Historical Help, Please (Full Version)

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Wild Bill -> Historical Help, Please (6/16/2003 9:59:23 PM)

I know we have some real WW2 history buffs here in our group.

In late 1944 and even early into 1945 General Eisenhower had plans to drop the 101st and the 82nd into Berlin once his forces had fought their way near to the German capital.

I need information on this proposed drop, the name of it, and any other information about it. If any of you top notch amateur historians can help me here, I would appreciate it very much.

Wild Bill



Egg_Shen -> (6/17/2003 12:44:56 AM)

I can Halp yu.....:confused:



Wild Bill -> (6/17/2003 12:58:35 AM)

Good deal, Egg-Shen. How did you get that nail in your...never mind.

Do you have the information written anywhere so you could send it to me? How can I get this info from you?

Here is my e-mail address.

Anything you have will help. Thanks in advance....

[email]bwilder@bellsouth.net[/email]



Paratrooper -> (6/17/2003 4:03:50 AM)

hmmm, 82nd and 101st weren't released from the Market-Garden Operation up until around the first of December, Monty kept them on as regular infantry divisions. The British 6th Airborne was pretty much decimated in that operation as well.

After Monty released them, the 82nd and 101st had a very short rest and refit before being hurled into the Battle of the Bulge. And at the very beginning they had to endure hardships as they had to travel in open top trucks/trailers to get to their objectives, this when its was pretty cold in Belguim. The 82nd fought hard, but it was the 101st that had the hardest fight in the encirlced road center of Bastogne. Of course you all know that story.

IIRC the 82nd and 101st weren't pulled out of the frontline until February. And then following another short R&R period they were again thrown into the pursuit of the beaten Germans in late March/early April until the end of the war in Europe.

The last major air assault in Europe was Operation Varsity undertaken by the reborn UK 6th Airborne (?) and the US 17th Airborne divisions across the Rhine. But that was pretty much anti-climatic since Patton had crossed the Rhine a week earlier (Remagen?).

I've never heard of any proposed plan by Eisenhower to use the 82nd and 101st to drop in on Berlin and link up with ground forces (Patton? since Monty dropped the ball at Arnhem). I can't imagine it got any further than just being a plan on paper given the relative 'beat-up' condition of the 82nd and 101st after Market-Garden and the Bulge.

Can't wait to see your 'what-if' scenario/campaign though. Please let us know when its ready. :)



Voriax -> (6/17/2003 4:39:34 AM)

WB, the operation was named 'Operation Eclipse'
there is a bunch of scattered web info around, but nothing very particular. Or at least I haven't found it...
It also means a plan for occupation of Germany just after the war so you get two kinds of documents...

Voriax



Wild Bill -> (6/17/2003 7:59:23 AM)

From all the sources I have gleaned today, it was a formally designed operation. The Bulge threw a monkey wrench in the works. The 82nd was actually doing field exercises when called to the St Vith area to fend off the German onslaught.

The title Eclipse was first used for the Berlin assault operation and then used for the partitioning of Berlin. It still related to Berlin but in a different light.

And some of the hypotheticals will be surprising...Should be interesting...WB



Paratrooper -> (6/17/2003 8:44:42 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wild Bill
[B]From all the sources I have gleaned today, it was a formally designed operation. The Bulge threw a monkey wrench in the works. The 82nd was actually doing field exercises when called to the St Vith area to fend off the German onslaught.[/B][/QUOTE]

Fascinating. I guess for the purpose of your 'what-if' scenario/campaign (are you making one?) you could suppose that the Bulge was launched in Hungry instead of Belguim (as Guderian wanted) and that the Yalta Conference fixed the division of Europe on the Oder instead of the Elbe. Just an idea. :)



Von Rom -> (6/17/2003 11:04:25 PM)

Here's what i could find on this military operation.

Operation Eclipse


Operation Eclipse was an audacious plan for a parachute assault by more than two airborne divisions in an effort to capture Berlin ahead of the Russians. The plan called for the 82nd to seize the airfields at Tempelhof and Rangdor while the 101st would capture two others. The plan was the brainchild of Lewis Brereton's First Allied Army Airborne staff.

Winston Churchill and Field Marshall Montogomery were avid supporters of the plan while General Eisenhower didn't see it's "military" significance. Regardless, the 82nd conducted dress rehearsals. As it happened, the mission was never executed in favor of Gen. Bradley's moving eastward allowing the Soviets to take Berlin.

On March 30, 1945, the 82nd already regrouped in Sissone, France in preparation for the cancelled operation, received orders to move to the area of Bonn, Germany and the Rhine River.



Paratrooper -> (6/20/2003 8:11:22 AM)

I'm beginning to think it was feasible that the US could have really captured Berlin had political promises not already been made giving the honor to the Soviets. I found this: (keep the two airborne divisions in mind. ;) )

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x22/xr2272.html

quote:

2. The Drive to the Elbe

Advance elements of Simpson's Ninth Army reached the Elbe far to the east on April 11th; two days later, they secured a beachhead on the east bank only 50 miles from Berlin. Simpson's plea to be allowed to drive toward the German capital was rejected by Eisenhower who had already assured Stalin on March 28th that the Anglo - American forces would bypass Berlin. There was a military question whether Simpson's spearhead units, running short on fuel, could really reach the city before the Soviets arrived in force. In any case, Eisenhower considered Berlin an objective of secondary military importance whose political fate-inclusion in the Soviet occupation zone-had already been decided at the Yalta Conference in February.



Wild Bill -> (6/20/2003 8:17:07 AM)

Ah, my point precisely. The road was much more open in the west of Germany than the east. That coupled with the fact that the Germans much preferred to surrender to western powers and even fled Berlin looking for them in order to surrender would indicate that it might have been somewhat easier than one might think. Not easy!

But maybe more of a willingness to capitulate. The Germans knew they were going to die slowly or quickly at the hands of the Russian invaders. There was a glimmer of hope in the west.

WB



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