Destruction of railway lines (Full Version)

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dziki -> Destruction of railway lines (1/24/2019 8:01:43 PM)

First, I want to say hallo to all members of this forum.
I find WitE quite interesting, but the matter of destroying railway stations is very controversial for me.
Did it really take six months and about 70 raids to destroy 1 train node for 200 level bombers (Ju-88, He-111, Do-17)?
According to me, the Stukas Gruppe would handle this in one raid.

dziki



Chris21wen -> RE: Destruction of railway lines (1/25/2019 6:03:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dziki

First, I want to say hallo to all members of this forum.
I find WitE quite interesting, but the matter of destroying railway stations is very controversial for me.
Did it really take six months and about 70 raids to destroy 1 train node for 200 level bombers (Ju-88, He-111, Do-17)?
According to me, the Stukas Gruppe would handle this in one raid.

dziki


I think you are going to need to explain in more detail what the problem is.



dziki -> RE: Destruction of railway lines (1/25/2019 11:22:49 AM)

To slow down the speed od transport supplies for the Sovites I try to destroy their railway lines. It's only possible by attack big towns and choose railyard.
I made a test. I select Road to Leningrad, bombing city, target Riga and railyard. Selected all axis bombers. No ground movement.

1-st raid: 113 bombers - 5% destruction
2-nd : 118 bombers - 10% destruction (total)
3 and 4: 176 bmb - 23%
5: 151 bmb - 36%
6: 135 bmb - 39%
7: 121 - 41%
8: 120 - 42 %
9: 128 - 46%
10: 115 - 55% destruction of railyard (total)
After 5 tours (weeks) I've got 55% destruction level of railyard and it still works.

So question is how long does it take in WitE to destroy one railyard ?
For me it would be enough one raid with 50 level bombers or 12 Stukas to break railyard for at least one tour (7 days).
What for is this option so it's useless ??



xhoel -> RE: Destruction of railway lines (1/25/2019 11:31:54 AM)

That is not how the system works so you should stop pursuing that strategy. You can't ''destroy'' rail lines the way you mentioned.



821Bobo -> RE: Destruction of railway lines (1/25/2019 11:35:01 AM)

1. if I recall, damaging or capturing railyards affects only transport capacity for moving units and/or industry but not supplies
2. every turn it is anyway repaired by construction units

It is not worth bombing railyards



Chris21wen -> RE: Destruction of railway lines (1/25/2019 12:07:49 PM)

Not as simply as what you are suggesting. Simply put, units must be able to trace a path a certain number of hexes and movement points to either the headquarters unit to which they are attached or directly to a railhead. If it's to a HQ then the HQ itself must then be able to trace a path to a railhead. Railheads are hexes on the rail network connected to a permanent supply source. They are also the point at which road transport takes over.(see term deffinitions page 20).

There's a little more too it than that because there are other rules governing supply tracing but the important point here is it's any rail hex not just cities etc. What you are doing by attempting to destroy a railyard is to damage the strategic rail capacity of the Soviets. (see section 21.1.10 new manual).

If you want to stop (some) supplies from getting to a city cut the line(s) to it using a ground unit.



56ajax -> RE: Destruction of railway lines (1/26/2019 2:28:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

1. if I recall, damaging or capturing railyards affects only transport capacity for moving units and/or industry but not supplies
2. every turn it is anyway repaired by construction units

It is not worth bombing railyards

Don't you love it....the shorter the lines of communication get in Russia the more the railway capacity deteriorates...



thedoctorking -> RE: Destruction of railway lines (1/26/2019 4:15:27 AM)

I have to say this seems odd to me. I think it works more intuitively in WitW, and so will be better in WitE2 as well, one presumes.



Chris21wen -> RE: Destruction of railway lines (1/26/2019 7:38:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax


quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

1. if I recall, damaging or capturing railyards affects only transport capacity for moving units and/or industry but not supplies
2. every turn it is anyway repaired by construction units

It is not worth bombing railyards

Don't you love it....the shorter the lines of communication get in Russia the more the railway capacity deteriorates...


Don't see the problem. Railyards don't just represent the rail lines but railstock so loss of that will reduce transport capacity.



56ajax -> RE: Destruction of railway lines (1/26/2019 8:19:12 AM)

I just think railyards, locos and rolling stock are poorly modelled. (Probably a feature that was never fully developed)

Well reducing your internal lines of communication should improve your logistics and in the game it doesn't.

If railyards represent locos and rolling stock then their loss should impact supply, and in the game it doesn't.

Railyards are fixed and rolling stock is naturally mobile.

There is no capacity to evacuate or produce rolling stock.

There is no Lend Lease rolling stock.

and historically

The Soviets did not place a high priority on producing locos and rolling stock, I assume because they had plenty??? (or they walked)

The Germans were reliant on capturing Soviet rolling stock for supply purposes, which did not occur, I assume because it was evacuated or destroyed.



821Bobo -> RE: Destruction of railway lines (1/26/2019 8:34:42 AM)

In reality Soviets were able to evacuate most of the locomotives and railstock. Also they got over 2k locomotives from LL so they were not pressed on building new.



dziki -> RE: Destruction of railway lines (1/26/2019 10:28:21 PM)

Thanks for replies.
I must say, I'm newbie in this game, but not at WW2 strategy games and field of WW2.
A long time ago :) I played a lot in "Desert rats", "Arnhem" and "Vulcan" (the best one with fog of war and air recon) from CCS at Timex Computer 2048(Portugal version of Spectrum with 48K RAM).
That was it ! Only 48K bytes and SO good strategies.
But let's back to WitE.
I don't read too much manual, just want to play as soon as possible and historical correct.
I thought, If there are modeled railway lines and Soviet partisans can destroy German lines, so there must be some way to destroy Soviet lines.
Then I found this option in bombing city -> railyards and I was sure that's what I'm looking for.
I still think this option is practicaly usless and could be better (more historically) modeled.



Chris21wen -> RE: Destruction of railway lines (1/27/2019 6:52:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dziki

I played a lot in "Desert rats" and "Arnhem" at Times computer (48K RAM).
That was it ! Only 48K bytes and SO good strategy.



That is a long time ago. Spectrum by any chance?

I don't disagree with what others have said about rail modelling but like many game compromises have to be taken during the design stage, not least the ability of a computer to handle what you do throw at it.



MarauderPL -> RE: Destruction of railway lines (1/27/2019 9:38:56 AM)

Its a game man, not a simulator/visual novel, you wont find here 100% historical accuracy. Reading the manual (especially the new one provided by Chris) is a great way into the game, otherwise you will be walking around in the dark, this game has a lot of obscure concepts that are super hard to figure out oneself.



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