Penetration for al weapons (Full Version)

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Gavris Narcis -> Penetration for al weapons (6/16/2001 10:15:00 AM)

Hello ! Was told that in SPWAW 5.0 is introduced for all weapons a steel penetration (minor of course, but realistic) !!! Why, for this, only the 0.50 caliber have a penetration value listed among all weapons ? It is not accurate because it is know that even a small arm have steel penetration capabilities witch increased with the caliber and with the reducing range. Leo.



Flashfyre -> (6/16/2001 10:30:00 AM)

What new penetration values are you referring to? Rifles? Pistols? Machine guns? I believe there has been some adjustment to small arms penetrating lightly-armored vehicles....I just had 2 of my German squads, armed with Kar98 rifles and 7.92mm LMGs hit and damage 2 US halftracks with rifle fire. One M3 'track took a side turret hit that knocked out the MG; the other M2A1 'track took a front hull hit the immobilized it. Both tracks were only hit by rifle fire; neither squad got to use it's LMG or grenades. So, I don't really know what "problem" you seem to think hasn't been corrected..... :confused:



Gavris Narcis -> (6/16/2001 10:56:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Flashfyre: What new penetration values are you referring to? Rifles? Pistols? Machine guns? I believe there has been some adjustment to small arms penetrating lightly-armored vehicles....I just had 2 of my German squads, armed with Kar98 rifles and 7.92mm LMGs hit and damage 2 US halftracks with rifle fire. One M3 'track took a side turret hit that knocked out the MG; the other M2A1 'track took a front hull hit the immobilized it. Both tracks were only hit by rifle fire; neither squad got to use it's LMG or grenades. So, I don't really know what "problem" you seem to think hasn't been corrected..... :confused:
O.K. But why is not listed the penetration value for this weapons/rifles ? At the weapons characteristics this is 0:0 !!!!!! Leo. Leo.



Paul Vebber -> (6/16/2001 11:01:00 PM)

The penetration capability of small arms is restrited to MGs and requires a "vulnerable location hit. THis does not represent penetration per se but a few rounds going through vision slits or unprotectd areas on lightly armored vehicles.



Gavris Narcis -> (6/18/2001 1:19:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: The penetration capability of small arms is restrited to MGs and requires a "vulnerable location hit. THis does not represent penetration per se but a few rounds going through vision slits or unprotectd areas on lightly armored vehicles.
It's not accurate at all. Previously I mentioned many sources wich described the real capabilities of so called small arms, example was german rifle kar98. The 80-90% ammunition manufactured in WWII for this rifle was stell hardened pointed bullet with hard core (tungsten). Here are the characteristics for this bullet on WWII tests : ''Between 80 and 90 % of all 7,9mm ammunition produced was of the 7,9 sS (sS for schweres Spitzgeschoss = "heavy pointed bullet") type; the complete cartridge weighed 27g, it was 80.6 mm long and contained 2.7g of gunpowder; the projectile weighed 12.8 g and was 35mm long. When fired from a MG34 or MG42 (as well as from the other rifles using the cartridge) it had a typical V0 of 755 m/s. The regular sS projectile had the following penetration performance: 85cm of dry pine wood at 100m, 65cm at 400m, 45cm at 800m and 10cm at 1,800m; 10mm of iron at 300m, 7mm at 550m; 5mm of steel at 100m; 3mm at 600m.'' This thing is certified by ALL sources I've searched (books, Internet) What do you say about this ? I think it is a big error do not enter this in game ! 3 mm stell at 600m = it must to be stated in game at weapon characteristics were is present the numbers x:x at range and stell penetrated tickness !!!!!!!!!!!! Leo



Truckeye -> (6/18/2001 1:30:00 AM)

i can see how a german round as you describe can really beat up a truck, wagon, or car. but the chances of effecting a non-open topped AFV is so rare, that for game purposes it is correct. how many AFVs have 3mm armor that it might effect. few if any had less than 5mm and 10mm seems to be about normal for halftracks and armored cars. add in a few angles and the magic bullit theory only works in dallas tx.



Flashfyre -> (6/18/2001 5:32:00 AM)

Most halftracks/armored cars have armor ratings of at least 6; some have higher. So by your data, no rifle could penetrate them, even at a one-hex range. That's minimum of 6mm armor, vs penetration of 5mm at 100meters (2 hexes). Matches your data. I see no reason for you to complain, since the data upholds the results.



Voriax -> (6/18/2001 6:26:00 AM)

Sigh..not again..same topic and same topic starter than about a month ago..and same answers. Just one comment. the 7.9 sS round was not hardened, not steel and definitely not tungsten. This was the standard full metal jacket round with copper/iron jacket and lead filling. The 'SmK' round had a steel core and about 8% of produced rounds were of this type. And finally the 'SmK(H)' round had this tungsten core, and accounts for about 1% of production..and production ceased in 1942. Voriax



Larry Holt -> (6/18/2001 8:08:00 PM)

Can anyone explain the "accracy factor" for weapons, that I see in the weapons screen in the OB editor? I know that it has something to do with the range that there is a 50% chance of a first round hit but I don't know how to change values of 35, 55, etc. into a hex range.



Paul Vebber -> (6/18/2001 8:52:00 PM)

The number in the acc block is hexes to 50% base accuracy times 4 (the old size of an SP3 hex was 4 SP1/2 hexes so they could use the same numbers)



Grumble -> (6/19/2001 5:07:00 AM)

quote:

; 5mm of steel at 100m; 3mm at 600m.''
Here's what I say to this: "steel" ain't ARMOR PLATE (let alone face-hardened, homogeneous, rolled etc). Penetrations listed are no surprise: 8mm round going through 5mm of "soft" steel at 100m is nothing too spectacular. My old 30.06 deer rifle was capable of a similar performance. As Voriax noted, this is not AP ammunition, just jacketed ball.



Gavris Narcis -> (6/19/2001 8:24:00 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voriax: [QB]Sigh..not again..same topic and same topic starter than about a month ago..and same answers. Just one comment. the 7.9 sS round was not hardened, not steel and definitely not tungsten. This was the standard full metal jacket round with copper/iron jacket and lead filling. The 'SmK' round had a steel core and about 8% of produced rounds were of this type. And finally the 'SmK(H)' round had this tungsten core, and accounts for about 1% of production..and production ceased in 1942. Hello Voriax ! But how about with this 8% steel core round and 1% tungsten core you are talking ? Eliminated from reality ? Even for this 8% or 1%, that means millions and millions of fired bullets !!!!!!! Now you see the problem ? How to simulate this on the game ? And for you, personaly, my intervention on forum about game it is not just talking/free words, but ideas/problems to discuss for the improvement of this excelent game !!!! I only want to give a hand of help ! Best regards, Leo.



Gavris Narcis -> (6/19/2001 8:25:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Grumble: Here's what I say to this: "steel" ain't ARMOR PLATE (let alone face-hardened, homogeneous, rolled etc). Penetrations listed are no surprise: 8mm round going through 5mm of "soft" steel at 100m is nothing too spectacular. My old 30.06 deer rifle was capable of a similar performance. As Voriax noted, this is not AP ammunition, just jacketed ball.
Hello Grumble, What you are talking about ? Please be more specific ! Leo.



Grumble -> (6/19/2001 10:33:00 PM)

Hi, What i"m talking about is, your penetration tables are talking about "soft" steel, NOT armor plate. They are very different materials. My 30.06 deer rifle (7.62mm approximately) with standard jacketed ball ammunition (similar to that mentioned by Voriax) could easily penetrate several milimeters of soft steel at 100m or so. Bottom line is, the figures you quote are not impressive frankly, and do not mention ARMOR PIERCING capability.



sven -> (6/19/2001 10:37:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Grumble: Hi, What i"m talking about is, your penetration tables are talking about "soft" steel, NOT armor plate. They are very different materials. My 30.06 deer rifle (7.62mm approximately) with standard jacketed ball ammunition (similar to that mentioned by Voriax) could easily penetrate several milimeters of soft steel at 100m or so. Bottom line is, the figures you quote are not impressive frankly, and do not mention ARMOR PIERCING capability.
Hey grumble.... I wonder what the pen of a Red Ryder bb gun would be? I'll bet guys took out APCs with them in Romania... ;)



Voriax -> (6/19/2001 11:48:00 PM)

Hello Gavris Firstly, i've nothing against you personally or your ideas...guess I had a bad day and sometimes seeing same topics over and over again irritates me a bit :) As for those steel and tungsten cored rounds. They certainly didn't vanish. But the question is whether these rounds were issued to regular troops or were they reserved for some special units/purposes. I'd personally hazard a guess that most of these armour piercing rounds were used up in AA machineguns and in aircraft mg's. So your average german soldier would only have standard ammunition which has very weak armour piercing capabilities. Voriax



Warhorse -> (6/19/2001 11:59:00 PM)

Well, I read, I believe in the German Infantry Handbook, that until something like 1941, the individual soldier might be issued a maximum of 10 rounds of the special ammo, however, after it was discovered to be of dubious value at best, it was not regularly issued. The time it would take to switch ammo to shoot at a AFV, only to not effect it, but draw attention to one-self, seemed fruitless. I can't swear to this fact right now, since I'm at work, but I did read this during the oob work I did on Germany over a year and a half ago, and the idea was being kicked around on whether to simulate this somehow.It was pretty much decided IIRC, that the AI might not handle it correctly at the time(v2.3), and/or, the value and rarity dismissed its inclusion to the game. It has been awhile since then, but that's what I foggily recall ;)



Brummagem -> (6/20/2001 2:09:00 AM)

Hey Sven, My younger brother is an authority on what the pen of bb fired from a Red Ryder is ;). Hate to be the bearer of bad news but anything thicker that a pair of bluejeans or a beer can will stop it cold in it's tracks. Still leaves a heck of a welt though. :D



Grumble -> (6/20/2001 5:48:00 AM)

...and it will "POKE YOUR EYE OUT". ;)



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