RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (Full Version)

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mussey -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/6/2019 10:51:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

On that Italian Army OOB (good find!), be wary of one thing. I tracked down the original document on the internet archive, and it did not include the bit about which equipment was in the units (18 M109G etc.) -- that was probably added by someone else from the well-known "NATO 1989 Order of Battle" document by Andy Johnson. 1984 and 1989 are not that distant from each other, but whoever added that should have noted where that information came from.

One may view the original Italian document at https://web.archive.org/web/20100316144141/http://www.radioradicale.it/exagora/lesercito-italiano-3-quello-che-i-russi-gia-sanno-e-gli-italiani-non-devono-sapere

Cheers


Thus far, my TO&E's for the Mech bde's include late Leopard I's, M-113 APC's, and M-109 sps. The Alpine units are towed. I can tweak these if needed. A jump from 1979 to 1984 is one thing, but to 1989 I need to be cautious.



cathar1244 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/6/2019 12:40:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

quote:

Each corps also had two MP battalions: 190, 191, 290, 291, 390, 391.


I have x1 now, is the other for the Lance SSM unit or is it a separate unit? Also, do you see any (reserve) Jager bns for the corps or divisions? Mid-1980's orbats have them, not sure if appropriate for 1979.


The security battalions for the Lance SSM units were not MPs, they were light infantry; probably just rifles and machine guns. But you could leave the MP battalions at one per corps on the assumption that a bunch of the MPs would have other missions not seen in the game.

I haven't seen reserve Jaeger units for the 1970s other than the six I found regarding the Territorial Army. There was apparently an expansion of the reserves in the 1980s.

Cheers



cathar1244 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/6/2019 12:58:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey


quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

On that Italian Army OOB (good find!), be wary of one thing. I tracked down the original document on the internet archive, and it did not include the bit about which equipment was in the units (18 M109G etc.) -- that was probably added by someone else from the well-known "NATO 1989 Order of Battle" document by Andy Johnson. 1984 and 1989 are not that distant from each other, but whoever added that should have noted where that information came from.

One may view the original Italian document at https://web.archive.org/web/20100316144141/http://www.radioradicale.it/exagora/lesercito-italiano-3-quello-che-i-russi-gia-sanno-e-gli-italiani-non-devono-sapere

Cheers


Thus far, my TO&E's for the Mech bde's include late Leopard I's, M-113 APC's, and M-109 sps. The Alpine units are towed. I can tweak these if needed. A jump from 1979 to 1984 is one thing, but to 1989 I need to be cautious.


In 1979 and early 1980s, Italy had about 900 Leopard 1, 300 M60A1, and 500-600 M47 tanks. The M60A1 tanks were in the Ariete Division. The M47's were used in the tank battalions of the mechanized and motorised brigades. Tank battalions had a strength of 49 tanks. I have some other org data to post, some details on certain units. Italy also had 28 Leopard-based armored engineering vehicles. The M109s (early model, no A1s) are correct.

Cheers



MikeJ19 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/6/2019 7:24:22 PM)

Hi Guys,

A play test sounds great and lots of fun. Please count me in.

As for the supply issue, I think a big initial boost for a week to 10 days makes sense - then it can be down scaled - maybe by events.

This stuff looks awesome.




cathar1244 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/7/2019 9:39:09 AM)

Keegan1979 comments on Italian forces.

quote:

The organisation of the armoured divisions Ariete and Centauro is: one armoured reconnaissance battalion, one engineer battalion, one aviation flight, one artillery brigade (of three battalions of M109s, one battalion of M107s and one HAWK battalion), one signals battalion, and two armoured and one mechanised brigades; the armoured brigades each consist of a signals company, an engineer company, logistics troops, two tank battalions and a mechanised infantry battalion; the mechanised brigade consists of two [mech infantry] battalions, one tank battalion and the same support troops. The independent armoured brigade Pozzuolo del Friuli, which provides the tactical reserve to V Corps, is similar in organisation to the divisional armoured brigades but its three battalions, each of three companies, are equipped with a mixture of Leopard tanks and APCs.

The infantry divisions Cremona, Legnano, Folgore, Mantova and Granatieri di Sardegna consist of one reconnaissance battalion, one engineer battalion, one signal battalion, one artillery regiment (of two battalions of 105mm howitzers, one battalion of 155mm howitzers and one light anti-aircraft battalion), one aviation flight, one mechanised regiment (of one tank battalion and one APC battalion with an anti-tank company), and two infantry regiments (each of three battalions and one company of 120mm mortars; one of the battalions in each regiment is to be motorised).


... more to come

Cheers



cathar1244 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/7/2019 10:45:23 AM)

... Italian forces

quote:

The Alpine brigades Taurinese, Orobica, Tridentina, Cadore, and Julia consist of one signals company, one engineer company, one aviation flight, one parachute platoon, one mountain artillery regiment (of three battalions of 105mm howitzers and one battalion of 155mm howitzers) and a mountain infantry regiment (of three to four battalions, together with an APC company); all of the troops of the brigade are mountain-trained and the supply columns contain mules.

The parachute brigade Folgore consist of one signals company, one engineer company, one aviation flight, one artillery battalion (of 18 105mm howitzers) and a parachute infantry regiment of two battalions (plus a Carabinieri battalion); all units are parachutable or air-portable.

The amphibious brigade consists of one signal company, one tank battalion, and two or three APC battalions, together with its amphibious transport (which is not sufficient to carry all its vehicles).

The missile brigade deploys two Honest John missile battalions (now obsolescent and to be replaced by LANCE and two M-55 203mm howitzer battalions), all capable of firing nuclear warheads; it also has an infantry battalion for local protection.

The organization of the corps troops varies; in general each corps should dispose of one reconnaissance battalion, one tank battalion, one or two engineer battalions, several battalions of heavy artillery, one or more HAWK battalions, and signal and logistic troops, together with an aviation squadron of 10 - 18 helicopters.

The air force shares the air defence role with the army and deploys 12 air-defence groups with 96 Nike Hercules SAMs.

The navy has a small marine force: the San Marco Regiment (1700 strong), and a commando and frogman group; two landing ships with 57 landing craft provide the sea lift for this force.


... more to come

Cheers



cathar1244 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/7/2019 10:57:45 AM)

... Italian equipment 1979

Mortars: 81mm and 120mm

Anti-armour weapons: 3.5" Bazooka, M40 106mm recoilless rifle, COBRA wire-guided missile, Mosquito wire-guided missile, and SS 11 wire-guided missile.

Air defence: HAWK missile and Bofors 40/60 and 40/70 40mm guns (on edit: scratched mention of Indigo missile; this was developed in the 1960s and 1970s, but apparently never fielded and the project dropped out in 1980)

Artillery: 105/14 Model 56 pack howitzer (FA battalions of the infantry, alpine and parachute formations); M-109 155mm SP howitzer (artillery of the armoured formations); M-59 155mm gun (medium battalions of the infantry formations); M-107 175mm gun (gun battalions of the corps artillery); M-55 203mm howitzers (gun battalions of the corps artillery and the missile brigade). (About 1500 artillery pieces of all calibres in service.)

Missile: LANCE (missile battalions of the missile brigade).

Armoured vehicle: M-113 APC (armoured infantry battalions of the army and the Carabinieri; about 3600 in service).

Helicopters: Light helos in brigade, division, and corps detachments (Bell AB47 etc., about 230) and 26 CH-47 Chinook for the corps aviation squadrons.

Interesting comment on role:

quote:

The army's third problem concerns its role. Though committed en bloc to NATO, and forming the largest component of its southern flank forces, the Italian army confronts no Warsaw Pact force, and lacks the mobility to operate en masse outside its own territory.


Cheers



mussey -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/7/2019 11:34:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19

Hi Guys,

A play test sounds great and lots of fun. Please count me in.

As for the supply issue, I think a big initial boost for a week to 10 days makes sense - then it can be down scaled - maybe by events.

This stuff looks awesome.




Excellent Mike, you're in. If you know anyone else that may be interested, or for anyone else reading this that wants to join, let me know. Supply, weather, events will be done when the orbats are complete. Hopefully soonly-ish...



mussey -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/7/2019 11:45:09 PM)

quote:

The infantry divisions Cremona, Legnano, Folgore, Mantova and Granatieri di Sardegna consist of one reconnaissance battalion, one engineer battalion, one signal battalion, one artillery regiment (of two battalions of 105mm howitzers, one battalion of 155mm howitzers and one light anti-aircraft battalion), one aviation flight, one mechanised regiment (of one tank battalion and one APC battalion with an anti-tank company), and two infantry regiments (each of three battalions and one company of 120mm mortars; one of the battalions in each regiment is to be motorised).


So one of the 3 is motorized, the other two are foot... This is interesting. Looks like some corrections are in order. I will circle back to this.

On another note, there are several US APC's in the equip editor next to each other: one is a regular M-113 APC, below it is a AIFV with considerably more strength. Do you have any knowledge of this, how/if it should be used?

And yet, if this total is correct, there is ample amount to equip all infantry/motorized units:
"Armoured vehicle: M-113 APC (armoured infantry battalions of the army and the Carabinieri; about 3600 in service)."



mussey -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/7/2019 11:56:15 PM)

quote:

Air defence: HAWK missile and Bofors 40/60 and 40/70 40mm guns


Cathar, what do you mean by 40/60 and 40/70?



cathar1244 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/8/2019 5:37:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

quote:

Air defence: HAWK missile and Bofors 40/60 and 40/70 40mm guns


Cathar, what do you mean by 40/60 and 40/70?


40/60 was the original Bofors 40mm AA gun. The /70 was introduced in 1948; longer barrel, higher rate of fire, and higher muzzle velocity. It is not in the standard equipment file. If you want to model it, use this definition:

<NAME>40mm L70 AA Gun</NAME>
<COUNTRY>Sweden - 1948</COUNTRY>
<EQUIP1>15</EQUIP1>
<EQUIP2>173</EQUIP2>
<AT>5</AT>
<AP>375</AP>
<AA>7</AA>
<DF>1</DF>
<ARTY_RNG>0</ARTY_RNG>
<EARLY_RNG>0</EARLY_RNG>
<SAM_RNG>0</SAM_RNG>
<NUKE>0</NUKE>
<VOL>0</VOL>
<WEIGHT>0</WEIGHT>
<SHELL_W>0</SHELL_W>
<ARMOR>0</ARMOR>
<DEFENDER>0</DEFENDER>
<FLAG0>16</FLAG0>
<FLAG1>0</FLAG1>
<FLAG2>0</FLAG2>
<FLAG3>0</FLAG3>
<FLAG4>16</FLAG4>
<FLAG5>0</FLAG5>
<FLAG6>0</FLAG6>
<FLAG7>0</FLAG7>


Cheers



cathar1244 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/8/2019 6:06:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

quote:

The infantry divisions Cremona, Legnano, Folgore, Mantova and Granatieri di Sardegna consist of one reconnaissance battalion, one engineer battalion, one signal battalion, one artillery regiment (of two battalions of 105mm howitzers, one battalion of 155mm howitzers and one light anti-aircraft battalion), one aviation flight, one mechanised regiment (of one tank battalion and one APC battalion with an anti-tank company), and two infantry regiments (each of three battalions and one company of 120mm mortars; one of the battalions in each regiment is to be motorised).


So one of the 3 is motorized, the other two are foot... This is interesting. Looks like some corrections are in order. I will circle back to this.

On another note, there are several US APC's in the equip editor next to each other: one is a regular M-113 APC, below it is a AIFV with considerably more strength. Do you have any knowledge of this, how/if it should be used?

And yet, if this total is correct, there is ample amount to equip all infantry/motorized units:
"Armoured vehicle: M-113 APC (armoured infantry battalions of the army and the Carabinieri; about 3600 in service)."


My guess is the AIFV next to the M113 you mention is the XM765. This was one of the alternatives developed when the USA looked for their infantry fighting vehicle (M2 Bradley beat the XM765).

Dutch units, on the other hand, should have this AIFV, they adopted an improved M113 with 25mm cannon in the early 1970s and called it the YPR-765. (The YPR-765 is in the equipment database, too).

As for Italy, they adopted an improved M113 in 1982 called the VCC-1. This is actually in the equipment database but the DB gets the date wrong and calls it "IAFV IFV". But this scenario is too early for the VCC-1.

Cheers



mussey -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/10/2019 11:35:24 AM)

quote:

The standard squad AT rocket launcher was the 89mm LRAC. Penetration rating is 40cm. You may wish to create this entry if you're using a modified equipment file; the standard "AT+" rating is very weak compared to even Cold War AT rocket performance.

<NAME>Famas AT+ Squad</NAME>
<COUNTRY>France - 1970's</COUNTRY>
<EQUIP1>1</EQUIP1>
<EQUIP2>176</EQUIP2>
<AT>40</AT>
<AP>56</AP>
<AA>1</AA>
<DF>10</DF>
<ARTY_RNG>0</ARTY_RNG>
<EARLY_RNG>0</EARLY_RNG>
<SAM_RNG>0</SAM_RNG>
<NUKE>0</NUKE>
<VOL>999</VOL>
<WEIGHT>0</WEIGHT>
<SHELL_W>0</SHELL_W>
<ARMOR>1</ARMOR>
<DEFENDER>1</DEFENDER>
<FLAG0>4</FLAG0>
<FLAG1>2</FLAG1>
<FLAG2>0</FLAG2>
<FLAG3>0</FLAG3>
<FLAG4>0</FLAG4>
<FLAG5>1</FLAG5>
<FLAG6>32</FLAG6>
<FLAG7>8</FLAG7>


Cathar, after seeing your other recent post, I am ready to do this. However, is it possible to create one generic squad for both forces? My intention (if Plausible) is to alter the Assault AT+ Squad that all forces/nations can use for the 1979 period, and not ready to create a different squad for each nation. Hopefully the differences between them will not be so vast?



mussey -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/10/2019 12:05:20 PM)

Here are the major naval units that are possibly deployable to the North Atlantic. (Previously posted, there are x7 CV's in the Atlantic. Of these x4 are on east coast, x1 is in re-fit, x2 Med. Sea.)

Here are some assumptions (the first two are from several sources, the last one is mine):
- At least x1 CV TF on US coast can be dispatched immediately, to arrive in Europe/Med. Sea in 4-5 days.
- Another CV TF can be dispatched 3-5 days later.
- Assume 1 or 2 CV's are escorting sea reinforcements? (Attach to latest GT of land unit reinforcement.)

Using this, I have Nimitz arriving to England on GT 3 (escorting x1 Marine bde), closely followed by Independence on GT 4 (escorting the remainder of 2nd Mar Div). The other two CV's Saratoga and Forrestal are assumed to be doing escort duty for US land reinforcements that will be arriving up to GT 16, and once completed will arrive in England GT 16 or later depending on results of the Battle of the Atlantic.

As you will see in some future posts, it is the timing of all US reinforcements that is the most difficult to calculate for this game. Many assumptions need to be made.

[image]local://upfiles/23116/50AEB7BF3F7449EBBA590DC796A5EE30.jpg[/image]



cathar1244 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/10/2019 12:07:59 PM)

quote:

Cathar, after seeing your other recent post, I am ready to do this. However, is it possible to create one generic squad for both forces? My intention (if Plausible) is to alter the Assault AT+ Squad that all forces/nations can use for the 1979 period, and not ready to create a different squad for each nation. Hopefully the differences between them will not be so vast?


Mussey, here are some of the common infantry AT rockets of 1979 and their performance; as designer you'll have to judge if a common unit will be fit to purpose. My guess is the answer to your question is "yes" if one is willing to fudge a bit; and I suspect that all of the other combat influences in the scenario will tend to even out any distortion caused by using a single upgraded Assault Rifle squad. Here they are, followed by suggested TOAW AT rating:

U.S. 66mm LAW ... 30
RPG-7 ... 32
RPG-16 ... 30
RPG-75 ... 33
LRAC89 ... 40
Panzerfaust 44 ... 37 (West German 1960s, not the 1944 version)
RL-83 Blindicide ... 30

Dunno, maybe a generic AT value of 35? (On edit: average is 33)

Cheers



mussey -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/10/2019 2:40:51 PM)

quote:

Dunno, maybe a generic AT value of 35? (On edit: average is 33)


Excellent, that's what I'm looking for. Previously, I mistakenly assumed that the Squads + were already up to modern equipment standards. Though not perfect, this gives infantry more accurate punch via-a-vis armor. Thanks.



mussey -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/10/2019 2:52:42 PM)

This chart simplifies how U.S. reinforcements deploy to Europe. Many units need to run the gauntlet of the Battle of the Atlantic that can delay re-entry, while two Carrier TF's avert this. Notice the odds of this, which were calculated from the original board game. If needed, we can change the percentages % if anyone has any insight on this. What are the odds of Soviet success?



[image]local://upfiles/23116/6A1CF3ED9D4B4E95AA1E422986C9C290.jpg[/image]



cathar1244 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/10/2019 3:23:15 PM)

This is a brief look at the Atlantic situation. Sounds like the big threat to carrier groups would have been from Backfire strikes.

https://warisboring.com/how-the-soviet-navy-would-have-fought-world-war-iii/

Cheers



Lobster -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/10/2019 5:28:33 PM)

Too bad TOAW cannot properly portray a modern naval conflict. It is geared more towards WW2 for obvious reasons and even then the submarines are still not portrayed accurately. Heck, it even has problems with modern land warfare. [;)]



cathar1244 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/10/2019 5:44:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Too bad TOAW cannot properly portray a modern naval conflict. It is geared more towards WW2 for obvious reasons and even then the submarines are still not portrayed accurately. Heck, it even has problems with modern land warfare. [;)]


Probably events are the way to go to depict the Battle of the Atlantic.

For all the various issues that are raised with TOAW, I'd guess we're fortunate to still have it being updated 20 years on. I'm not sure, but I don't think any other software firms have attempted this kind of "wargame construction kit" for a while now.

Cheers




mussey -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/10/2019 7:41:40 PM)

quote:

Too bad TOAW cannot properly portray a modern naval conflict.


For continental warfare, which is mostly landwar, I can live with this. (For now).

It will be interesting to see how this scenario plays out in the Norwegian Sea, and Baltic/Skaggerak straights. The Soviets need to control or at least deny access to NATO naval if they choose to ampib assault along these coasts.



boxof9 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/11/2019 5:39:17 AM)

Mr. Mussey you may find this interesting.

https://www.compassgames.com/military-simulations/brezhnev-s-war-nato-vs-the-warsaw-pact-in-germany-1980.html



cathar1244 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/11/2019 7:57:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

quote:

Dunno, maybe a generic AT value of 35? (On edit: average is 33)


Excellent, that's what I'm looking for. Previously, I mistakenly assumed that the Squads + were already up to modern equipment standards. Though not perfect, this gives infantry more accurate punch via-a-vis armor. Thanks.


Have you looked at the U.S. Berlin Brigade? Pretty sure they would not have had almost 80 SP M901 TOW ATGM carriers. One thing they should have is 90mm recoilless rifles. They had those because ATGMs were only somewhat useful in the urban warfare environment. This is a typical comment found on the internet.

quote:

Also, there are numerous reports that the Dragon was replaced (or supplemented) by the 90mm RR at squad level. In addition, it appears as though each battalion had a unit of M113s (of undetermined number), and at least some M125s. At least several individuals have posted on Tank-Net that the Brigade units were significantly overstrength.


(On the M901's: Apparently first produced in 1979 [Source: Zaloga]. One quote I saw for length of production and vehicles completed indicates an average production capacity of 10 vehicles a week. So, by mid-1979, there may have been some 200 examples of this kind of vehicle in service. [According to Janes, there were some 1100 examples in U.S. Army Europe at some point in 1981.] Note the predecessor vehicle was what the database calls the M150, equipment #1019.)

BTW, re: HAWK missiles, the Wiki article on that missile says that the U.S. Army had completed migration to I-HAWK by 1978.

Cheers



mussey -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/19/2019 11:19:12 AM)

OK. I conducted a short 3-turn dry run and units are deploying where they should. I noticed some orbat inconsistencies that needed correction, and finally completed the Norwegian and Danish armies. On Cathar's introduction of Keegan's 1979 World Armies, I purchased a copy ($10!) and used it to go through orbats that were not already covered. We were pretty close on most. Soonly, I will conduct another test for the entire game period to ensure deployments.

For the air war, I left all units to their own orders and the Soviets were slaughtered. I will need to change this, but not decided on how/what. I might reduce unit ranges and have more targeted hexes closer to home. (Soviets were bombing England, not sure they would want to do this at this stage?)



cathar1244 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/19/2019 1:08:39 PM)

You got Keegan's work for a great price. Although it gets some things wrong, it is considered a very solid reference.

You're probably right about reining in the aircraft ranges. Only Soviet strategic air should be hitting the UK initially. Frontal aviation would have concentrated on the air war above the ground fighting.

What version of TOAW IV are you running? I'd like to look at the scenario, but I'm on the old TOAW IV version that doesn't support the massive new scenario files.

Cheers



cathar1244 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/20/2019 10:29:49 AM)

quote:

the Soviets were slaughtered.


Not sure if this is the same in your mod, but the original version of this scenario has Allied air units set at 90% proficiency and the Soviets at 75%.

Not sure if I'm comfortable with that. The Soviets certainly trained hard. Yes, our air crew were superb. But were the Soviets that far behind? Perhaps I'm all washed up with these thoughts.

At any rate, if that proficiency gap still exists in the scenario, it is contributing to their defeat in the air.

Cheers



mussey -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/20/2019 1:37:57 PM)

quote:

What version of TOAW IV are you running? I'd like to look at the scenario, but I'm on the old TOAW IV version that doesn't support the massive new scenario files.


V4.1.0.4

For front line air units: Soviets 72%, NSWP 70%, many NATO 85% or less. This seems about right (?).

Edit: Maybe I should get info on training hours to better reflect this...?



cathar1244 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/20/2019 1:43:59 PM)

Thanks, I'm still on the Nov 2017 version. I wish that your version had been the download version when I purchased the software three months ago.

Cheers



cathar1244 -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/20/2019 1:50:58 PM)

Mussey,

Could you do a scenario dump from the scenario editor and post the file here? That would allow me to take a look at it even if I can't upload it to TOAW.

Cheers



mussey -> RE: expanded The Next War 1979 (2/26/2019 11:48:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Mussey,

Could you do a scenario dump from the scenario editor and post the file here? That would allow me to take a look at it even if I can't upload it to TOAW.

Cheers



Sorry for the delay. Here it is.



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