Capturing and calculating production (Full Version)

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Zug -> Capturing and calculating production (12/21/2018 12:41:16 PM)

When capturing an enemy city that has not evacuated it's factories, how can I determine the actual production denied to him?

For example if I take a city that shows a T-34 50, what does that translate to in terms of weekly production (is it 50 tanks per week?)? Does the same formula apply to all types? What about manpower?

When you take a city with factories still present, do you capture all of it? Is some considered to have escaped?

Some cities have a generic 'vehicle' listed. How is this used?

Once all rail paths have been cut to a city is it no longer possible for the enemy to evacuate production? When surrounded, does existing production in the besieged city still work at full capacity and all goes in to the national pool?



Chris21wen -> RE: Capturing and calculating production (12/21/2018 1:17:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zug

When capturing an enemy city that has not evacuated it's factories, how can I determine the actual production denied to him?

For example if I take a city that shows a T-34 50, what does that translate to in terms of weekly production (is it 50 tanks per week?)? Does the same formula apply to all types? What about manpower?

When you take a city with factories still present, do you capture all of it? Is some considered to have escaped?

Some cities have a generic 'vehicle' listed. How is this used?

Once all rail paths have been cut to a city is it no longer possible for the enemy to evacuate production? When surrounded, does existing production in the besieged city still work at full capacity and all goes in to the national pool?



Factories that produce any form of equipment are permanently destroyed when captured, that all in the hex. The effects on other types, manpower, rail, port resources and oil are affected in various way as stated in the updated manual section 21.2.

No factory automatically evacutes but manpower will migrate. Section 21.1.9.2

Generic vehicle go to the vehicle pool.

Isolated cities produce but because they are not connected to the railnet nothing goes to the relevant pools. The one exception is manpower which has a separate pool for the location. Section 21.2.9.4.

Also worth reading is section 20.5.1. Manpower Starvation Damage.



Zug -> RE: Capturing and calculating production (12/21/2018 3:24:30 PM)

Thanks, I read the relevant sections. That's your work?

In my current grand campaign I took Gorky a few turns ago. It was jammed with production. There were at least five tank factories, and together with an adjacent small town, three fighter factories (La-5), plus numerous other facilities (armored cars, vehicles, etc)

I wanted to calculate the effect this had, how much it hurt the enemy. So if I understand what I read, the AFV points are one to one? So if I captured 230 AFV factory points, I have cut the enemy's AFV production by 230 per turn, correct?

The 'local production' is interesting too, as I find that oftentimes I bypass certain cities (Moscow, Ivanovo and Yarolslavl to name just a few in this campaign), while leaving behind an infantry corps to reduce it over time. I was curious if this method was allowing those bypassed cities to continue contributing to the enemy replacement pools. If I understand it, this local production will only benefit the enemy if they retake that town. Does local production replenish the besieged defenders? For example if I bypass a city that has an armor corps, and the city has a T-34 factory, will that factory replenish losses of the garrison?



A21 -> RE: Capturing and calculating production (12/21/2018 3:50:15 PM)

As I understand it yes if you capture a 50 point tank factory that means they are not going to be making 50 tanks a turn anymore. If the factory was still expanding indeed the tanks it will not be making in future are even greater in number.



Chris21wen -> RE: Capturing and calculating production (12/22/2018 1:44:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zug

Thanks, I read the relevant sections. That's your work?

In my current grand campaign I took Gorky a few turns ago. It was jammed with production. There were at least five tank factories, and together with an adjacent small town, three fighter factories (La-5), plus numerous other facilities (armored cars, vehicles, etc)

I wanted to calculate the effect this had, how much it hurt the enemy. So if I understand what I read, the AFV points are one to one? So if I captured 230 AFV factory points, I have cut the enemy's AFV production by 230 per turn, correct?

The 'local production' is interesting too, as I find that oftentimes I bypass certain cities (Moscow, Ivanovo and Yarolslavl to name just a few in this campaign), while leaving behind an infantry corps to reduce it over time. I was curious if this method was allowing those bypassed cities to continue contributing to the enemy replacement pools. If I understand it, this local production will only benefit the enemy if they retake that town. Does local production replenish the besieged defenders? For example if I bypass a city that has an armor corps, and the city has a T-34 factory, will that factory replenish losses of the garrison?


Yes it's one for one. For factory manpower, 1 factory point represents 50000 people and with a portion of the manpower will migrate as it will when isolated.

The only local pool is manpower. For everything else it just stops producing, starting again when it's next connected to the railnet. I think the premiss is there are no resources getting to the location, hence the factories can't produce. But again manpower may migrate which will reduce the number of functional factories.



thedoctorking -> RE: Capturing and calculating production (12/22/2018 4:12:43 PM)

Yes, it's true that captured factories are immediately and irrevocably destroyed.

I've always argued that simply destroying the captured factories is not historical and encourages odd behaviors like raiding deep into enemy territory to capture a city for one turn. Captured factories should be damaged but repairable. In fact, the Germans repaired the T-34 tank factory they captured in Kharkov and used it to repair damaged tanks. Maybe captured factories could produce armament points until recaptured.



Zug -> RE: Capturing and calculating production (12/23/2018 2:04:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking


I've always argued that simply destroying the captured factories is not historical and encourages odd behaviors like raiding deep into enemy territory to capture a city for one turn.



I agree. I'm only on my second campaign against the AI, and I've done this a number of times. If I see a city that retains it's factories, and it's reasonably within reach, I make a lunge. 150 mile, armor-only, unsupported thrusts to capture that production. In each case that narrow corridor is kept open, so it's not only for a turn, infantry follows up to shore up the shoulders and expand the corridor. But this is a thing I could only do against AI, it would be punished against any competent human player. The AI seems content to just place a ring around any of these sorts of deep penetrations, instead of aggressively sealing it off, allowing the time needed to reinforce it. But the fact I can destroy this production, which has a significant tangible effect on the enemy, encourages me to make these risky moves. I know that if I push forward more slowly on a broader front, the AI will get it out before I can reach it.

Capturing production at Moscow, or Kharkov or Gorky or a number of other important production centers hurts the enemy so much it's worth the effort (and these sorts of operations are fun too [:)]


quote:

If the factory was still expanding indeed the tanks it will not be making in future are even greater in number.


Good point. And I suppose not only the potential increase in numbers, but whatever new tech it may have switched to in the future. Factories upgrade the type of weapon they are producing over time correct? Is there a resource that shows a schedule or upgrade path for factories? For example what does a BT-7 factory produce when that production stops? I just captured a number of factories building U-2 and other recon and bomber types in the Kazan region. I was curious if these U-2 factories would have switched to a newer type. I know the U-2 was produced forever and long past the end of the war, so maybe that's all these factories will ever build? A schedule would be interesting to see. In the manual perhaps?




A21 -> RE: Capturing and calculating production (12/23/2018 3:03:13 PM)

There was another post in this forum earlier that explained if you open the scenario as a Soviet player just to see its turn 1, you can see all the factory details. Go to the production screen and click on one of the items being produced to see which factories produce them, and what they upgrade to. The U2 does indeed stay as that until 1945, but some other factories do change to newer models of equipment.



thedoctorking -> RE: Capturing and calculating production (12/23/2018 8:01:14 PM)

As a Soviet player, I always leave at least one division in every production center that is anywhere close to the enemy. That way, a lone German armored division can't just wander in. And armor attacking cities are nerfed anyway if I understand correctly.

But it is silly that once you kick them out again, you can't repair the factory.



therealevan -> RE: Capturing and calculating production (12/24/2018 12:42:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

As a Soviet player, I always leave at least one division in every production center that is anywhere close to the enemy. That way, a lone German armored division can't just wander in. And armor attacking cities are nerfed anyway if I understand correctly.

But it is silly that once you kick them out again, you can't repair the factory.


For the sake of the rules, are motorised units attacking in city also nerfed? (I apologize for the small thread hijack)



thedoctorking -> RE: Capturing and calculating production (12/24/2018 1:49:20 AM)

As far as I know, yes. Motorized infantry are treated as motorized units and get an advantage fighting in the open and a disadvantage fighting in cities. I'm not sure the exact numbers, but this apparently explains the many unsuccessful attacks we had in the early stages of Connect 4.



therealevan -> RE: Capturing and calculating production (12/24/2018 3:18:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

As far as I know, yes. Motorized infantry are treated as motorized units and get an advantage fighting in the open and a disadvantage fighting in cities. I'm not sure the exact numbers, but this apparently explains the many unsuccessful attacks we had in the early stages of Connect 4.


This is good information for me, thank you. I'll keep it in mind. One can assume it's always a bad idea to move tanks into a city, wasn't entirely sure about motorized. This clears it up.



Chris21wen -> RE: Capturing and calculating production (12/24/2018 2:20:02 PM)

If your playing the AI you should alway control your more adventurous play, such as taking cities in the way ZUG suggested. The AI is incapable of combatting such play.

The problem with any historical game is you know what and when, again if you play the AI you have to pretend you do not. Against a human player and as you both know that each other knows you can either do what thedoctorking said or come to some aggreement not to carry out such ahistorical activity.



Zug -> RE: Capturing and calculating production (12/24/2018 4:11:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

If your playing the AI you should alway control your more adventurous play, such as taking cities in the way ZUG suggested. The AI is incapable of combatting such play.




That's a fair point, and I think the sort of house rule that's good to use once you've crushed the AI once or twice. Or to bump up the settings to give the AI a boost, and then perhaps it would punish these sorts of lunges more regularly.

The first grand campaign I played was 260-point and with FoW off. I used these sorts of operations several times, once I realized they were possible. It resulted in Kiev falling on turn 3 and Moscow on turn 7 for example (along with the production), and was possible only because the AI didn't properly defend those cities, nor did it aggressively attempt to seal the thrusts off, as it was more interested in escaping encirclement, or so it appeared. That campaign ended in June '42 and could have ended in 1941 if I had played better. I had botched the AGC rail line, and partisans later cut it as well, slowing down the advance in the center and I went in to the blizzards sitting on 255 points. So it could have be over by then with better play. It's 'exploiting' the AI, but then again, that's a goal of operations, to exploit the enemy where he is weak. House rules are good when it's no longer fun to beat the AI so easily. That hasn't happened for me yet [:)]

The second one is 290-point, with FoW on. I feel I've played better, but so has the AI. The AI was able to evacuate Moscow which is a big difference, but still we captured a good deal of production through the campaign. Despite that, the only thing I feel we've really hurt him with is manpower. All of the tank and aircraft factories we've taken hasn't prevented the AI from continuing to crank them out turn after turn.

This campaign is at 286 points in September 1942, and will probably end after the mud. These operation are fun, and test the AI, show me what's possible, and to gauge AI reaction to various events. For me, the main benefit of these moves is that it often compels the AI to perform a strategic withdrawal when a city is taken relatively far behind the lines. It pulls a long length of line back, allowing an uncontested advance. The biggest gains come from this. I know from reading AARs that a human opponent wouldn't withdraw but attempt to pinch it off. And sometimes the AI does too, successfully even.

The AI gets knocked a bit, but so far I've found that the Russian AI plays well, making sensible moves, in sensible places. I feel that it gets beat not necessarily because of bad decisions or play, but because of the limitations of being the Soviets in the first year of the war. As a new player I've been impressed by it actually.




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