naval game has me stumped (Full Version)

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gwgardner -> naval game has me stumped (3/3/2019 3:07:39 PM)

When playing SCWaW and SC War in Europe I have never succeeded in any naval action, either against the AI (I know, I'm pitiful) or especially against an opponent. Convoy raiding - my subs get creamed. Convoy protection, my defenders get creamed. Attempts to deploy a naval task force, for instance to protect transports - I get creamed. Attempts to defend against enemy task forces, I lose every time.

I spend all my campaigning time researching, upgrading, repairing naval forces. Never using them to effect.

I move a carrier force into position to attack enemy naval forces, my planes have no range. My carriers get severely damaged, notwithstanding escorts.

Why can my enemy always hit my ships and retire from the scene of action, whereas if I try to do the same, I get stalled in position where the enemy can wipe me out?

Can anyone here provide a few simple tips on how to do anything right with navies?

I have looked over posts in both forums on naval issues, but it hasn't helped so far.



Yogol -> RE: naval game has me stumped (3/3/2019 3:18:31 PM)

I'm not good with them either, but I am... less bad now that I always use them in bulk: I don't go out with 1-2 ships, but always with 5+. Even submarines.

The only exception is defending Pearl Harbor: together with the 4 maritime bombers you should have by then, any extra ship will do serious harm to the Japanese navy.



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: naval game has me stumped (3/3/2019 4:13:33 PM)

All the technology in the world does mean a thing, if you don't know what to do with it.

People make things happen. Click wisely. Strategic Command, not Tactical Command.



Christolos -> RE: naval game has me stumped (3/3/2019 4:53:35 PM)

Hi gwgardner,

It sounds like you are moving in to strike from too far a distance as to not leave enough action points to escape after attacking, if you don't want to stick around and face a counterattack. In other words, you need to gauge the optimal distance from which to move in for the attack (even sneaking up to it over multiple turns if needed), if you don't want to stick around. This basically amounts to hit and run tactics (there has been discussion of this on the forum), which at first glance, may seem inappropriate for a Strategic level game...so it is probably better to think of it as strategic redeployments over a period of time that does not necessarily have to correspond only to the actual time it would take to shell a ship. My take is that this is simply the level of abstraction needed to have a naval game at this scale. I know you have some ideas to model this differently, as do others on this forum, but I kind of like it the way is because it works for me as well as for other opponents I have been playing, and I find it a lot of fun.

To really be effective, carriers should be upgraded to naval weaponry 2, have some level of advanced aircraft, and some level of long range aircraft.

Does this help?

Cheers,

C



gwgardner -> RE: naval game has me stumped (3/3/2019 5:13:56 PM)

Hah, remains to be seen if it helps. It's you I'm going against, so I suspect you'll be ready for anything.



Capitaine -> RE: naval game has me stumped (3/3/2019 5:35:37 PM)

Play without FOW. I believe the AI ignores it, and you shouldn't be at that kind of disadvantage. It's so abstract anyway I'm not sure FOW is even appropriate for this kind of combat mechanism.



Christolos -> RE: naval game has me stumped (3/3/2019 7:48:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Hah, remains to be seen if it helps. It's you I'm going against, so I suspect you'll be ready for anything.

Indeed there is a counter strategy to every strategy and the way I guard against hit and run naval attacks, or at least try to, is by careful deployment and always being ready for anything. [:)]

Cheers,

C



gamer78 -> RE: naval game has me stumped (3/3/2019 9:04:27 PM)

My opponent was raiding very efficiently British convoys -not only from subs; probably deployed whole fleet for raiding- I lose any advantage over economy in early game. India, Australia, Egypt etc.. Some of it my fault. But I think Axis raiding difficult to stop early game.



Christolos -> RE: naval game has me stumped (3/3/2019 10:37:30 PM)

It is hard in the early game, as it was historically (remember the U-boat happy times off the US coast in 42...). That is why the Allies need to survive and research ASW, which is easier said than done...but that is what the game is all about. [:)]

Cheers,

C



Hubert Cater -> RE: naval game has me stumped (3/4/2019 3:11:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Play without FOW. I believe the AI ignores it, and you shouldn't be at that kind of disadvantage. It's so abstract anyway I'm not sure FOW is even appropriate for this kind of combat mechanism.


Just to counter the possible spread of misinformation, the AI does not ignore FoW and plays with it the same way that a human player does. This can easily be tested in game to confirm.

That being said, there are difficulty settings that increase the spotting range if desired, and the AI does run various Fleet and Patrol actions that would mirror human player actions in order to increase its effectiveness.

For example, one criticism was that the Allied naval AI was easily baited along convoy routes, so to counter that I've scripted the Allied naval AI to patrol as a fleet (at random times) along convoy routes on top of its default Destroyer patrols along convoy routes as well. This way if a Destroyer comes across an enemy Sub, or a larger Axis presence along a convoy route, there will be times a larger naval engagement will commence if the larger Allied naval patrol is in the area and within range. There are dozens of examples of this in game on the AI naval side etc.



DTX111 -> RE: naval game has me stumped (3/4/2019 4:49:28 PM)

One thing to realize is that one of the advantages the AI player has in carrier warfare is that it gets to instantly
recharge its air complement before sending its 2nd attack.

Hence, even if you shoot down all or most of its planes in the first attack, it can attack with a full complement in its second attack.

This obviously gives a huge advantage to the AI. (some posts say the AI doesn't cheat, this is definitely a cheat. It's predecessor did the same thing).

It's a superb game, but it does cheat.



Hubert Cater -> RE: naval game has me stumped (3/4/2019 6:10:51 PM)

Hi DTX111,

Thanks for the report and I'd consider this to be a significant bug rather than a cheat. Can you provide more details just to make sure I understand this correctly? I only ask as this is the first I've heard of this concern.

For example, and if I'm understanding this properly, an AI Carrier attacks with let's say strength 10 air wing, is intercepted and is knocked down to 5, it jumps back to 10 and finishes its attack with a strength 10 air wing?

Any more info would help me to not only understand, but track down the issue if there is one, as well.

Thanks,
Hubert




DTX111 -> RE: naval game has me stumped (3/6/2019 2:28:23 AM)

Hubert,
Yes, that is what happens. The old strategic command did it too. I just assumed it was added to make the AI stronger (which it obviously does).

I had always wondered why the AI's carrier attacks were so potent, until I discovered this.

I play with FOW, so I first saw it when the AI's carrier attacked a task force while the AI carrier was adjacent to a friendly port. However, I think it will happen with FOW off, if the computer can be goaded to attack (transports & amphibious vehicles seem to be its favorite[:)]). Set up a few transports with a friendly carrier nearby on cap and give the AI a few carriers. Watch what happens.



Hubert Cater -> RE: naval game has me stumped (3/6/2019 12:52:27 PM)

Thanks and I can see now why this has been missed and never reported to me before as it took me about 30 playthroughs of the same test campaign on my end before I finally saw what you've described where a Carrier air wing was knocked down to 9, and then jumped back to 10 for its follow up attack. Every other playthrough it behaved as expected where the air wing was intercepted and took losses, and then followed up with its second attack with its weakened air wing after that.

I suspect this is a rare combination of combat results and the +/- 1 random losses that is causing this issue, and likely also related to another error where players have reported subs diving and losing a strength point, only to gain it back again as well.

I'll investigate further and fix this for the next update.



Hubert Cater -> RE: naval game has me stumped (3/6/2019 5:23:00 PM)

This is now fixed for the next build and as far as I could tell, it only occurs when an AI Carrier set itself to Mix mode (25% chance it will do that when preppinng to attack), was intercepted, and acted as its own escort prior to an attack.



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