Panzerschreck, Panzerfaust, and Bazooka (Full Version)

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Eric Bondura -> Panzerschreck, Panzerfaust, and Bazooka (6/17/2001 3:53:00 AM)

I am also interested in opinions regarding the ranges of the panzerschreck and bazooka. The range assigned to the bazooka seems high to me, although I have no facts to support this. Does anybody know how the bazooka compared to the panzerschreck in actual employment? And is it just me or does it seem like the panzerfaust 100 always being used by the German infantry, when it seems like the panzerfaust 30 or 60 should be what is assigned? Foe interesting reading on the German weapons I suggest this page: whttp://www.eagle19.freeserve.co.uk/links.htm



Panzer Leo -> (6/17/2001 4:27:00 AM)

Hi Otto ! If you want information an PzFaust and PzSchreck, check this one Panzerfaust homepage It's an accelent resource. What goes for the PzSchreck the range is fine. The round could travel way further (atleast 700m), but it was so inaccurate over 200m, that it makes no sense to fire beyond that range. Even shots over 100m should be taken very wisely - running away with the big PzSchreck after missing is not really an option :D As for the Bazooka, I'm not really into it, but having sightings with ranges set up to 300m and optics on the M9 it seems logical to have 6/7 hexes in the game (but with that accuracy I wouldn't shoot it either at the end of it's range span) hope that helps, Leo



sven -> (6/17/2001 6:43:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Panzer Leo: Hi Otto ! If you want information an PzFaust and PzSchreck, check this one Panzerfaust homepage It's an accelent resource. What goes for the PzSchreck the range is fine. The round could travel way further (atleast 700m), but it was so inaccurate over 200m, that it makes no sense to fire beyond that range. Even shots over 100m should be taken very wisely - running away with the big PzSchreck after missing is not really an option :D As for the Bazooka, I'm not really into it, but having sightings with ranges set up to 300m and optics on the M9 it seems logical to have 6/7 hexes in the game (but with that accuracy I wouldn't shoot it either at the end of it's range span) hope that helps, Leo
Panzer: kind of amusing to think about the fact that the Modern Dragon has only a 1,000 range or the TOW a 3,000..... I am always easily amused though. regards, sven



Panzer Leo -> (6/17/2001 3:37:00 PM)

Yep, and especially if you think of the new German infantry AT-weapon, the PzFaust 3. It is actually a going back to the old PzFaust system of a not reloadable, unguided weapon with high penetration capability, but short range. Only the optics and the handgrip/shoulderpiece is reusable. You can take a shot at a standing target at 400m (size of a tank), but in battle with a moving target don't go beyond 200m - aiming becomes pretty much of an adventure :D Thinking of this, I tried to take a closer look at the WWII Bazooka and it's performence...but damn, I have a hard time to find any good and trustworthy data on this thing. I only found a good looking resource which deals with the M9 with M7A1 rockets, deployed in the early stages of the Korean war. It claims an effective range of 120yards for hard targets and a penetration of 5in (125mm) and being unable to deal with the T-34/85 :confused: So does anyone have a good resource on the Bazooka and it's ammunition ?...maybe Ammo Sgt or Paul ?



Richard Harris -> (6/17/2001 7:20:00 PM)

There was some discussion on penetration of these weapons in the TOE&OOB Forum "SPWAW Infantry HEAT Weapons" IIRC, embarrasing if I don't remember correctly as I started it! From Hogg's "Tank Killing" the 2.36" Launcher M1/M9 used the M6 series bomb. M6 rocket pen approx 80mm (early prod) M6A1/A2 rocket approx 100mm (mainly M1) M6A3/A4 rocket approx 120mm (mainly M9) M6A5 rocket approx 125mm (post war) Rockets were interchangeable between M1 and M9 launchers. They were indeed obsolescent by Korea, which spurred the US Army to finish the development of the 3.5" (originally 3.45") Launcher M20 (the Super-Bazooka), which they started looking at late in WWII.



Panzer Leo -> (6/17/2001 8:33:00 PM)

Sounds pretty close to what I found out. I read in the forum about this special ammunition (was something with a hotter and better aimed copper jet or so) raising the penetration to over 170mm :eek: This is what is given for the M9 in the game available from Jan '44. But what is it with this special ammo (what designation/ production numbers) and where did it go after the war, since it is not mentioned in the Korean War, where it would have been quite useful :confused: Concerning the range, I think I have to correct my statement from above. It might be a bit to high for the Bazooka. It was used against soft targets at higher ranges like the PzSchreck, but most sources give it an effective range against tanks no more then 150m. If this is true, it should be about 4/5 hexes for the game (the additional 100m for the guys who got more hope then maths in the heart). :D



Richard Harris -> (6/18/2001 1:14:00 PM)

The pen of 178 for the M9 in SPWAW 5.01 was there for game mechanics. If I understood Paul's explanation, most of the time HEAT pen will be 3/4 of the listed maximum (with some exceptions). This meant that Infantry HEAT should be performing near optimal r/l performance (120 odd mm for the M9) most of the time. However, there appears to be a bug that means that Infantry AT weapons using HEAT nearly always attack at full strength not the correct 3/4 value... Paul has changed these values and they are now available from Tankhead's site etc... As for this 'improved munition' I don't know what it is. Early 3.5" rockets for the M20 had a pen of about 180mm IIRC, this was subsequently improved. (The best figure I've seen for 3.5" HEAT is 280mm pen.) As far as range goes; a 3.5" M20 Launcher can hurl a bomb out to some 1200m or so(presumably with the launcher at 45deg.) Its effective range against an armour (i.e. point + moving) target is only 110m. (Hogg: Jane's Infantry Weapons 1984). In other words these weapons can reach a fair old distance but not accurately. All references I have seen though, give the 2.36" Bazooka a better range than the Panzerschreck. Hmmmm...



AmmoSgt -> (6/18/2001 3:12:00 PM)

All depends on how you define effective range ..and effctive range on various websites and books for the bazooka seem to vary greatly from a low of 90 meters to a high of over a 1000 meters ..usually expressed as against tanks or moving tanks in the 100-400 metere band and against staionary gun emplacements in the 500-1000 band .. That bazookas were used against some targets out several hundred meters does not seem disputed ... That Bazookas could not penetrate everything at every angle does not seem disputed ... Since there seems to be no dispute that HEAT penetration is uneffected by range .. and since the up shot of multitudes of conflicting sources seem to indicate that the bazooka outranged the Panzershreck .. I think the current range values seem more correct than not proportionally, as they currently are .. whatever tweaks or vaules must be pluged in to get the game mechanism to reflect appropiate distrubutions of penetration should be made and whatever tweaks to range to get desired accuracy at given ranges should be made ...whatever those maybe .. but on the whole i think current ranges currently do that.. IF physics and not politics and propaganda are the driving force .. Most tank guns can indeed shoot farther than the sighting mechanisms will allow and the sighting mechamism is the limiting factor making the extreme range goverened more by optics tham physics .. bazookas and shrecks have a different mechanism in this regard .. and the Panzershrecks obvious difference in rocket motors as evidenced by the needed extra safety clothing and /or blast shield when compared to the bazooka indicate that germans had some dificulty ,probably resulting from the lack of development time in making the weapon initially ( the need for specialized clothing and the shield not being evident from trials) and being field fixes .. I am sure to some degree this problem was addressed in later production runs of the rockets .. but i suspect that for similar reasons that the Sherman lagged behind in being upguned , the panzershreck was not improved as fast and lagged behind the bazooka in range .. I wish i had better primary sources and i am sure they exist somewhere ..but i sure can't find them



Mike Wood -> (6/18/2001 6:57:00 PM)

Hello... When we trained with the 3.5" rocket launcher in 1972, I and most of our platoon hit the target tank at 400 meters on our very first shot. They are fairly accurate. I always preferred the bazooka over the LAW. I assume you are joking about the 45 degree angle shot. The missle would fall out of the back on the tube before you fired. Effective range is often a matter of doctrine, more than anything else. When we switched from the M-14 to the M-16, we still had to hit a one foot circle at 500 meters, even though the Colt Firearms and the U.S. Army said the maximum effective range was only 250 yards. Bye... Michael Wood U.S.M.C. ___________________________________________
quote:

Originally posted by Richard Harris: As far as range goes; a 3.5" M20 Launcher can hurl a bomb out to some 1200m or so(presumably with the launcher at 45deg.) Its effective range against an armour (i.e. point + moving) target is only 110m. (Hogg: Jane's Infantry Weapons 1984)...
[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: Mike Wood ]



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