helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (Full Version)

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gbem -> helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/27/2018 2:09:32 PM)

helicopters too resistant to SAM fire... even older helicopters without flares or ECM like the KIOWA or an MI4 seem to be capable of doging and surviving multiple SAM hits... i find this odd... ive seen videos of light helicopters going down to a single stinger or strela shot...



varangy -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/27/2018 2:42:37 PM)

The same can be said for airplanes. Multiple missile hits and AAA firing on them and they still fly onwards.



gbem -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/27/2018 2:45:13 PM)

stalinium MI-4s and freedomium kiowas XD



Perturabo -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/27/2018 3:20:49 PM)

There should be some distinction between aircraft equipped with counter-measures and ones not equipped with them.
Also, it would be cool if there were animations of flares and chaffs being fired.



kevinkins -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/27/2018 3:34:31 PM)

I am finding enemy choppers are more vulnerable to a platoon of tank MG fire than SAMs. I remember one successful SAM hit. Switched to M163 vulcan last night and it worked better, although the range is shorter. Maybe choppers spend too much time out of LOS for SAM systems to acquire.

Kevin



Veitikka -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/27/2018 3:59:07 PM)

In real life helicopters are better at using terrain features as cover.



gbem -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/27/2018 8:16:39 PM)

Yeah but i doubt surviving 4x SA 13s can be done with kiowas



blackcloud6 -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/28/2018 1:11:07 PM)

The SA-13 has about a 500m minimum range and minimum engagement angle of 40 degrees. The OH-58s might be able to stay below that and thus the missiles miss. Which is why they are called "missiles" and "hittles." [:D] [;)]



gerardo -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/28/2018 2:08:54 PM)

Maybe you missed the original post but they were HIT (multiple times)



zacklaws -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/28/2018 2:26:09 PM)

You can bring down an artillery barrage down on helicopters as well and despite only hovering 50 metres or 80 metres above the ground, it does not destroy them, damage them or even drive them away. As they can be game changers and you can hardly do anything about them, including aircraft, as I manually pick the units for each side, I rarely ever select aircraft or helicopters.



gerardo -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/28/2018 2:51:55 PM)

Not good, must be a bug



kevinkins -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/28/2018 5:52:50 PM)

The AI seems to bring their choppers in ASAP and can ruin your day at the outset to the battle. I put AA up with the lead units but have been consistently losing 3-5 of the point units. I have been planning for this initial loss in Advance type battles for a few days now. It might be my OOBs are too small and the chopper sections are having a disportionate affect on the battle.

Kevin



gbem -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/28/2018 6:29:29 PM)

i just modded SAMS with 500 damage and they accurately oneshot helicopters now... its pretty neat



Eambar -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/28/2018 10:28:11 PM)

In my current battle I've lost more armored vehicles to air (helos and fixed wing) than I have ground, including three vehicles in about 10 seconds to a MiG.

My AA has been ineffective against the fixed wing, including a battery of Gepards. I haven't had anything shoot at the helos so I don't know if they are resistant to AA or not. I'm still trying to work out how to determine the LoS to a helicopter (does it differ from the usual LOS shown by the LOS tool) and why some vehicles (eg Marder 1A1A2) can't/won't shoot at them. I was thinking maybe it was gun elevation?

Next time I'm stocking up big on AA assets.

Cheers



zacklaws -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/28/2018 10:53:08 PM)

quote:

Next time I'm stocking up big on AA assets.


I think you will need more than just "stocking up Big". About an hour ago, I created a scenario on the North German map in the South East corner where there is a vast open space to put AA units to the test. I selected 20 AA units, Rapier, Javelin and blowpipe and manually selected a vast fleet of different aircraft and helicopters. Soon as an aircraft or helicopter appeared, it was mass volley fire at them and it was a rarity for one to be hit. I could not count how many missiles were fired in total, up to about 8 at a time just for one target, but only 4 helicopters were brought down overall. All aircraft just flew through the volley of missiles with impunity as if they was not there.

Eventually, I'll alter the database if I ever feel a need for aircraft and helicopters in a scenario.



Eambar -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/29/2018 2:06:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zacklaws

quote:

Next time I'm stocking up big on AA assets.


I think you will need more than just "stocking up Big". About an hour ago, I created a scenario on the North German map in the South East corner where there is a vast open space to put AA units to the test. I selected 20 AA units, Rapier, Javelin and blowpipe and manually selected a vast fleet of different aircraft and helicopters. Soon as an aircraft or helicopter appeared, it was mass volley fire at them and it was a rarity for one to be hit. I could not count how many missiles were fired in total, up to about 8 at a time just for one target, but only 4 helicopters were brought down overall. All aircraft just flew through the volley of missiles with impunity as if they was not there.

Eventually, I'll alter the database if I ever feel a need for aircraft and helicopters in a scenario.


Thanks, I don't feel so bad now that my Gepards appear not to be able to hit the side of a barn. Maybe I'll give the AA a miss then, and use the points elsewhere (although I have used a Vulcan against infantry, got to love the sound of a minigun!)


Maybe we need some CMNAO type algorithims for the engagement of aircraft.


Cheers



CapnDarwin -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/29/2018 2:18:41 AM)

Is the issue hit versus miss or hit versus kill?



gbem -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/29/2018 2:48:37 AM)

Hit vs kill actually... the modded 500 damage SAMs efficiently kill helos



Veitikka -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/29/2018 3:05:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zacklaws

You can bring down an artillery barrage down on helicopters as well and despite only hovering 50 metres or 80 metres above the ground, it does not destroy them, damage them or even drive them away.


zacklaws, I believe we've discussed this with you a few times on the Beta forums. Currently artillery doesn't damage aircraft. Works as designed.

To others: Are you aware that aircraft can abort their attack and escape via the closest map edge when they take fire, even if they're not damaged? This happens quite often.



Veitikka -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/29/2018 4:05:19 AM)

I just did three attack runs on a default sized NTC map. A flight of MiG-27 vs a section of Roland SAMs. Every time one of the aircraft aborted its attack and escaped or was shot down.



gerardo -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/29/2018 8:01:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

quote:

ORIGINAL: zacklaws

You can bring down an artillery barrage down on helicopters as well and despite only hovering 50 metres or 80 metres above the ground, it does not destroy them, damage them or even drive them away.


zacklaws, I believe we've discussed this with you a few times on the Beta forums. Currently artillery doesn't damage aircraft. Works as designed.

To others: Are you aware that aircraft can abort their attack and escape via the closest map edge when they take fire, even if they're not damaged? This happens quite often.




Ok so it's not a bug but a design decision but why? Too difficult to implement?



varangy -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/29/2018 8:10:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie3

I have used a Vulcan against infantry, got to love the sound of a minigun!)



Yeah I decided to bring more AAA than AAM stuff, at least they are effective against infantry.



noooooo -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/29/2018 2:05:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

I just did three attack runs on a default sized NTC map. A flight of MiG-27 vs a section of Roland SAMs. Every time one of the aircraft aborted its attack and escaped or was shot down.



Surprise surprise, the OP is citing anecdotal evidence and his feelings again. [8|] In other news, water is wet.



gbem -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/29/2018 2:10:07 PM)

quote:

Surprise surprise, the OP is citing anecdotal evidence and his feelings again. In other news, water is wet.


citing anecdotal evidence*... soo apparently all the tests i conducted with my 500 damage SAM is anecdotal... id guess someone went too far with his feelings here



noooooo -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/29/2018 2:15:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gbem

quote:

Surprise surprise, the OP is citing anecdotal evidence and his feelings again. In other news, water is wet.


citing anecdotal evidence*... soo apparently all the tests i conducted with my 500 damage SAM is anecdotal... id guess someone went too far with his feelings here


Having feelings is fine my dude. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with feeling strongly about something. As long as you don't cite your feelings as a source as if it's reality, it's normal for humans to feel emotional about things.



gbem -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/29/2018 2:18:58 PM)

quote:

Having feelings is fine my dude. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with feeling strongly about something. As long as you don't cite your feelings as a source as if it's reality, it's normal for humans to feel emotional about things.


claiming that i used "feelings" instead of tests actually conducted using the game engine using the modded 500 damage OSA is ridiculous



gbem -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/29/2018 2:39:02 PM)

hey nooo how about conducting the tests i did... set ur AAM to 500 damage and let loose a swarm of aircraft... see how fast they die...

ive conducted 3 tests... in all 3 tests the A-10 had smoke on the first missile hit and crashed soon after



zacklaws -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/29/2018 3:08:23 PM)

I conducted a couple of tests this morning, the last one was on the NTC, 12 air defence sections (24 fire units) consisting of Gepard and Roland vs 19 flights of aircraft and helicopters. Not once did I get a flight to abort. But by the end of the scenario, all 38 aircraft had been shot down, only 20 "wrecks" on the map, so the other 18 must have crashed off map. How many Rolands had been launched and AA ammunition expended I do not know. In my first scenario around 10 to 15 missiles were needed to "down" an helicopter in volley fire.

First picture, all aircraft engaged by multiple fire units.

[image]local://upfiles/23637/335E74E881F74986B4C21BA217D90E41.jpg[/image]



zacklaws -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/29/2018 3:10:29 PM)

The aircraft fly through the barrage having engaged the ground tgts. No sign of aborted mission

[image]local://upfiles/23637/DF1296F1DC094B56B831F279362D818B.jpg[/image]



zacklaws -> RE: helicopters too resistant to SAM fire (11/29/2018 3:12:17 PM)

Engagement over, no aircraft appeared to be hit, but unknown if any damaged and crashed off map.

This type of engagement was typical of the whole scenario.

In all fairness looking at it now, the map is not very wide, maybe with a wider map, its possible the aircraft may have aborted having a longer flight time before reaching the AA defences and maybe locked up by radar etc for longer. But I will try that out later if I have time. If not next week now.

[image]local://upfiles/23637/67EDEF18DF8347D7BB7B7A5A4DD2D5D3.jpg[/image]



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