Resupply? (Full Version)

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kevin575 -> Resupply? (11/19/2018 2:19:40 AM)

Anyone know how to resupply?
Thanks

Kevin



budd -> RE: Resupply? (11/19/2018 3:01:44 AM)

Don't think resupply is in the game, don't remember anything on resupply in the manual.



Eambar -> RE: Resupply? (11/19/2018 3:16:56 AM)

Agree, I'm sure I read somewhere that resupply is not modelled in-game.

Cheers



kevinkins -> RE: Resupply? (11/19/2018 12:12:15 PM)

I think a heard that there is no resupply in one of the videos. But that begs the question, do units run out of ammo? Or is it endless?



zacklaws -> RE: Resupply? (11/19/2018 12:43:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

I think a heard that there is no resupply in one of the videos. But that begs the question, do units run out of ammo? Or is it endless?


They run out of ammo.



budd -> RE: Resupply? (11/19/2018 1:43:24 PM)

Yea they run out, ran out of LAWS rockets at a bad time once when the AI attacked with armor vehicles and the squad had already gotten 4 kills with the 4 they carried, had to pull back.



PoorOldSpike -> RE: Resupply? (11/19/2018 2:10:15 PM)

I suppose the solution is to have a few units in reserve to relieve units that have run out of ammo.
PS- I presume enemy units run out of ammo too so at least it's a level playing field..:)

HEY I just remembered we can order our units to only fire when the enemy gets within a certain range, therefore not wasting ammo by firing at too long a range-
I've red-circled the options, click each one in turn then click map to set two range circles, one for engaging enemy soft units and one for engaging his hard units-

[image]http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub4/sub4001/AB-range-opts_zps7qsbijvm.jpg[/image]



zacklaws -> RE: Resupply? (11/19/2018 2:41:18 PM)

You will also find some units are immobile, so once out of ammunition, they just sit there waiting to be killed off by an advancing enemy. Despite taking no further action once out of ammunition, if these units could move, they could be withdrawn and thus saved from being killed off easily and prevent your side loosing unnecessary points. But, immobile units can be changed to mobile in the database to prevent this.



kevinkins -> RE: Resupply? (11/19/2018 3:10:20 PM)

Wow, that's an important point. Can that be set for the AI side. I hope so. Without resupply, another way to help the tacAI decided when and what to fire on would be incorporate cover arcs and a filter what to engage e.g. armor only, infantry only, any.

Kevin



Hub6Actual -> RE: Resupply? (11/19/2018 7:31:24 PM)

.



blackcloud6 -> RE: Resupply? (11/19/2018 8:28:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PoorOldSpike

I suppose the solution is to have a few units in reserve to relieve units that have run out of ammo.


[image]http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/sub4/sub4001/AB-range-opts_zps7qsbijvm.jpg[/image]



Yes, this is game where keeping a reserve is important. Many wargames cause you to bring everyone forward to maximize firepower becasue the game is going to end at a certain time so it is better to use all units for fighting and not keep a reserve. i suspect in AB, a reserve may be very important.



Sorrow_Knight -> RE: Resupply? (11/19/2018 8:47:44 PM)

AB is tactical level game. In short tactical combat of batallion\brigade level of forces you will never be able to send additional ammo to your units.



exsonic01 -> RE: Resupply? (11/19/2018 9:24:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sorrow_Knight
AB is tactical level game. In short tactical combat of batallion\brigade level of forces you will never be able to send additional ammo to your units.

I'm also curious about this part, some FMs mentioned about emergency resupply. Here, I burrow some commends regarding field resupply from beta forum:

quote:


Army Research Report 1345, "Field-Expedient Maintenance Experiences of M60-Series Tank Crewmen" of 1983 to be enlightening.
"In making field-expedient repairs... NCOs often use tools or any other available materials in unique and occasionally ingenious ways. Most of the techniques described took 30 minutes or less to complete and generally were effective in restoring malfunctioning tanks to operation."


and this

quote:


http://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us-archive/FM-17-15%2896%29.pdf
FM 17-15 (1996) discuss so many things for tank platoon, and one of them is emergency resupply technique, introduced from page 248. Depending on the situation, platoon leader for armors can receive tailgate resupply, or service station resupply, or combination of them, during engagement. I think the method I suggested is "service station" option on the battlefield, and this is the one Steel Beast Pro scenarios introduced.

FM mentions that "Generally, the platoon should attempt to avoid resupply during the execution of offensive operations; resupply should be done during mission transition. Resupply is unavoidable during defensive missions of long duration." However, FM also mentions "The situation will also dictate when to resupply" and "Emergency resupply, normally involving Classes III and V, is executed when the platoon has such an urgent need for resupply that it cannot wait for the routine LOGPAC. "
Based on those comments, I think such resupply operation is OK to be introduced not only for defense mission, but also for assault and meeting engagement in this game as well. FM mentioned that decision of emergency resupply is based on situation and commander's decision. FM mentioned "commander should try to avoid resupply during offensive" but they never ruled out such option, so it is still possible for offense and meeting engagement, according to FM.

For the 'limited repair', since this game abstracted battle damage to light and heavy damage only, instead of modeled subsystems, this battlefield repair should be abstracted too. How about only enables light damage to normal, and heavy damage to light damage?


It seems that US Army never ruled out of emergency resupply on field units during operation. FM mentioned that commanders should "try to avoid" to ask resupply during offensive ops, but I don't know about how commanders on the field interpreted that phrase. I think emergency resupply would still be possible, if regimental~divisional commander and staffs agree the situation is dire and urgent resupply is essential around AO, regardless of offensive or meeting engagement or defensive.

Several scenarios from SB Pro also use 'service station' type resupply zone.

I dunno for other NATO nations or PACT forces. If anyone have FMs regarding emergency resupply of field resupply of Cold War FRG/UK/Pol/Rus FM for tank platoon or tank company, that would be great.



blackcloud6 -> RE: Resupply? (11/19/2018 10:04:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sorrow_Knight

AB is tactical level game. In short tactical combat of batallion\brigade level of forces you will never be able to send additional ammo to your units.



Oh I think some units could pull back to supply trucks and get some ammo to keep fighting. It sure would make for an interesting tactical problem, and scenario, to have to do so while covering the resupply mission.



Sorrow_Knight -> RE: Resupply? (11/19/2018 10:15:35 PM)

I don`t know about US Army, but in Soviet resuply only allowed after combat as part of preparation for defence.



exsonic01 -> RE: Resupply? (11/20/2018 12:08:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sorrow_Knight
I don`t know about US Army, but in Soviet resupply only allowed after combat as part of preparation for defence.

Well, US reports on Soviet army tells a bit differently. FM 100-2-2 (1984) Soviet Army Specialized Warfare and Rear Area Support discuss about tactical logistics of Soviet Arm from different level of elements:
"At the tactical level, Soviet logistic support is fully mobile. Streamlined logistic elements support the respective tactical units with ammunition, POL, and rations to insure continuous combat operations. " Page 13-4
Also, on page 13-15:
"Maintenance facilities in the field are provided for the following items of equipment:
Tracked vehicles.
Wheeled vehicles.
Artillery and ordnance.
Engineer equipment.
Signal equipment.
Chemical equipment.
Service for these items is provided by fixed and mobile repair facilities that extend repair capabilities forward into the battle area. "
In the same page:
"Company Level. Only driver and crew preventive maintenance and routine inspections are conducted at company level.
Battalion Level. The repair workshop contains a shop truck and four mechanics who make routine repairs on tracked and wheeled vehicles. In combat, this repair workshop can be reinforced with a vehicle recovery section. "
Page 13-15 contains table for the range of maintenance and recovery, which includes in-combat service.
Page 13-8 shows the typical placement of such "resupply station" for battalion size attack/defense situation
Page 13-5 shows the table for "Location of Tactical Logistics Element" for typical Soviet army, including battalion and company.

From other document, Soviet Tank Company Tactics (1976) (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/b297807.pdf)
On page 9:
"Resupply in combat is normally at night; each tank company is resupplied in turn. If a tank runs out of ammunition during combat it moves to a position outside enemy observation and is resupplied. In defensive positions ammunition may be placed near the tank position to provide a ready reserve."
"An emergency reserve consists of between 20 percent and 30 percent of the normal load of POL, rations and ammunition, and all spare parts carried in company tanks. This reserve may not be used without orders from the company commander. "
"In combat, a recovery and repair organization is established at battalion level. A technical observation point (TOP) is formed by battalion and company technical officers and is normally mounted in an APC. The TOP moves in rear of battalion headquarters with the task of maintaining visual surveillance over the battlefield to locate damaged tanks. "
"Tanks damaged in combat are repaired on the spot or under the nearest cover by the battalion repair and evacuation group (REG). The REG is formed by the battalion maintenance section with augmentation from regiment as required. It follows the tank battalion and is tasked by the TOP."

All in all, I think Soviet army during cold war were capable of providing battlefield resupply / maintenance / limited repair service during middle of the battle. According to those descriptions, it looks very similar to "Service Center" type emergency field resupply of US Armor platoon / company. At least US intelligence evaluated the ability Soviet army field resupply in combat in good way.

But I don't have 1st hand FMs written in Russians for Red army, and I can't even read Russian. So I was looking for such materials. I'm also Curious how UK and FRG and other NATO nations did. I think it would be similar.



thewood1 -> RE: Resupply? (11/20/2018 12:47:32 AM)

This has been discussed on the Combat Mission and Steel Beasts forums several times. Real life tankers in the US and German armies have stated that reload for normal ammunition is done back from the frontlines if there is any chance of combat. Its done well behind the lines and can take 30 minutes to an hour at least for a tank to fully stock up. As was stated there, if the supply point is 15 minutes to 30 minutes, you are talking close to an hour at least. In a two hour scenario, not having ammo resupply would not seem to be a priority feature.

Now infantry arms and missiles might be a different story.



exsonic01 -> RE: Resupply? (11/20/2018 1:48:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

This has been discussed on the Combat Mission and Steel Beasts forums several times. Real life tankers in the US and German armies have stated that reload for normal ammunition is done back from the frontlines if there is any chance of combat. Its done well behind the lines and can take 30 minutes to an hour at least for a tank to fully stock up. As was stated there, if the supply point is 15 minutes to 30 minutes, you are talking close to an hour at least. In a two hour scenario, not having ammo resupply would not seem to be a priority feature.

Now infantry arms and missiles might be a different story.

Thanks, there was a discussion regarding logistics in beta forum as well. So I think it was possible for NATO and PACT to perform resupply during battle during cold war, right?

I have a question, if full resupply takes 30min to 1hr, does a tank can choose 50% or 75% resupply, so that finish resupply within 15~30min?

There was a discussion regarding forced attack related with resupply from beta forum. If this game features forced attack then ammo will drained up very fast, so such field resupply would be essential. But I don't know what devs are thinking about resupply and forced attack. I don't think such features will be added soon, even though devs are considering positively.

It might be possible to give some expensive point price to call field resupply units, or introduce minimum point limitation to buy logistics unit from purchase screen. So that both player and AI would not use resupply option for "smaller" games, and naturally logistics would be only possible from "big" games.

Also, it would be possible to distinguish resupply and limited repair, that limited repair takes more time to finish.




Homewrecker -> RE: Resupply? (11/20/2018 2:19:16 AM)

Shouldn't infantry be able resupply from APC/IFV's. At least another load of AT weapons and small arms ammo?



Rosseau -> RE: Resupply? (11/20/2018 2:40:47 AM)

Just change your favorite weapons loadout in a custom Database. This is the strength of the game for me. Every faction, formation, weapon system, and ammo is easily moddable in great detail. But I know most people don't like to mess with this, or obviously not "historical." But this is a sandbox game after all.

Of course it would be easier if he adds a supply truck in a patch, should the community agree, which they won't [;)]



Sorrow_Knight -> RE: Resupply? (11/20/2018 7:32:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01


All in all, I think Soviet army during cold war were capable of providing battlefield resupply / maintenance / limited repair service during middle of the battle. According to those descriptions, it looks very similar to "Service Center" type emergency field resupply of US Armor platoon / company. At least US intelligence evaluated the ability Soviet army field resupply in combat in good way.

But I don't have 1st hand FMs written in Russians for Red army, and I can't even read Russian. So I was looking for such materials. I'm also Curious how UK and FRG and other NATO nations did. I think it would be similar.


I`ve just quoted Soviet Army regulations where said next:
"Израсходованные запасы ракет, бое­припасов, горючего, продовольствия и других материальных средств должны пополняться до установленных норм.
Подвоз ракет, боеприпасов, горючего, про­довольствия и других материальных средств в подразделения осуществляется по устным заявкам командиров рот и отдельных взво­дов и приказу (приказанию) командира (на­чальника штаба) батальона.
Пополнение танков, боевых машин пехоты (бронетранспортеров) боеприпасами и за­правка их горючим в ходе боя производятся непосредственно в боевых порядках, а при совершении марша—в районах привалов, дневного (ночного) отдыха и по прибытии в назначенный район. При невозможности под­воза боеприпасов и горючего к танкам, бое­вым машинам пехоты (бронетранспортерам) непосредственно в боевые порядки транс­портные средства с боеприпасами и горючим подходят как можно ближе к ним. Танки, боевые машины пехоты (бронетранспортеры) поочередно скрытно подходят к местам рас­положения транспортных средств для попол­нения боеприпасами и заправки горючим."
(Google translate... sorry but it will take too long for me to translate this properly):
The spent reserves of missiles, ammunition, fuel, food and other materiel must be replenished to the established norms.
The delivery of missiles, ammunition, fuel, food and other materiel to the subunits is carried out at the oral requests of company commanders and individual platoons and the order (order) of the battalion commander (chief of staff).
Replenishment of tanks, infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers) with ammunition and refueling them during combat is carried out directly in combat formations, and when making a march, in areas of halts, daytime (night) rest, and upon arrival in the designated area. When it is impossible to bring ammunition and fuel to tanks, infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers) directly to combat formations, vehicles with ammunition and fuel come as close as possible to them. Tanks, infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers) alternately secretly approach the locations of vehicles for replenishing ammunition and fueling.

In case of AB this mean, that units ranned out of ammo mosly should move off-map for resuply, also "combat" in this terms have extremely flexible meaning and may be anything between two squads skirmish for couple of seconds and strategic operation with several divisions involved and lasts for veeks and months. Actually for Soviet Army incombat resuply under enemy fire is very rare case, and usually situation (or order) require unstoppable pushing forward and unit commanders may just have not time to resuply their unit.



zacklaws -> RE: Resupply? (11/20/2018 7:44:57 AM)

One of the issues in AB is the fact that every unit has a fixed amount of ammunition which cannot be changed in the scenario setup unless you mod the database to fit the scenario. But, in positional defence, a defending unit would have more ammunition stockpiled so it could hold out longer as it possible that a unit in defence may not have freedom of movement to get a ressuply. But in the attack, their is more freedom of movement, the attacking units ie infantry mainly may be carrying far more than the standard issue, but also a reserve of ammunition is probably held back on the units vehicles so it then becomes a case of runners going back to the vehicles for a resupply or the vehicles come forward a bit to meet them. And to keep them topped up whether defensive or offensive, supply vehicles from the echelons would come forward as far as is safe and from that point, ammunition issued out in the safest means possible. Also a rolling replen would also be carried out on a night which could be done very quickly for both armoured and infantry units which we practised a lot in the 80's when I was in the BAOR. Mortar lines etc in defence would have loads of predumped ammo and we would have it stored in the vehicle, in the mortar pits in the ammunition bays and we would even have it dug in close by we had that much ammunition, far in excess of the basic loadout

So in reality, unless you can alter the "loadouts" during the scenario creation to suit the postures of the two sides in AB, you cannot get a realistic scenario as both sides will be on a level playing field regarding ammunition.



exsonic01 -> RE: Resupply? (11/20/2018 2:35:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sorrow_Knight


quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01


All in all, I think Soviet army during cold war were capable of providing battlefield resupply / maintenance / limited repair service during middle of the battle. According to those descriptions, it looks very similar to "Service Center" type emergency field resupply of US Armor platoon / company. At least US intelligence evaluated the ability Soviet army field resupply in combat in good way.

But I don't have 1st hand FMs written in Russians for Red army, and I can't even read Russian. So I was looking for such materials. I'm also Curious how UK and FRG and other NATO nations did. I think it would be similar.


I`ve just quoted Soviet Army regulations where said next:
"Израсходованные запасы ракет, бое­припасов, горючего, продовольствия и других материальных средств должны пополняться до установленных норм.
Подвоз ракет, боеприпасов, горючего, про­довольствия и других материальных средств в подразделения осуществляется по устным заявкам командиров рот и отдельных взво­дов и приказу (приказанию) командира (на­чальника штаба) батальона.
Пополнение танков, боевых машин пехоты (бронетранспортеров) боеприпасами и за­правка их горючим в ходе боя производятся непосредственно в боевых порядках, а при совершении марша—в районах привалов, дневного (ночного) отдыха и по прибытии в назначенный район. При невозможности под­воза боеприпасов и горючего к танкам, бое­вым машинам пехоты (бронетранспортерам) непосредственно в боевые порядки транс­портные средства с боеприпасами и горючим подходят как можно ближе к ним. Танки, боевые машины пехоты (бронетранспортеры) поочередно скрытно подходят к местам рас­положения транспортных средств для попол­нения боеприпасами и заправки горючим."
(Google translate... sorry but it will take too long for me to translate this properly):
The spent reserves of missiles, ammunition, fuel, food and other materiel must be replenished to the established norms.
The delivery of missiles, ammunition, fuel, food and other materiel to the subunits is carried out at the oral requests of company commanders and individual platoons and the order (order) of the battalion commander (chief of staff).
Replenishment of tanks, infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers) with ammunition and refueling them during combat is carried out directly in combat formations, and when making a march, in areas of halts, daytime (night) rest, and upon arrival in the designated area. When it is impossible to bring ammunition and fuel to tanks, infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers) directly to combat formations, vehicles with ammunition and fuel come as close as possible to them. Tanks, infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers) alternately secretly approach the locations of vehicles for replenishing ammunition and fueling.

In case of AB this mean, that units ranned out of ammo mosly should move off-map for resuply, also "combat" in this terms have extremely flexible meaning and may be anything between two squads skirmish for couple of seconds and strategic operation with several divisions involved and lasts for veeks and months. Actually for Soviet Army incombat resuply under enemy fire is very rare case, and usually situation (or order) require unstoppable pushing forward and unit commanders may just have not time to resuply their unit.


Thanks for the info. But I think such "service station" type resupply would be still doable for both faction, NATO and PACT, preferably from "medium" or "big" scenario. FM 100-2-2 also offer a table for "Location of Tactical Logistics Element" for typical Soviet army, including battalion and company in page 13-5. There, they can have logistics station maximum 4~5km back from front (battalion), and company can have such station 100~200m behind (only for defense ops).

So... make resupply truck expensive, and only available at huge games, like greater than 10km x 10km size or greater than 15k point. Or, make a limit to introduce such "battlefield service station" available only from battalion size forces. That would be historically accurate for both sides for combat resupply option, and possible using this game system.

FMs clearly mentioned about battlefield resupply and limited repair during combat in FM, and people who served in army (US and FRG) support such action is doable. So I think resupply is an option would help the game to follow more realistic, and make game more enjoyable.



gbem -> RE: Resupply? (11/20/2018 2:40:12 PM)

i honestly dont think resupply is beyond the scope of this game... although resupply for tanks can occur in 30 minutes to an hour via a dedicated supply... this is doable within the confines of large battles in AB which can last as long as 4 hours or more... also infantry and artillery especially foot artillery should be readily resuppliable via trucks apcs IFVs etc....



Sorrow_Knight -> RE: Resupply? (11/20/2018 4:37:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

There, they can have logistics station maximum 4~5km back from front (battalion), and company can have such station 100~200m behind (only for defense ops)

Exactly what I`ve said about- during defensive operations there could be service stations and even fully equipped machine-shops where tank could be unmounted till last nail, repaired and mounted back, but in attack there is no time to wait for evac transports/ammo trucks and so on, damaged vehicles will be just stopped and will wait for higher level unit evac\repair transport while company/batallion will go forward without it... Soviet doctrine based on fastest possible moving from defence to full-scale attack actions and defemsive actions there seems possible only if there is no any options to continue pushing worward and crush enemy lines.



exsonic01 -> RE: Resupply? (11/20/2018 5:49:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sorrow_Knight
Exactly what I`ve said about- during defensive operations there could be service stations and even fully equipped machine-shops where tank could be unmounted till last nail, repaired and mounted back, but in attack there is no time to wait for evac transports/ammo trucks and so on, damaged vehicles will be just stopped and will wait for higher level unit evac\repair transport while company/batallion will go forward without it... Soviet doctrine based on fastest possible moving from defence to full-scale attack actions and defemsive actions there seems possible only if there is no any options to continue pushing worward and crush enemy lines.

Yeah, and that is why I think it is still possible for both factions, "with the limitation of game size". This game can depict platoon ~ brigade level battle. I think it would be reasonable + historically accurate to introduce such "service station" type resupply function from battalion size games.



Adam Rinkleff -> RE: Resupply? (11/20/2018 6:19:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01
ORIGINAL: Sorrow_Knight

Yeah, and that is why I think it is still possible for both factions, "with the limitation of game size". This game can depict platoon ~ brigade level battle. I think it would be reasonable + historically accurate to introduce such "service station" type resupply function from battalion size games.


Yah, I wouldn't be surprised to see it. I don't think the coding would be much more difficult that creating the sprites, and setting up a timer system for resupply (similar to reloading) and then a logistics radius which acts similar to command radius. Probably not gonna happen right away, as there are other priorities, but I would imagine that it can and will be implemented at some point. The battle sizes are large enough that AB can enter this unexplored territory of wargaming. Other games haven't taken squad level combat to the division/brigade level, so it will be original!



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