RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (Full Version)

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Zorch -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/24/2018 2:30:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Speaking of the subs around Hawaii....

Looks like my midget sub attack went..... let's just say the results of the attack were not necessarily to Japan's advantage.


However, you destroyed an industrial structure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_PeQCPq8QA



Chickenboy -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/24/2018 3:55:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Once again a huge thanks for all the input on naval air. I will stick with the orders previously given (not because I am ignoring all the advice but because the purpose this AAR is to give newbies like me a starting point - without your input frankly this would be unmanageable for me - and not a perfect set up to the detriment of my opponent). So whilst I've taken on board the range comments for future turns, I won't change my orders in post 194. I've chosen not to have individual carriers responsible for certain duties as I was swayed by the idea that its like putting all eggs in one basket in case of loss.

I have ordered the rest of the KB's aircraft as follows:

[image]local://upfiles/28156/9F32478D82974DA8B76F06234DC0ACAF.jpg[/image]


You'll have to dig down for more detail to make this chart meaningful and useful for Nav float recon capabilities, Warspite1.

I specifically am suggesting that you identify the presence of your CS ships and incorporate them into KB's Nav search functionality. Where are they, if they're not on that list of yours? Chitose and Chiyoda are capable of keeping up with fast fleet CVs. Where are they?

The range should be dictated by the type of float plane flown. Petes are at extreme range =4, so dial 'em back to 3 for maximum longevity. Likewise, 'normal' range for Jakes is 8, so there's no reason not to set them accordingly. I wouldn't be afraid to set 60%-70% search, normal range for my Nav search float planes. You may want to dial that back to 50% for your ASW, as that low altitude tends to be more fatiguing than a more conventional modest altitude.

Also, you do remember that any plane set on "ASW" is, by its definition, only flying half the purported distance, neh? Thus your range =4 ASW float planes in reality won't perform this mission more than 2 hexes distant. In which case, you've likely run over the sub in question and defeated the purpose of such a short range effort.



warspite1 -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/24/2018 7:42:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

You'll have to dig down for more detail to make this chart meaningful and useful for Nav float recon capabilities, Warspite1.

I specifically am suggesting that you identify the presence of your CS ships and incorporate them into KB's Nav search functionality. Where are they, if they're not on that list of yours? Chitose and Chiyoda are capable of keeping up with fast fleet CVs. Where are they?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


For the ships that have more than one floatplane group, I'd move one group off and resize the remaining group to the maximum size. That way you can get a couple more land-based floatplane squadrons for no extra cost. There are plenty of areas within the Japanese Empire that you'll want floatplane coverage of, but not need a full squadron to do so.

warspite1

Mmmm I'm not really sure what this means at this stage - but I'll take a look at this next - and may amend some of the float plane orders (certainly the range of the ASW units as a minimum).

Chitose starts in the Carolines and Chiyoda is at Hiroshima. According to Kull's first turn suggestion, Chitose is to form an Amphibious TF (not sure of the purpose) and then moves to the 'Marianas & Marshalls(?)' to resize sea plane units (presumably what m_m is referring to). There is a plan for Chiyoda which I've yet to get my head around but involves forming the 'baby KB'; 59 steps to this for day 2 alone!!



Chickenboy -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/24/2018 7:48:55 PM)

Kull is certainly entitled to his opinion, but my opinion is that Chitose and Chiyoda form a badly needed supplement to KB at this stage of the game. Gaming up your float plane groups is something for a couple months from now when you have a surplus of decent float planes in the pools. No reason at all one of these fine CS cruisers can't be helping your sharpest tool's schwerpunkt.



Anachro -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/24/2018 8:19:22 PM)

It also depends how you plan to use your KB and your expansion choices. If KB is going to be operating deep in enemy territory where recon is light, say in the deep South Pacific or *cough* off Midway, it probably makes sense to incorporate your CS ships and their additional nav search capabilities. If you are operating and plan to keep expansion well within range of LBA nav search augmented by your existing carrier and escort search capabilities, this isn't necessarily needed.

You don't want to lose your CS ships early to a lucky sub torpedo or some other attrition as they are valuable for conversion later on. So if you plan to operate them before that, be careful and don't operate them alone without the KB and ASW assets nearby.

EDIT

As for the CS conversion, you need to have a size 50 repair yard at Tokyo as that's the only place where they will convert and it requires such a shipyard size, so make sure you are upgrading the repair shipyards there.



mind_messing -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/24/2018 9:16:09 PM)

Basically, some IJN warships have two floatplane squadrons on board, usually flying different planes. You don't need two squadrons, so you can fly one squadron off, and make the other squadron bigger to compensate for the lost planes. The flown-off squadron can then be used for other stuff.

Regarding the immediate use of the CS ships, I'd get the Mizuho to do your floatplane resizing. It's a slow 22 knot ship that will perform terribly if it ever gets caught in a surface engagement.

The Chitose and Chiyoda belong with your carriers IMO. It's up to you if you prefer them with a Baby KB or with the Daddy KB. I personally prefer the latter, they eventually upgrade into pretty reasonable CVL's and keeping them with the big KB keeps them safe.



warspite1 -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 4:34:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Kull is certainly entitled to his opinion, but my opinion is that Chitose and Chiyoda form a badly needed supplement to KB at this stage of the game. Gaming up your float plane groups is something for a couple months from now when you have a surplus of decent float planes in the pools. No reason at all one of these fine CS cruisers can't be helping your sharpest tool's schwerpunkt.
warspite1

And just to be clear, I am not necessarily favouring Kull's opinion over others given here (as has been shown above). I am using Kull's spreadsheet in order to provide some structure to the first Japanese turn - which frankly would be almost impossible without - but amending in light of advice received.

Using Chitose and Chiyoda with the KB is not something I would have even considered for a second without the comments here - but I understand the merits.



warspite1 -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 4:37:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

You don't want to lose your CS ships early to a lucky sub torpedo or some other attrition as they are valuable for conversion later on. So if you plan to operate them before that, be careful and don't operate them alone without the KB and ASW assets nearby.

warspite1

Okay I'll have a look at what Kull has planned for the CS ships and bear this in mind.

As for conversion I will need to remember to look at that later too.



warspite1 -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 4:39:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Basically, some IJN warships have two floatplane squadrons on board, usually flying different planes. You don't need two squadrons, so you can fly one squadron off, and make the other squadron bigger to compensate for the lost planes. The flown-off squadron can then be used for other stuff.

Regarding the immediate use of the CS ships, I'd get the Mizuho to do your floatplane resizing. It's a slow 22 knot ship that will perform terribly if it ever gets caught in a surface engagement.

The Chitose and Chiyoda belong with your carriers IMO. It's up to you if you prefer them with a Baby KB or with the Daddy KB. I personally prefer the latter, they eventually upgrade into pretty reasonable CVL's and keeping them with the big KB keeps them safe.
warspite1

Okay so I will need to look at the CS next and the float plane resizing too.....

Let's see what Kull has in mind for these ships.



warspite1 -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 4:44:33 AM)

Kull proposes the following:

CVL-CVE-CS Unit Resize Plan

Opening move sequence to maximise the "Resize Air Unit Plan" for CVLs Ryujo & Zuiho, CVEs Hosho & Taiyo, CS Chiyoda, various AV/BB/CAs, and 4 land-based IJN air units:

1. Create an Air Combat TF containing only CVL Zuiho

[image]local://upfiles/28156/6DB107AAB6A4405C83F2DAA4C1553692.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 6:04:41 AM)

CVL-CVE-CS Unit Resize Plan

2. Select the Size 9 Kate unit, click the "No resize allowed" text once (changes to "Resize to fit ship")

3. Disband the Air Combat TF, look at the Kate unit and you'll see the size has changed to "12"

[image]local://upfiles/28156/C9C1685BD81640F29638CC41211364DC.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 6:13:31 AM)

CVL-CVE-CS Unit Resize Plan

4. Once again create the Air Combat TF containing only CVL Zuiho (undocked) and transfer the now-Size 12 Kate unit to Hiroshima, add 18 Veteran Pilots, set unit to Train: 100-Naval Attack, Alt: 8K, Range: 0

(Note 1: You have to create the TF before transferring an air unit to the base, otherwise all planes are damaged. Note 2: The reason we performed the partial re-size (to 12) is so we can add new pilots right away, which was not possible when it was still at Size 9).

[image]local://upfiles/28156/B2BFA54F5F5B4E3483E643A9B54CC562.jpg[/image]



warspite1 -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 6:23:53 AM)

CVL-CVE-CS Unit Resize Plan

"....add 18 Veteran Pilots,"

Something appears to have gone awry here. The instructions were to get 18 veteran pilots. As can be seen above the options appeared to be:

Get New Pilot
Get 4 Pilots
Request Veteran

There is also a From button (which I didn't touch).

I'm not sure what I clicked on but I seem to have ended up with 16 pilots - not 18 and these are not veterans - four and very low experience levels. It's annoying that I can't recall what I clicked on to get where I did - but does anyone know what I should have done to follow Kull's instructions and obtained 18 veteran pilots?

[image]local://upfiles/28156/81EEAEB445CE439E86513BCFBE2CDAC4.jpg[/image]



GetAssista -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 8:59:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I'm not sure what I clicked on but I seem to have ended up with 16 pilots - not 18 and these are not veterans - four and very low experience levels. It's annoying that I can't recall what I clicked on to get where I did - but does anyone know what I should have done to follow Kull's instructions and obtained 18 veteran pilots?

Somewhere down the Kull's list there can be another IJNAF airgroup with the remark "send all veteran pilots to reserve"



BBfanboy -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 2:04:04 PM)

quote:

warspite1: ... transfer the now-Size 12 Kate unit to Hiroshima, add 18 Veteran Pilots, set unit to Train: 100-Naval Attack, Alt: 8K, Range: 0


The altitude is not optimal in my book. Unless someone can tell me why 8K is needed during a training mission, I suggest that 1K is the best altitude to get both the NavT skill training and Defensive skill, which accumulates much faster at low altitude. 100 feet is best for Defensive training but that height will change the skill training to Strafe instead of NavT, so it is not viable.



Chickenboy -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 4:34:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Kull is certainly entitled to his opinion, but my opinion is that Chitose and Chiyoda form a badly needed supplement to KB at this stage of the game. Gaming up your float plane groups is something for a couple months from now when you have a surplus of decent float planes in the pools. No reason at all one of these fine CS cruisers can't be helping your sharpest tool's schwerpunkt.
warspite1

And just to be clear, I am not necessarily favouring Kull's opinion over others given here (as has been shown above). I am using Kull's spreadsheet in order to provide some structure to the first Japanese turn - which frankly would be almost impossible without - but amending in light of advice received.

Using Chitose and Chiyoda with the KB is not something I would have even considered for a second without the comments here - but I understand the merits.



Aye. I don't want to complicate matters further, but I will. [:)] When you get "Rufe" float fighters, circa April 1942, these can replace existing float scout planes on the CS ships and further supplement your KB's CAP capabilities. So there's another benefit of using them pre-CVL conversion too. But you don't have these yet, so naval search will be their raison d'etre.



rustysi -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 4:44:02 PM)

quote:

I'm not sure what I clicked on but I seem to have ended up with 16 pilots - not 18 and these are not veterans - four and very low experience levels. It's annoying that I can't recall what I clicked on to get where I did - but does anyone know what I should have done to follow Kull's instructions and obtained 18 veteran pilots?


I can only say that 99% of the time I select my pilots manually. Oh, and do a save right before in case you mess up.[:D]

Look at the top image of post 222. Middle left you'll see three 'radio' buttons. Select the one that says, 'Request Veteran'. This will take you to your reserve pools. The first one that comes up is 'Group', you don't want this one (normally). Click on it (its yellow and anything yellow is something you could 'drill down' on), it'll change to 'Reserve' and you may select your pilots from here or click the name again and go to the 'TRACOM' and select pilots. You do this be clicking on the pilots name. There will be a 'transit delay' before the pilot joins the new unit.

Edit:BTW you only have 16 pilots because you can only get 1/3 more pilots above the size of the group. IOW, group size = 12 + 1/3 = 4 more =16.



Chickenboy -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 4:45:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

CVL-CVE-CS Unit Resize Plan

"....add 18 Veteran Pilots,"

Something appears to have gone awry here. The instructions were to get 18 veteran pilots. As can be seen above the options appeared to be:

Get New Pilot
Get 4 Pilots
Request Veteran

There is also a From button (which I didn't touch).

I'm not sure what I clicked on but I seem to have ended up with 16 pilots - not 18 and these are not veterans - four and very low experience levels. It's annoying that I can't recall what I clicked on to get where I did - but does anyone know what I should have done to follow Kull's instructions and obtained 18 veteran pilots?

[image]local://upfiles/28156/81EEAEB445CE439E86513BCFBE2CDAC4.jpg[/image]


These 16 pilots are the pilots currently in the Kate group aboard Zuiho. The unit is currently full of pilots-it's maxed out. You can't add 18 more pilots to it. Per your second image of post #222, the 'Get New Pilot' button is greyed out, as is the "Request Veteran" button.

You will need to 'dump' these pilots into the reserve pools before you can replace them with other pilots. I'm not sure what Kull's methodology is referring to here.

Lastly, you have 'sorted' the pilot table by "Exp" rating. I find that the least helpful header to sort out CV pilots. Kate pilots should be preferentially sorted out by NavT rating primary and NavB rating secondarily. You have some serviceable torpedo plane pilots in there that could be useful in their current position. I'd get rid of Oyama, Nagano, Fujiwara and Asada for sure-they're pretty green.



rustysi -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 4:53:48 PM)

TBH, I'm not even sure what Kull's motivation is in this instance. My CVL's are normally an inherent part of my KB-lite in the early going. My group sizes are simple, 21 fighters, 9 TB's. Why? This CVL carries 18 torps and a group of 9 means two full strikes with torps. KISS (keep it simple silly)!!!![:D]



rustysi -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 5:09:32 PM)

quote:

Regarding the immediate use of the CS ships, I'd get the Mizuho to do your floatplane resizing.


Limitation here is that its only a 20 capacity vessel, I prefer the 24 capacity Chitose and/or Chiyoda.

quote:

Okay so I will need to look at the CS next


These little buggers are IMHO some of the most useful and versatile vessels in the early Japanese arsenal.

Uses:

Resize, search, ASW, CAP, conversion.

Yes, I said CAP. I sometimes use Pete's as ersatz fighters. Of course you wouldn't do this if real fighters were in range, but transfer them to a port and use them to help cover things while you resize onboard the CS or some such.



rustysi -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 5:19:11 PM)

Oh, and I said ASW above as well. Its not just for the CS's either. All my 'ship divisions' train in two things WRT their float planes. Search, which at game start is pretty much accomplished, and ASW. When at sea one BB, or CA runs search while at least one other in the TF runs ASW with its float planes.



rustysi -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 5:25:25 PM)

quote:

Aye. I don't want to complicate matters further, but I will. When you get "Rufe" float fighters, circa April 1942, these can replace existing float scout planes on the CS ships and further supplement your KB's CAP capabilities. So there's another benefit of using them pre-CVL conversion too. But you don't have these yet, so naval search will be their raison d'etre.


To this I'd like to add that some of these 'Rufe' units are limited to 9 aircraft, perfect for using your AV's (capacity 9) as ersatz carriers. Of course in 'low traffic', low threat areas.[;)]




Chickenboy -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 5:27:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Regarding the immediate use of the CS ships, I'd get the Mizuho to do your floatplane resizing.


Limitation here is that its only a 20 capacity vessel, I prefer the 24 capacity Chitose and/or Chiyoda.



Moot point. Early war Jake pools (and other float plane pools for that matter) are smallish. If you use up your pools during the resizing process, you'll strip them from front line replacements. Rather than disagree about whether 20 or 24 float planes is the optimal resizing size, I'd rather say-categorically-that resizing planes in this manner on turn one is way too early.

When the time comes to resize, I agree with the use of Mizuho in this capacity. Chitose / Chiyoda can operate with KB / mKB and not slow them down too much. That capability far exceeds the benefits of an additional 4 plane float training group.



rustysi -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 5:46:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Regarding the immediate use of the CS ships, I'd get the Mizuho to do your floatplane resizing.


Limitation here is that its only a 20 capacity vessel, I prefer the 24 capacity Chitose and/or Chiyoda.



Moot point. Early war Jake pools (and other float plane pools for that matter) are smallish. If you use up your pools during the resizing process, you'll strip them from front line replacements. Rather than disagree about whether 20 or 24 float planes is the optimal resizing size, I'd rather say-categorically-that resizing planes in this manner on turn one is way too early.

When the time comes to resize, I agree with the use of Mizuho in this capacity. Chitose / Chiyoda can operate with KB / mKB and not slow them down too much. That capability far exceeds the benefits of an additional 4 plane float training group.


I resize all, right from day one. Doesn't mean I attempt to fill them all. I just put most of them right back on their vessels with the few floats they have and use them normally. They're very useful in their intended function early in the game, even those one plane units on Japanese CL's.

While CS's are busy resizing I train up their groups as best as possible.



rustysi -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 5:48:40 PM)

quote:

That capability far exceeds the benefits of an additional 4 plane float training group.


They're far from training groups, they become my 'eyes' by the end of '42.



rustysi -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 6:16:27 PM)

quote:

Early war Jake pools (and other float plane pools for that matter) are smallish.


I use anything and everything in order to train these guys up, including excess Glens. Yup, I build them out until their engine pool is empty. Jake's go to 90/month production. So far non-stop into late Mar '43. Only aircraft I have that I have done this with.



GetAssista -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 7:08:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
Moot point. Early war Jake pools (and other float plane pools for that matter) are smallish. If you use up your pools during the resizing process, you'll strip them from front line replacements. Rather than disagree about whether 20 or 24 float planes is the optimal resizing size, I'd rather say-categorically-that resizing planes in this manner on turn one is way too early.

You don't need to fill the resized training FP groups with airframes right away. Active duty gets the priority of course. But training would still commence even with 0-1-2 airframes per 24 sized group albeit slower. There are readily available starting pools of obsolete engines to gradually produce training airframes from.
And yes, resizing better be done early cause, as you rightly noted, CS-es are valuable scouting platforms afterwards



Zorch -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 7:13:29 PM)

It's been 15 posts since Warspite posted - think we should let him have a word in his own AAR?



Chickenboy -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 7:33:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

It's been 15 posts since Warspite posted - think we should let him have a word in his own AAR?

Now it's 16. [:'(]



witpqs -> RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A) (12/27/2018 8:14:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

It's been 15 posts since Warspite posted - think we should let him have a word in his own AAR?

Now it's 16. [:'(]

(17) But I thought 'newbies' had to wait until the rest of us posted first?



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