CLs, CAs, BBs and CVs. I was wondering if it had something to do with avoiding high flak targets. It was surprising how many of the Dauntlesses were damaged by AA from the Japanese BBs, especially at this early point in the war. Poor Japanese CAP capability means a greater reliance, in relative terms, on their flak engaging the attention of Allied bombers. Flak strength is not fed into the detection routines. Of course, flak strength has an impact on whether an enemy bomber is able to deliver its ordnance, and how well is the aim. Alfred

Ian R -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/1/2021 8:36:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Professor Chaos quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy IME, flak thrown up by the bigger ships has an effect of deterring low-flying TBs. Unless the TB leader is a real fire-eater on the aggression scale, he will tend to go after ships with weaker flak. Low value xAKs are often chosen when there are more valuable but better armed xAPs or AMCs present. In SC or Air Combat TFs, the TBs seem to target DDs and old CLs rather than the well-armed Modern CLs, CAs, BBs and CVs. I was wondering if it had something to do with avoiding high flak targets. It was surprising how many of the Dauntlesses were damaged by AA from the Japanese BBs, especially at this early point in the war. It is always interesting to compare a FOW combat report that says you had more planes lost or damaged, than went on the strike, with what the airgroup looks like the next turn - a lot of damage seems to be fixed over-night, or was over-claimed. It's similar to where 6 strike aircraft hauling 1 bomb each report 8 ship hits.

Professor Chaos -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/2/2021 2:12:16 AM)
Well far be it for a lowly newb like me to dispute Alfred, but one is tempted to call shenanigans. I re-ran some turns, and here are combat reports from three days of air attacks by Devastators equipped with bombs against various Japanese TFs in May 1942. Every such attack is recorded here: quote: Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Deboyne Islands at 103,135 Weather in hex: Moderate rain Raid spotted at 9 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 4 minutes Allied aircraft TBD-1 Devastator x 15 No Allied losses Japanese Ships xAK Genoa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire Aircraft Attacking: 15 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 15000 feet Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb Massive explosion on xAK Genoa Maru Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Genoa Maru quote: Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Port Moresby at 97,132 Weather in hex: Light cloud Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 7 minutes Allied aircraft F4F-3 Wildcat x 19 TBD-1 Devastator x 15 No Allied losses Japanese Ships TB Hayabusa, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk Aircraft Attacking: 15 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 10000 feet Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb Heavy smoke from fires obscuring TB Hayabusa quote: Morning Air attack on TF, near Goodenough Island at 101,131 Weather in hex: Heavy cloud Raid spotted at 4 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 1 minutes Allied aircraft F4F-4 Wildcat x 19 TBD-1 Devastator x 15 No Allied losses Japanese Ships xAP Haruna Maru xAP Hie Maru, Bomb hits 6, and is sunk Aircraft Attacking: 15 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 15000 feet * Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAP Hie Maru quote: Morning Air attack on TF, near Deboyne Islands at 103,134 Weather in hex: Clear sky Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 8 minutes Allied aircraft F4F-3 Wildcat x 19 TBD-1 Devastator x 15 No Allied losses Japanese Ships BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 4 BB Kongo, Bomb hits 2 Aircraft Attacking: 15 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 15000 feet * Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb quote: Morning Air attack on TF, near Deboyne Islands at 103,134 Weather in hex: Clear sky Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 7 minutes Allied aircraft F4F-4 Wildcat x 19 TBD-1 Devastator x 15 No Allied losses Japanese Ships DD Kuretake, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage Aircraft Attacking: 15 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 15000 feet Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb quote: Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Goodenough Island at 101,131 Weather in hex: Thunderstorms Raid spotted at 11 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 5 minutes Allied aircraft F4F-3 Wildcat x 19 F4F-4 Wildcat x 19 TBD-1 Devastator x 15 No Allied losses Japanese Ships xAP Haruna Maru, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage PB Chitose Maru Aircraft Attacking: 15 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 15000 feet * Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAP Haruna Maru quote: Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Deboyne Islands at 103,134 Weather in hex: Severe storms Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 8 minutes Allied aircraft F4F-4 Wildcat x 19 TBD-1 Devastator x 15 No Allied losses Japanese Ships DD Kuretake, on fire, heavy damage Aircraft Attacking: 15 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 15000 feet Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb In every attack except the last, the Devastators scored bomb hits from 10,000 or 15,000 feet. Even in clouds, rain, and thunderstorms. Even against small ships like DDs and TBs. (The average NavB skill of the squads (Lexington, Saratoga, Hornet) ranged from 40 to 63). Two of these attacks scored 20% hits from 15,000 feet.

BBfanboy -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/2/2021 2:41:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ian R quote: ORIGINAL: Professor Chaos quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy IME, flak thrown up by the bigger ships has an effect of deterring low-flying TBs. Unless the TB leader is a real fire-eater on the aggression scale, he will tend to go after ships with weaker flak. Low value xAKs are often chosen when there are more valuable but better armed xAPs or AMCs present. In SC or Air Combat TFs, the TBs seem to target DDs and old CLs rather than the well-armed Modern CLs, CAs, BBs and CVs. I was wondering if it had something to do with avoiding high flak targets. It was surprising how many of the Dauntlesses were damaged by AA from the Japanese BBs, especially at this early point in the war. It is always interesting to compare a FOW combat report that says you had more planes lost or damaged, than went on the strike, with what the airgroup looks like the next turn - a lot of damage seems to be fixed over-night, or was over-claimed. It's similar to where 6 strike aircraft hauling 1 bomb each report 8 ship hits. I always imagined that to be like the damage to aircraft in shore bombardments - the "aircraft damaged" number is actually the number of damaging hits inflicted in total, not the number of individual aircraft damaged. So in flak terms if an aircraft gets some flak damage approaching the target and more damage as it departs, that could be two on the "aircraft damaged" count.

witpqs -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/2/2021 2:57:40 AM)
I do remember this being a topic of discussion long ago but I don't remember what the conclusion was. Are you running the very latest version? It's possible they did make a change to address this.

Alfred -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/2/2021 4:50:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Professor Chaos Well far be it for a lowly newb like me to dispute Alfred, but one is tempted to call shenanigans. I re-ran some turns, and here are combat reports from three days of air attacks by Devastators equipped with bombs against various Japanese TFs in May 1942. Every such attack is recorded here: quote: Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Deboyne Islands at 103,135 Weather in hex: Moderate rain Raid spotted at 9 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 4 minutes Allied aircraft TBD-1 Devastator x 15 No Allied losses Japanese Ships xAK Genoa Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire Aircraft Attacking: 15 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 15000 feet Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb Massive explosion on xAK Genoa Maru Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Genoa Maru quote: Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Port Moresby at 97,132 Weather in hex: Light cloud Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 7 minutes Allied aircraft F4F-3 Wildcat x 19 TBD-1 Devastator x 15 No Allied losses Japanese Ships TB Hayabusa, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk Aircraft Attacking: 15 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 10000 feet Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb GP Bomb Heavy smoke from fires obscuring TB Hayabusa quote: Morning Air attack on TF, near Goodenough Island at 101,131 Weather in hex: Heavy cloud Raid spotted at 4 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 1 minutes Allied aircraft F4F-4 Wildcat x 19 TBD-1 Devastator x 15 No Allied losses Japanese Ships xAP Haruna Maru xAP Hie Maru, Bomb hits 6, and is sunk Aircraft Attacking: 15 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 15000 feet * Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAP Hie Maru quote: Morning Air attack on TF, near Deboyne Islands at 103,134 Weather in hex: Clear sky Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 8 minutes Allied aircraft F4F-3 Wildcat x 19 TBD-1 Devastator x 15 No Allied losses Japanese Ships BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 4 BB Kongo, Bomb hits 2 Aircraft Attacking: 15 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 15000 feet * Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb quote: Morning Air attack on TF, near Deboyne Islands at 103,134 Weather in hex: Clear sky Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 7 minutes Allied aircraft F4F-4 Wildcat x 19 TBD-1 Devastator x 15 No Allied losses Japanese Ships DD Kuretake, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage Aircraft Attacking: 15 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 15000 feet Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb quote: Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Goodenough Island at 101,131 Weather in hex: Thunderstorms Raid spotted at 11 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 5 minutes Allied aircraft F4F-3 Wildcat x 19 F4F-4 Wildcat x 19 TBD-1 Devastator x 15 No Allied losses Japanese Ships xAP Haruna Maru, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage PB Chitose Maru Aircraft Attacking: 15 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 15000 feet * Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAP Haruna Maru quote: Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Deboyne Islands at 103,134 Weather in hex: Severe storms Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 8 minutes Allied aircraft F4F-4 Wildcat x 19 TBD-1 Devastator x 15 No Allied losses Japanese Ships DD Kuretake, on fire, heavy damage Aircraft Attacking: 15 x TBD-1 Devastator bombing from 15000 feet Naval Attack: 2 x 500 lb SAP Bomb In every attack except the last, the Devastators scored bomb hits from 10,000 or 15,000 feet. Even in clouds, rain, and thunderstorms. Even against small ships like DDs and TBs. (The average NavB skill of the squads (Lexington, Saratoga, Hornet) ranged from 40 to 63). Two of these attacks scored 20% hits from 15,000 feet. Facts constitute such a disarming weapon against opinionated polemicists. Seven combat report extracts, not one showing there is a problem. Let's go through each combat and allow the facts to speak for themselves. #1 at hex 103,135 * No CAP to disrupt the bombers aiming * Weather not great but not the worst possible, would likely have some disruption impact on the bombers aiming * Target is a solitary xAK with very weak AA, most unlikely to have disrupted the bombers aiming * Target bomb evasion rating is poor * Altitude is 15k, not the best for aiming but not one which makes it impossible to hit a ship Result = 1 hit out of 30 bombs dropped #2 at hex 97,132 * No CAP to disrupt the bombers aiming * Weather is excellent, in fact the best possible in the game, perfect for aiming bombs * Target is a solitary TB with weak AA, most unlikely to have disrupted the bombers aiming * Target bomb evasion rating is good * Altitude is 10k, not too far off the ideal range for level bomb aiming Result = 1 hit out of 30 bombs dropped #3 at hex 101,131 * No CAP to disrupt the bombers aiming * Weather is the next best to perfect in AE. Still very good for bomb aiming purposes * Target is two xAP weak AA, most unlikely to have disrupted the bombers aiming * Target bomb evasion rating is poor * Altitude is 15k, not the best for aiming but not one which makes it impossible to hit a ship Result = 6 hit out of 30 bombs dropped #4 at hex 103,134 * No CAP to disrupt the bombers aiming * Weather is excellent, in fact the best possible in the game, perfect for aiming bombs * Target is two bqttleships with a thin AA coverge, depending on vector of enemy attack might have put up inadequate flack to significantly disrupt the bombers aiming * Target bomb evasion rating is poor * Altitude is 15k, not the best for aiming but not one which makes it impossible to hit a ship Result = 6 hits out of 30 bombs dropped #5 at hex 103,134 * No CAP to disrupt the bombers aiming * Weather is excellent, in fact the best possible in the game, perfect for aiming bombs * Target is a solitary DD with thin AA coverage, depending on vector of enemy attack might have put up inadequate flack to significantly disrupt the bombers aiming * Target bomb evasion rating is good * Altitude is 15k, not the best for aiming but not one which makes it impossible to hit a ship Result = 1 hit out of 30 bombs dropped #6 at hex 101,131 * No CAP to disrupt the bombers aiming * Weather is poor, the worst possible in AE, probably did put off the bombers aiming * Target is one xAP and one PB with very weak AA, most unlikely to have disrupted the bombers aiming * Target bomb evasion rating is poor, except for the PB if it is a Tosa class PB in which case the evasion rating is good * Altitude is 15k, not the best for aiming but not one which makes it impossible to hit a ship Result = 2 hits out of 30 bombs dropped #7 at hex 103,134 * No CAP to disrupt the bombers aiming * Weather is poor, the worst possible in AE, probably did put off the bombers aiming * Target is a solitary DD which has already been hit in combat #5 * Target bomb evasion rating is good when undamaged but how much it has been degraded by the earlier bomb hit is unknown * Altitude is 15k, not the best for aiming but not one which makes it impossible to hit a ship Result = no hits out of 30 bombs dropped Conclusions from looking at all the facts are: 1. No CAP ever present. This is a very significant fact and removes one of the most important means to disrupt enemy bombing. 2. Predominantly only ineffective Flak in play. Again one of the main means to disrupt enemy bombing is missing. 3. Weather was mainly excellent to very good, which combined with the lack of CAP, poor Flak, and generally poor ship bomb evasion ratings, should have resulted in at least double digit bomb hits. That the number of actual hits achieved was so low under such good weather conditions and favourable battlefield conditions (practically shooting at fish in a barrel), is quite likely the result from pilot stats, plus bombing from extended range plus the always present Grigsby die rolls. There is zero evidence presented that a mean bomb hit quantum of less than 2.5 per combat demonstrates a problem exists or that the call of shenanigans is warranted. What we do have here is another exemplar of someone, for the benefit of advancing their narrative, selectively highlighting only part of the matrix which is involved in any AE combat. Alfred

Alfred -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/2/2021 5:00:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs I do remember this being a topic of discussion long ago but I don't remember what the conclusion was. Are you running the very latest version? It's possible they did make a change to address this. What was changed is a condition not found in the combat reports presented in post #98. Alfred

Professor Chaos -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/2/2021 6:15:16 AM)
I will pass over the irony of being labeled an 'opinionated polemicist' in post #101. My apologies for the offense of being tempted to call shenanigans. In any case, if the answer is that yes, one should generally expect "at least double digit bomb hits" from decent pilots level bombing under good conditions at altitudes of 10 - 15k, then that is all I needed to know.

Yaab -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/2/2021 6:20:05 AM)
I can dismiss all the Clear/Cloud weather attacks but the attack on xAP Haruna Maru from 15,000 feet in thunderstorms must surely be either a miracle or bug. BTW, those Wildcat pilots must be super experienced. Every raid came escorted, even though the cruise speed delta between those Wildcats and Devastators is HUGE.

Alfred -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/2/2021 11:21:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yaab I can dismiss all the Clear/Cloud weather attacks but the attack on xAP Haruna Maru from 15,000 feet in thunderstorms must surely be either a miracle or bug. BTW, those Wildcat pilots must be super experienced. Every raid came escorted, even though the cruise speed delta between those Wildcats and Devastators is HUGE. Why? The only element helping the xAP is the weather. All the other key known elements are either neutral or favouring the bombers. When it comes to helping "dodge" air dropped bombs, the weather status is a very distant aid compared to CAP and flak. That is without taking into account the other relevant elements of the matrix which may assist or hinder the bombers. Even then only 2 hits out of 30 bombs dropped were scored. Not much of a miracle. The major defensive value of weather lies in hiding the target. If the attackers could (a) take off and (b) find the target much of the defensive value of weather has been lost. Besides there is no altitude to weather. Who is to say the bombers weren't below the cloud cover. Alfred

Alfred -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/2/2021 11:24:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Professor Chaos ...if the answer is that yes, one should generally expect "at least double digit bomb hits" from decent pilots level bombing under good conditions at altitudes of 10 - 15k, then that is all I needed to know. Still being selective, overlooking other components of the matrix which were mentioned. Alfred

witpqs -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/2/2021 3:02:34 PM)
Very good analysis, Alfred. 👍

Yaab -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/11/2021 7:59:37 AM)
I wonder where is the limit to TB accuracy? Can TB hit ships from 20k,25k,30k feet? So far I have seen hits from 17k.

Alfred -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/11/2021 1:06:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yaab I wonder where is the limit to TB accuracy? Can TB hit ships from 20k,25k,30k feet? So far I have seen hits from 17k. Where is the concern for a dive bomber, or a level bomber, or a fighter bomber, or a fighter operating at those altitudes too? Especially when no one shows an excessive number of hits results. Alfred

Dili -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/11/2021 1:32:23 PM)
Many here showed excessive number of hits by torpedo bombers in bombing missions, and at low level many more that they can do with own torpedoes. You just choose to ignore them Alfred.

Alfred -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/11/2021 3:06:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dili Many here showed excessive number of hits by torpedo bombers in bombing missions, and at low level many more that they can do with own torpedoes. You just choose to ignore them Alfred. Really, I "just choose to ignore"? This would be evidence of the calibre found in post #98 of this thread. Maybe you might care to bother reading what I said in post #102. Then you can proceed to explain what I referred to and explain, for the benefit of the inexperienced AE players who read the forum why the change was made, and what is the new paradigm. Then you will show the purported examples post the change which you allege I "just choose to ignore". Whilst you are at it, again for the benefit of the inexperienced readers, you might explain why in AE it might be more difficult to score a torpedo hit than a bomb hit. Nor forget to explain how the other elements in the matrix operate, carefully separating their impact so that the bomb hits achieved can only be due to the alleged TB accuracy. Also useful to put up a screenshot which displays the accuracy rating of a torpedo bomber, and how it is so much better than other aircraft types. After all, the fundamental claim made here is that a TB is more "accurate" than a MB, or FB, or HB. Being so much more thorough than me who in your eyes simply chooses to ignore the facts, you will also inform the forum what is the correct number of bomb hits which a TB should not exceed, under any circumstances. After all the bomb hits listed in post #98, which I put into context in post #101 are clearly excessive in your view. Don't overlook what are the consequences of abstraction. Be brave and thorough, you know there will be others fully rooting for you to conclusively demonstrate I have no idea about this games mechanics. Nor did the devs also understand how AE plays. Alfred

castor troy -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/11/2021 6:00:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alfred quote: ORIGINAL: Dili Many here showed excessive number of hits by torpedo bombers in bombing missions, and at low level many more that they can do with own torpedoes. You just choose to ignore them Alfred. Really, I "just choose to ignore"? This would be evidence of the calibre found in post #98 of this thread. Maybe you might care to bother reading what I said in post #102. Then you can proceed to explain what I referred to and explain, for the benefit of the inexperienced AE players who read the forum why the change was made, and what is the new paradigm. Then you will show the purported examples post the change which you allege I "just choose to ignore". Whilst you are at it, again for the benefit of the inexperienced readers, you might explain why in AE it might be more difficult to score a torpedo hit than a bomb hit. Nor forget to explain how the other elements in the matrix operate, carefully separating their impact so that the bomb hits achieved can only be due to the alleged TB accuracy. Also useful to put up a screenshot which displays the accuracy rating of a torpedo bomber, and how it is so much better than other aircraft types. After all, the fundamental claim made here is that a TB is more "accurate" than a MB, or FB, or HB. Being so much more thorough than me who in your eyes simply chooses to ignore the facts, you will also inform the forum what is the correct number of bomb hits which a TB should not exceed, under any circumstances. After all the bomb hits listed in post #98, which I put into context in post #101 are clearly excessive in your view. Don't overlook what are the consequences of abstraction. Be brave and thorough, you know there will be others fully rooting for you to conclusively demonstrate I have no idea about this games mechanics. Nor did the devs also understand how AE plays. Alfred If you haven't yet noticed that torpedo bombers dropping two bombs each have an insanely higher accuracy than any medium bomber dropping 4 or 6 bombs than this might have a) something to do with the fact that you haven't shown any evidence you have played a single turn of this game or b) google hasn't brought up enough combat reports showing you the difference between attacks of medium bombers dropping twice or three times the bombs than torpedo bombers which can hit ships at will, all bombers flown by the same nav bomb skilled pilots or c) you just don't get it which is the most likely reason (Dili was friendly enough to aks if you would ignore it) a classic, once again, so much nonsene and blah blah blah in a single post [sm=happy0065.gif] [image]local://upfiles/13774/EEEBB984CB9C43B1A73B7CFAFA073EE9.jpg[/image]

mind_messing -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/11/2021 9:40:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: castor troy [...] a classic, once again, so much nonsene and blah blah blah in a single post [sm=happy0065.gif] It is altogether fitting and proper that you would support Dili's position in this matter. You are one of the few posters to beat the (admittedly high) bar that Dili has set when it comes to choosing to ignore the facts that are inconvenient to the position held.

Shellshock -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/12/2021 1:05:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: castor troy [image]local://upfiles/13774/EEEBB984CB9C43B1A73B7CFAFA073EE9.jpg[/image] We are poor little lambs, Who have lost our way. Blaah, Blaah, Blaaaaah. I guess it's a good thing Allied intelligence never code-named a Japanese plane the "Greta".

Ian R -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/12/2021 6:57:06 AM)
Why are people picking on Greta? She seems like a nice young lady, and quite intelligent.

Maallon -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/12/2021 7:28:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ian R Why are people picking on Greta? She seems like a nice young lady, and quite intelligent. +1 I was asking myself the same question just now. [:D]

RangerJoe -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/12/2021 9:28:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Maallon quote: ORIGINAL: Ian R Why are people picking on Greta? She seems like a nice young lady, and quite intelligent. +1 I was asking myself the same question just now. [:D] She has indicated her willingness to shoot people who disagree with her views. Among other things.

Maallon -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/12/2021 9:55:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe quote: ORIGINAL: Maallon quote: ORIGINAL: Ian R Why are people picking on Greta? She seems like a nice young lady, and quite intelligent. +1 I was asking myself the same question just now. [:D] She has indicated her willingness to shoot people who disagree with her views. Among other things. Not saying that you are wrong, because I am not following her every move and don't agree with absolutely everything she says, also she is young and fiery, a combination which can lead to unfortunate wording. But for me to believe your exact statement you would need to send me the source. [:)]

RangerJoe -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/12/2021 10:30:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Maallon quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe quote: ORIGINAL: Maallon quote: ORIGINAL: Ian R Why are people picking on Greta? She seems like a nice young lady, and quite intelligent. +1 I was asking myself the same question just now. [:D] She has indicated her willingness to shoot people who disagree with her views. Among other things. Not saying that you are wrong, because I am not following her every move and don't agree with absolutely everything she says, also she is young and fiery, a combination which can lead to unfortunate wording. But for me to believe your exact statement you would need to send me the source. [:)] There is even a video with her speaking in English. Greta Thunberg turns heads when she threatens to put world leaders �against the wall� quote: Wearing what appeared to be a mass-produced plastic raincoat, on Friday fanatical 16-year-old climate change activist Greta Thunberg promised her followers that they would one day force the world�s leaders to do their bidding, one way or another. �Unfortunately, we probably already know the outcome,� she said at a climate change protest in Italy, referring to she and her acolytes� efforts to persuade world leaders to jettison the fruits of Western civilization so that the Earth may be saved from doom. �World leaders are still trying to run away from their responsibilities but we have to make sure they cannot do that. We will make sure that we put them against the wall and they will have to do their job to protect our futures.� https://www.bizpacreview.com/2019/12/14/greta-thunberg-turns-heads-when-she-threatens-to-put-world-leaders-against-the-wall-864506/ quote: up against the wall in an inextricable situation; in great trouble or difficulty. The image here is of someone facing execution by a firing squad. See also: up, wall https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/up+against+the+wall

Maallon -> RE: Torpedo bombers and bombing accuracy (11/12/2021 10:40:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe quote: ORIGINAL: Maallon quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe quote: ORIGINAL: Maallon quote: ORIGINAL: Ian R Why are people picking on Greta? She seems like a nice young lady, and quite intelligent. +1 I was asking myself the same question just now. [:D] She has indicated her willingness to shoot people who disagree with her views. Among other things. Not saying that you are wrong, because I am not following her every move and don't agree with absolutely everything she says, also she is young and fiery, a combination which can lead to unfortunate wording. But for me to believe your exact statement you would need to send me the source. [:)] There is even a video with her speaking in English. Greta Thunberg turns heads when she threatens to put world leaders �against the wall� quote: Wearing what appeared to be a mass-produced plastic raincoat, on Friday fanatical 16-year-old climate change activist Greta Thunberg promised her followers that they would one day force the world�s leaders to do their bidding, one way or another. �Unfortunately, we probably already know the outcome,� she said at a climate change protest in Italy, referring to she and her acolytes� efforts to persuade world leaders to jettison the fruits of Western civilization so that the Earth may be saved from doom. �World leaders are still trying to run away from their responsibilities but we have to make sure they cannot do that. We will make sure that we put them against the wall and they will have to do their job to protect our futures.� https://www.bizpacreview.com/2019/12/14/greta-thunberg-turns-heads-when-she-threatens-to-put-world-leaders-against-the-wall-864506/ quote: up against the wall in an inextricable situation; in great trouble or difficulty. The image here is of someone facing execution by a firing squad. See also: up, wall https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/up+against+the+wall This is exactly what I meant with unfortunate wording and also speaking in a second language. Here is her apology and reasoning for that phrase: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50799233

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