207 Sicherungs Division starting position

207 Sicherungs Division starting position (Full Version)

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Saulust -> 207 Sicherungs Division starting position (3/7/2019 6:01:10 AM)
I have three questions here, From looking at several maps of the initial Barbarossa invasion, including in Manstein's "Lost Victories", 207th Security Division is usually placed next to the 217th ID on the border between XXVI & I Korps and participated in the border crossing action well into lower Lithuania at least, why is it locked on T1 in Konigsberg? The XXXVIII Korps 58 ID was also not where it starts in game either, but was well south of the Neman River may be as far as Labiau or so, but it is basically right up behind the juncture of the other two previously named Korps, while it also had one of the three IDs that is in XXIII Korps (254 ID) in it and near there also. Interestingly it swapped out this original ID for another XXIII ID (251 ID) for much of Barbarossa! Why isn't one or the other actually in XXXVIII Korps at start? Lastly, the three lowest numbered Sicherungs/Security Divisions were originally just regular German Infantry Divisions, of the same wave as the 206 & 217 IDs plus possibly later arriving others such as 212, 215, 223, 227 IDs etc IIRC, but then were dissected into three providing the re-action force Infantry Regiment basis for the 9 starting Sicherungs/Security Divisions. Why are their Regular Infantry and complimentary components such as MGs, 81mm Mortars, Infantry Guns, Company of PAKs, one platoon worth of Pioneers & Mounted Recce 1 12 cannon Btln of 105mm leFHs capped at only at 50% experience and morale, when they ought to be at around the same as similar walle IDs at perhaps 75-80 experience/morale? I can understand the 'Security' squads and much of the supply support elements being capped at 50% experience and morale, but these regimental re-action force groups were meant to be their hard hitting element of SEC Divs. AFAIK these troops would have been recruited and trained normally, not being designated different from regular ID elements until much later, but only perhaps later once in these 'second line' divisions they may have received the cast offs as replacements, but they had only too recently been down-graded as it were for such a drastic loss of performance IMHO since it was only a few months before Barbarossa these 9 Security Divs were created from 3 regular IDs. I think there is actually some debate regarding if the transforming of 3 good regular IDs into 9 crap SEC 2nd line Divs was a good idea for Barbarossa or or not, personally in game terms at least where two of the 3 original SEC Divs start on T1 I really wouldn't mind if they were converted back to regular IDs even at the expense of poorer 6 remaining SEC Divs.

Cirque_du_Melee -> RE: 207 Sicherungs Division starting position (3/26/2019 2:36:00 AM)
Hi, I will attempt to shed some light on your first question. The following information I gathered was from a GeneralStabs produced map series called "Der Feldzug gegen Sowjet-Russland : Band I. Operationen Sommer-Herbst 1941 vom 21. Juni-6. Dezember 1941." If you know anything about the German General Staff (and how competitive it was to get in), then you know this is gonna be a meticulously done map series. (while the location of the German units on these maps can be considered accurate, as they were based on the daily evening situation reports that were being communicated directly from the front, in cases where they (the Generalstabs) are unsure exactly what a division is doing or where it is, they find a way to indicate it on the map. The maps report of Soviet locations and movements is also based on German reports, so the soviet unit locations are only shown from the German perspective, and dont account for full info, (i.e., the real life fog of war, btw, this also implies that at least some of the indicated Soviet dispostions on that map are in fact incorrect.) You can actually look at this map series yourself at the Library of Congress website (or just copy and paste the german title on google). If you're not aware, this map is a (starting with evening June 21 dispostions) day by day divisional location guide for the entire eastern front. It was based on the actual location of the every German/Axis divsion/bridade/regt location that was updated every evening from the 21st of June (yes the day before the actual invasion) till Dec 06. While June 22- early Sept are day by day updates, the updating was not done daily in Oct / Nov / Dec, possibly once it was obvious that the operation had failed strategically (at least as initially envisioned ala early endings in Poland/France) and therefore there may have been less motivation to record this campaign for posterity (that does not seem like plausible reasoning though). The Generalstabs' map indicates (and Manstein's map for his book is not technically incorrect), that as of the evening of 21 June (each division's evening reports,which probably inluded a situation/status/location report, were probably required by their higher headquarters at 1900 hours every evening, thats 7pm if you were not aware, and of course those reports would make their way up the chain of command till OKH got them), the 207 was split into 2 pieces. On the map there is location 1) 207 that has the letters "Ma" next to it, and 2) the second location has the german letters "tle." In case you are unfamiliar with German map protocol, the "ma" is an abbreviation of "Main" (as in "main body") and the "tle" is an abbreviation of the german word "teile" which means parts (in this context when the German word "parts" was used it should be thought of as "smaller parts.") When this was done on the map for regular divisions, the "tle" usually meant approximately one regiment (plus whatever division/corps assets may have been attached) ,though not necessarily, it could be a scratch force e.g., Bn(+), Regt(-), or a smaller sized Kampfegrupee etc. for example, while the "ma" indicated the main body of the division (usually the 2 remaining regiments plus support, in the case of a 1941 ToE Wehrmacht early welle infantry div). On the OKH situation map (the one made by the Germans based on the evening daily reports from each division along the entire eastern front) the evening of June 21st indicates that the smaller part of the 207th is right on the border of Lithuania (with the 217th on its left and 11th on its right, btw the 58th is shown at least 5-10 miles behind the 11th Infantry division, however, the main part of the 207 is about 50-75 (I'm estimating as its hard to judge on this digital map) miles away from the detached part of the 207th on the border, maybe 15-20 miles north east of Konigsberg (Labiau, like you said), and this is the location of at least 66 percent of the division. So, based on this source, part of the divison was on the frontline/Barbarossa launch area, and the main part of it was at least 30-40 miles away in the vicinity of NE of Konigsberg. It was probably a game design decision to set it as it is. Hope this helps. By the way, sorry for the length, I just recently came across this info and am just really talking to myself somewhat.

Saulust -> RE: 207 Sicherungs Division starting position (5/6/2019 1:55:00 AM)
Yes, thank you very much Cirque_du_Mellee, I had definitely previously seen the first map or two of those GeneralStabs and that is what I was originally thinking about when discussing 207 Sich und naming the thread... cheers, btw someone has linked to the Congress link on another thread here recently too! Yes I remember now that it was only a part of 207 indicated between the two 18th Army Corps/Divs (217 & 11 IDs) and the map I remember explained that 'tle' meant a small portion or part of it probably at Regimental size, so I am assuming it is the Action Group Infantry Regiment of 207 Sich, to be sure, which figured. I have also continued looking into these Sicherungs Divisions, trying to work out their usual composition and ultimately exactly how much LS they had (Security Sections in game terms) they out to roughly have, at least for my on piece of mind, because they just drive me crazy as they're set up on T1. They ought to have the 1 full Infantry Regiment with: 108 Infantry Sections plus the 3 of the 'mounted' platoon either on horses or mc so 111 is correct in game terms along with their 36 HMGs, 12 ATGs, 12 leFH 105s plus 6 leIGs & 2 sIGs but usually 4 Btlns of LS usually in 4 on average Companies of 3 platoons of 3-4 Sections of LS, but probably 4 so either 144 or more probably 192 Security Sections, not as low as 108 as the game has it plus a Wach Btln of again at least 3 Companies or may have been 4 which also had two of its own ieIGs (I think) and may be perhaps some sMGs up to a Companies worth, so 12 but I couldn't find mention of any Mortars or or ATGs so that's at least: 36 to 48 more Security Sections, unless you want to consider them better than the LS and count them as Regular Infantry, pus at least the 2 more leIGs to make the 8 in the game TOE for Sich Divs but there was also usually a two Company Motorised Police Btln each of 3 platoons which also had 16 sMGs, I don't know much how these were formed or how to count them as Security Sections in game terms, but probably 2 Companies x 3 Platoons x 3 Security Sections for 18 minimum up to 24 in total. From what I have read the Germans, who ever was ultimately responsible for their creation and composition (Halder?) ensured that these Sich Divs and their LS Btlns were up to strength and also that these were the best of the LS they had, which were usually in Btlns of 4 Companies, of 3 Platoons each of either 3 sections of 13 men each (old style) or 4 Sections of ten men each with 1 SMG and 1 LMG per platoon (rear areas) or per section (probably for the Ostfront) while the Wach Btlns were somewhat more formally set with better quality than the LS... If you just regard the Action Group Regiment as qualifying as Regular Infantry and not the Wach (Watch) or Police Btln components then I count up a TOE Max for the starting 9 Sich Divisions and early Barbarossa Sicherungs Divs Max TOE as: 111 Infantry Sections 52-64 HMGs 27 ATR 12 ATGs 12 leFH 8 leIGs 2 sIGs 198-258+ Securty Sections Or short hand; 1 Infantry Rgmt 1 Light Field Howitzer Btln 4 Btlns of LS each on average of 4 Companies 1 Btln of Wach of 3 Companies 1 Mot Police Btln of 2 Companies That's 21 Companies of Security 1 Regiment of Infantry and 6+ to 7 Btlns amount of Security so at least 1 to 2 ratio. Also I would like to mention that the Security Sections '39 in the game has 3 SMG 'Schmeissers' when I think judging by what I have read on them in my research they probably only had one per Platoon in low priorty areas but at most 1 alone per Section of LS for '41, but that might have increased during the War, so I could stomach 1, but not 3 TBH. They had a similar rate of lMGs too. Oh, lastly please check your game but mine now has a 207th Sich Div at 70% Experience & Morale and both a full 111 of regular Inf but also 108 of Security, not sure I've done this in mine on just my 2 PCs, but sitting in Koenigsberg is a Frozen 8 CV 207th SD, while the other 2 yellow SDs are still like the rest at 50% Exp & Morale short all their Security Sections and are only at 4 CV!

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