Supply issues break the game (Full Version)

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Numdydar -> Supply issues break the game (12/14/2018 2:06:25 PM)

Since my issues with supply from War in Europe, I was hoping this version of the game would be better. Unfortunately they are not. I actually think it has gotten worse.

Some examples.
No 1
Landed a para and corp in SE England. These had captured a lv5 city with NO path back to Germany. No Port, etc.
It took the AI 12 TURNS to kill them off. Why? Because the Lv5 city kept them in supply good enough for them to last against 3-4 corps and an army. Not to mention the air bombardment.
I will mention that neither of these units could get any replacements at all.

No 2
A different test. Destroyed the unit in Southampton and para dropped in. So this unit actually did have a supply path. landed another para two hexes north with no city/port/etc. Just plain open ground.
AI attacked both. The unit in Southampton took 1 hit. The other was attacked three times and destroyed in ONE turn. The way out of supply should work. Even if it took two turns, I'd still be ok with that.

No 3
Italy goes to war in May '40. Runs two armies and HQ up to the first city in Algeria. June the Allied city is cut off from the rest of Algeria and attacked with planes and the two armies. Get it down to 5. It builds back up to 8. So far so good as mainland France is still active.
Paris falls in July and capture all of mainland France by Sept. Still have not been able to kill off the 8 strength corp.
Three turns later, still cannot kill off the corp. Get it down to 2 but it still builds back to 8 EVERY TURN.
For the record a corp typically had three divisions with each division having about 10K men. So a corp has about 30K men. Not to mention all the heavy equipment, etc. that goes along with a corp structure.
So this means EVERY month an isolated corp in Algeria gets to replace 10-20K of its manpower. Where the hell are these TRAINED people coming from?
For a comparison, an Italian 8 str Army in Tobrok was destroyed in just four turns by attacking army/corp/AT units. The army was NOT cut off either.

Also, once Italy goes to war with the Allies, they should not be getting any replacements in East Africa either. I have destroyed several units because I could replace all my losses which highlights the same issue as #3 above.

The only way I can see to fix this is to require units to trace a path back to an original national capital (and/or maybe an original Industrial center) in order to get more than one replacement a turn. Russia would be the exception to the original capital requirement as their capital can change several times.



elmo3 -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/14/2018 2:15:56 PM)

Agree somewhat. Grinding an enemy army down to one strength and then watching it rebuild completely in one month does not feel very realistic, to me anyway.



Numdydar -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/14/2018 2:25:21 PM)

I can accept the instant buildup as it is a game mechanic versus being realistic. It keeps the game moving along without having to worry about training replacement, equipment replacement, etc.

As long as you have a path back to the homeland it works really well for like 70% of the game. Once you start talking overseas supply and cutoff units, the system can totally break down into absurdities.



elmo3 -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/14/2018 5:59:51 PM)

I don't think getting into training replacements, equipment replacement etc. is needed, just a cap on how many points a unit can replace/repair in one turn. Maybe 3 or 4 points as an example, but it's probably not likely to be changed unless someone mods it, if that is even possible.



steevodeevo -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/14/2018 6:10:37 PM)

Dramatic statement. I've played all but one episodes of SC and this release extensively (and can win it at standard level) and I see no fundamental flaws with Supply at all. The invasion of Britain is incredibly difficult, to the extent that I would rather invade Russia (early). Partisans and Supply AI in Britain is an intentional nightmare. The Italians are weak early/mid in WW2 and unless you can keep them in the game long enough to upgrade production, and combat tech they're pretty useless throughout. They can be made valuable in the late war, especially in Africa and in defence of Europe, if you hang on to North Africa and the Italian mainland (with German support) and develop their tech, production and efficiency.



Xenocide -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/14/2018 6:40:45 PM)

Lowering the reinforcement rate for a unit would greatly advantage the attacker the way the game is built as they can concentrate on a few units while spreading their losses among many. Realistically the loss of morale and readiness is punishment enough. Eventually it becomes not worth it to reinforce a unit and it needs to be removed from the front line.



Hubert Cater -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/14/2018 6:49:11 PM)

By default, if you have 2 of your units adjacent an enemy unit in a city, town etc., then the strength of that city will be reduced by 1 per turn. Then if that unit is cutoff from another linked supply source city, or HQ and so on, this eventually leads to a supply attrition and limit on just how much the trapped unit can reinforce.

That being said, and this might have been missed for anyone skipping the release notes but we did implement two addtional fundamental changes to supply and how it applies to semi isolated and cutoff units that I believe would apply and address the concerns posted above.

- ports no longer provide supply to land units if there is an enemy land unit adjacent to the port.
- minor nation Capitals, Fortresses with 2 or more adjacent enemy units will now have their supply reduced by one strength point per turn.

1) For this case in the UK, if the AI had placed up to 2 units adjacent to the lone unit on the city and one of these adjacent units was also next to a port captured by your German unit, then the ability of your unit to reinforce would have been reduced over time. The German unit still benefits from some defensive bonuses from being in the city, but the eventual lack of supply would make it easier to knock this unit out. Now the AI might not do an optimal job of this, but a human player knowing these rules can definitely take advantage in a more effective way.

2) The unit in Southampton probably still had too high of a supply at the time of the initial AI attack and the defensive bonuses related to being in the city, but as mentioned in my response to 1) this would be mitigated over a few turns with optimal force placement adjacent to the trapped unit in Southampton.

3) Same as my responses to 1) and 2).


Hopefully these rules not only help but also help to recreate situations where when supply is not fully cut off, i.e. an available supply port, or if there are not enough units in force to lower the strength and as a result supply of a resource, that units logically have the chance to hold out longer than normal. For example, we not only want to be able to have more effective island hopping in the Pacific where the Allies can render Japanese supply ineffective more quickly, but also that some units should be able to hold out longer if insufficient force is brought to bear against them.






Hubert Cater -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/14/2018 8:03:50 PM)

Forgot to mention that we also have attrition losses (introduced later on in WiE under v1.10) once a unit does get to 0 supply which should help now as well when combined with some of the new rules above:

- units at 0 supply may now suffer desertion losses if they are adjacent to at least 2 front line ZoC enemy units that have a minimum strength and supply >= 5. They will then have a 50% chance of 1 strength point loss per adjacent unit. If they are reduced to 0 strength then the unit surrenders.
- units at 1 supply may now suffer desertion losses if they are adjacent to at least 2 front line ZoC enemy units that have a minimum strength and supply >= 5. They will then have a 20% chance of 1 strength point loss per adjacent unit. If they are reduced to 0 strength then the unit surrenders.



Numdydar -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/14/2018 10:17:58 PM)

Everything you have said is how I thought things were fixed. But it is not working like that.

So a picture is needed [:)]

This is how things have been since August '40. It is now Dec and I have been unable to kill the corp in the city. It keeps getting replacements up to str 8. And I said in my OP "From where?!"



[image]local://upfiles/10981/A95209FC2C964A40A69E9C413668CFC9.jpg[/image]



Hubert Cater -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/15/2018 12:20:27 AM)

Thanks for the picture as this helps.

Normally you would simply need the two adjacent units to Tunis to slowly bring the strength of the city down by 1 point per turn in order to reduce supply to the French Corps. However since there is also a port at Tunis, this port can also provide supply to the French Corps as well.

Previous to this release you would need to bring a naval unit adjacent to the port to eliminate the port from providing supply (which is still an option in WaW), but as described above, a new addition for the WaW release is that if you also bring a land unit adjacent to that port, then the port will no longer provide supply.

The suggestion here is to bring at least one of those Italian ground units adjacent to that port, or an Italian naval unit adjacent to the port and the French Corps will quickly run out of supply and its ability to reinforce will degrade over time too.

Hope this helps,
Hubert



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/15/2018 4:00:46 AM)

Title of the thread should not be 'Supply issues break the game ', but rather should be 'Player doesn't understand Supply Rules' [;)]
And you say you've been playing since War in Europe? It certainly seems there is enough help with Supply Rules on that Forum, but I guess you have missed it all [:(]



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/15/2018 11:07:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Title of the thread should not be 'Supply issues break the game ', but rather should be 'Player doesn't understand Supply Rules' [;)]
And you say you've been playing since War in Europe? It certainly seems there is enough help with Supply Rules on that Forum, but I guess you have missed it all [:(]





or "I'm losing this game stinks" [:o]




Schokolokos -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/15/2018 11:38:06 AM)

xaxaxaxaxa...

Ok, dont be too harsh[;)]



steevodeevo -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/15/2018 12:33:25 PM)

Easy folks. The Supply rules have changed for this release, but in some ways are more straight forward, supply from an enemy port can be stopped with an adjacenr land unit. No longer needs a sea blockade. But it has changed, so let's be nice.



BillRunacre -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/15/2018 1:25:05 PM)

One thing that wasn't possible in War in Europe but is now possible in World at War is that Minor Capitals were originally exempt from losing strength points due to the presence of enemy units.

So a full on siege of a Minor Capital coupled with a naval blockade should ultimately make the objective fairly easy to take... providing your enemy lets you of course.



Numdydar -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/15/2018 1:52:55 PM)

Appreciate all the comments [:)] I love feedback lol.

My issue is not so much with the port rules (as I did miss that), but how can this corp replace 20-30K of manpower in Algeria in a month? And every month too! The answer is it could not. Even if the entire Italian Navy was in Port and all the aircraft was grounded.

I totally get that the way replacements in this game is a mechanic. And I can accept the way it works in about 70% of the time as it increases playability, etc. But whenever I see things like this that are beyond fantasy, I just don't want to play any more as the results are just too absurd for me.

Maybe this picture or the harbor at Tunis will help make it clear. No way that amount of manpower/equipment is going through that port in a month.



[image]local://upfiles/10981/59EC4A21640746EF9D2507DC9E5D43FD.jpg[/image]



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/15/2018 3:03:24 PM)

If you drive the city & port supply to zero it cannot reinforce in this game either. so...

[8|]



Numdydar -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/15/2018 5:29:45 PM)

Agree. But that is just a band aid for fixing the real issue of not being able to trace a supply path to a home city.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/15/2018 6:43:28 PM)

Reducing opponents supply isn't a band aid, its one of the core principals of the game. If the Tunis port has supply and there are mainland French ports with supply there is a supply line.

With all due respect its a marginal strategy (Italy=>Tunis when France in war) anyway. Once France goes Vichy you can easily take Tunis in one turn.



Numdydar -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/15/2018 8:08:41 PM)

But there are NO mainland ports which I mentioned before. Frances capital was moved to Algiers so the ONLY resources for France is from Algeria. And like I also said, it has been like this for THREE months.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/15/2018 8:47:22 PM)

So Algiers is the capital and they are connected by supplied ports.

Just take Strategic Bombers & Battleship's and drive supply in port & city to 0.

Whats the rules for not accepting Vichy (conquering Algiers) in WaW?



Numdydar -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/16/2018 1:04:16 AM)

If Algiers is captured, then France falls.

Sorry but all my Strat bombers are in the shop. Germany nor Italy do not start with any.

It is obvious you have never played as the Axis and tried this different path. The Italian Navy has to contend with both the British and French navies. So sending out ships to get damaged bombing a lv 10 port (as once the capital is transferred the Algiers port instantly becomes a lv10 something else I strongly disagree with) is not a wise move.

But now I know what the mechanic is, I will obviously use it. But it is still so far beyond any reality, I might as well be playing a science fiction game.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/16/2018 12:09:13 PM)

You sure you played the SC Europe?

The ONLY reason (my experience is in European game) people don't accept Vichy is to capture Algiers to get Spain to join the Axis and then take Gibraltar. In the European game experienced players almost never don't accept Vichy. Maybe its different here.

The problem is it gives the Allied an opportunity to set up defenses and control Oran & Casablanca ports so you need to do it quickly. The longer you are bogged down the stronger & better researched your opponents.

It is imperative you engage the overwhelming Axis airforce (Sardinia/Sicily w HQ's attached) to be successful in this strategy. Once you have deployed your airforce (w/Maritime Bombers) and bring some German subs you will control the seas East of Algiers. If you aren't buying Maritime bombers early you should, they are awesome. When the Allies commit to much Navy GB is wide open. It should only take a couple of turns to take Tunis


I will grant you with the smaller map the process seems much easier for Axis and agree that the Tunis port shouldn't be 10 str ( you graphic doesn't show port str).


enjoy the game.





EarlyDoors -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/16/2018 12:31:39 PM)

Thanks for the information in this thread.
My initial attempts have been playing as UK (and British India) only - love the isolation AI btw - and my East Africa campaign attempts to prise the Italians out of Eithiopia have been fruitless.
I'd put it down to the rubbish early war morale but it looks like I can tactically starve them of supply
Love the game btw!

Just need an extra life to find the time to play it



Hubert Cater -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/16/2018 1:17:00 PM)

Hi EarlyDoors,

Welcome aboard and glad to hear you are enjoying the game [:)]

Hubert



Hubert Cater -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/16/2018 1:22:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: steevodeevo

Easy folks. The Supply rules have changed for this release, but in some ways are more straight forward, supply from an enemy port can be stopped with an adjacenr land unit. No longer needs a sea blockade. But it has changed, so let's be nice.


Thanks Steve and agreed. Even for me Bill reminded me of a minor change to some of the rules where I had to correct one of my posts above to 2 units and not 3 adjacent units. In beta we started with 3 adjacent units to minor capitals where now it is a more simple to remember 2 adjacent units across the board for these types of situations.

There is a lot to remember and one objective we have for the future is to try and streamline and simplify as many of these rules as possible. Goal is always to have a logical set of rules that don't get overcomplicated at the same time.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/16/2018 1:32:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

Thanks for the information in this thread.
My initial attempts have been playing as UK (and British India) only - love the isolation AI btw - and my East Africa campaign attempts to prise the Italians out of Eithiopia have been fruitless.
I'd put it down to the rubbish early war morale but it looks like I can tactically starve them of supply
Love the game btw!

Just need an extra life to find the time to play it





Reducing port strength <5 will also prevent your opponents from moving in re reinforcements. Port supply needs to be at least 5 to move transports. Example: reduce Tobruk port supply <5 and your opponent will have to bring in reinforcements from Benghazi. Can make a big difference.


I've said this many times but easy game to start hard game to master (which I haven't).




EarlyDoors -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/16/2018 2:51:46 PM)

Great stuff, i've laid seige to Addis Ababa and the Town has no supply and the Italian Corps has dropped from 5 to 1 supply
However, when i move a destroyer adjacent to the port of Benghazi it does not reduce the supply which remains at 5.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/16/2018 4:25:33 PM)

ONE to BLOCK, TWO to physically REDUCE [;)]



sIg3b -> RE: Supply issues break the game (12/16/2018 8:07:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Thanks for the picture as this helps.

Normally you would simply need the two adjacent units to Tunis to slowly bring the strength of the city down by 1 point per turn in order to reduce supply to the French Corps. However since there is also a port at Tunis, this port can also provide supply to the French Corps as well.

Previous to this release you would need to bring a naval unit adjacent to the port to eliminate the port from providing supply (which is still an option in WaW), but as described above, a new addition for the WaW release is that if you also bring a land unit adjacent to that port, then the port will no longer provide supply.

The suggestion here is to bring at least one of those Italian ground units adjacent to that port, or an Italian naval unit adjacent to the port and the French Corps will quickly run out of supply and its ability to reinforce will degrade over time too.

Hope this helps,
Hubert


But, if Paris has fallen, as I assume happened here, to what does the port connect?

I think the issue here is that ports should not provide (much) supply at all when there is nothing overseas to get the supply from.



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