Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (Full Version)

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Big B -> Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/17/2019 7:30:42 PM)

Hello,
I have been pondering the subject of high-altitude fighter sweeps as a tactic in this game.
As a tool of achieving air-superiority - it's an absolute must... game wise.

I do have to say though, that it is more than a bit unrealistic.

What works best in the game is to sweep with the highest altitude your best fighters can provide, for a quickly lopsided massacre of your opponent - providing your aircraft can fly higher and faster than his.

In the game, this quickly leads to sweeps at 37,000 to 40,000 plus feet.

In a way, this simulates the advantage of better altitude performance, but taken as a representation WW2 air combat - it is drastically unrealistic.

First of all, in the game, fighters sweeping at 39,000 feet will bounce fighters patrolling at 10-15,000 feet, whereas in reality they would be far too high above them to even see them, let alone dive down on them.

Secondly, this kind of stratosphere combat is representative of the Korean War and the jet age - Not WW2, where air combat was limited to the altitude of attacking bombers (none of which flew over 25,000 feet).


To the main point - What does the forum community think of this? And would many of you favor limiting all air combat to say...26,000 to 28,000 feet?

Just curious,

B



GetAssista -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/17/2019 8:17:08 PM)

Low layered CAP works great against stratosweeps. It is used in recent AARs with great effect against P-38s and P-47s

Yeah, altitude mismatch could've been modelled better in the game, but it does not break the game thanks to the above



DanSez -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/17/2019 8:30:50 PM)

Just for maintaining 'historic flavor' I tend to recommend a 3 tiered cap to reflect the rise of service ceiling and increased capabilities as the war progressed

1941/1942 Top altitude 25k
1943/1944 Top altitude 30k
1945/1946 Top altitude 35k

easy to remember, easy to set

some people don't like any rules, I am sure you will hear from them soon




Miller -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/17/2019 9:33:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Low layered CAP works great against stratosweeps. It is used in recent AARs with great effect against P-38s and P-47s

Yeah, altitude mismatch could've been modelled better in the game, but it does not break the game thanks to the above


Only if your pilots and planes are comparable in quality to your opponents, otherwise I have found the results are the same (a one sided massacre).



GetAssista -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/18/2019 8:11:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller
quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
Low layered CAP works great against stratosweeps. It is used in recent AARs with great effect against P-38s and P-47s

Yeah, altitude mismatch could've been modelled better in the game, but it does not break the game thanks to the above

Only if your pilots and planes are comparable in quality to your opponents, otherwise I have found the results are the same (a one sided massacre).

Well, yes, you should not expect miracles against superior technology pumped up even further by quality pilots.

What I would tweak in the game instead is an abysmal performance of escort fighters no matter tech gap. Current ones are nothing more than ablative armor



Lecivius -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/18/2019 12:56:16 PM)

Just for perspective, German pilots were above British spitfires for most of the war. British strategy was to break into the German fighters as they came down, and then use their own maneuverability. I know this happened through '43, and I think through most of '44.



Disco Duck -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/18/2019 5:23:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

Just for perspective, German pilots were above British spitfires for most of the war. British strategy was to break into the German fighters as they came down, and then use their own maneuverability. I know this happened through '43, and I think through most of '44.


I remember a story about British Fighters climbing to meet the diving German aircraft. Just before contact they would level out under the German fighters so the the German fighters would dive past.




Lecivius -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/18/2019 6:40:49 PM)

Johnny Johnson wrote, in Wing Commander, that they would fly in formation watching German fighters above them, and calmly calling 'break' as the Germans dove on them. That takes big brass ones, IMHO, to do on a daily basis. His anecdote for that story was they were flying along, watching a couple of Huns above, when somebody cried out "break, Dogsbody!" (Dogsbody was the wing's call sign). The whole wing scattered. Someone got their tail busted [8D]



witpqs -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/18/2019 7:02:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

I do have to say though, that it is more than a bit unrealistic.

...

In a way, this simulates the advantage of better altitude performance, but taken as a representation WW2 air combat - it is drastically unrealistic.

Brian,

IMO the problem is in interpreting the altitudes literally. If you think in terms of the numbers being metaphors of the relationships between the various airframes the problem disappears.



BillBrown -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/18/2019 7:09:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

I do have to say though, that it is more than a bit unrealistic.

...

In a way, this simulates the advantage of better altitude performance, but taken as a representation WW2 air combat - it is drastically unrealistic.

Brian,

IMO the problem is in interpreting the altitudes literally. If you think in terms of the numbers being metaphors of the relationships between the various airframes the problem disappears.


Totally agree, JWE stated many times that most if not all of the values in the database should not be seen as absolute values, they depended on how they were actually used in the programming.



John B. -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/18/2019 7:41:52 PM)

I've just had experience with low level layered CAP against Americans over Palembang in March 1944 where the result against strato sweeps was very satisfactory (the losses were about even with P-38-Js taking very heavy losses). I agree with GetAssista, based on my experience with the game, escorts are better than nothing but don't really seem to offer much protection to bombers. Perhaps this is to mirror distant escorts (aka sweeps) was more effective than close escort tactics?



Big B -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/19/2019 2:04:59 AM)

Just to keep the discussion alive a bit longer - looking for more imput -
I have read all comments, and I have to say that I disagree with those championing multi-level CAP.

What I have seen over and over in PBEM; The fastest aircraft with the best ceiling (First KI-44 Tojo clearing the air,then the P-38 is introduced) absolutely dominates all air combat....bar none.

IF a fighter is Faster And Flies Higher than the available opposition - it massacres ALL fighter opponents.
The LONE Caveat is that - after killing ALL fighter opposition, IF the bombers are 20,000 feet lower - the bombers survive.

So, After loosing all fighter support, the bombers get through...ONCE.

Repeat the process the next day, and put an additional squadron on low-altitude CAP = Bombers destroyed on the next raid.

Given this sequence of events, over One Week - the Air War over a theater is forever changed.

Going back to my original point - perhaps it would be better if all fighters could operate in at least the same altitude?



Lokasenna -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/19/2019 2:40:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Just to keep the discussion alive a bit longer - looking for more imput -
I have read all comments, and I have to say that I disagree with those championing multi-level CAP.

What I have seen over and over in PBEM; The fastest aircraft with the best ceiling (First KI-44 Tojo clearing the air,then the P-38 is introduced) absolutely dominates all air combat....bar none.

IF a fighter is Faster And Flies Higher than the available opposition - it massacres ALL fighter opponents.
The LONE Caveat is that - after killing ALL fighter opposition, IF the bombers are 20,000 feet lower - the bombers survive.

So, After loosing all fighter support, the bombers get through...ONCE.

Repeat the process the next day, and put an additional squadron on low-altitude CAP = Bombers destroyed on the next raid.

Given this sequence of events, over One Week - the Air War over a theater is forever changed.

Going back to my original point - perhaps it would be better if all fighters could operate in at least the same altitude?


This is one occurrence.

The bolded part is not my experience, across hundreds of turns where these sorts of combats have happened. I will say that I am not quite the champion of the lower layered CAP as a viable counter to max altitude sweeps that others around the forum are, as my experience with it (across several games) is much more mixed and so I think it is far more dependent upon individual game parameters (how good are your pilots, how good are mine). For example, ask Bullwinkle (or now obvert) about the P-47 pools in my current late war Japan game. It was faster and higher altitude than all the Japanese fighters available, and yet it maybe traded 1.25:1 at best (from memory). Why? Because of luck/circumstance (which of us had which units set to do what mission and where/when) and because of the quality of the pilots I employed to combat the P-47 sweeps.



Chickenboy -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/19/2019 4:15:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DanSez

Just for maintaining 'historic flavor' I tend to recommend a 3 tiered cap to reflect the rise of service ceiling and increased capabilities as the war progressed

1941/1942 Top altitude 25k
1943/1944 Top altitude 30k
1945/1946 Top altitude 35k

easy to remember, easy to set

some people don't like any rules, I am sure you will hear from them soon




Something akin to this is a HR in my games too. With a further reminder that only recon planes are granted exception to high flying (but that's not a fighter sweep, is it?).

One of my Allied PBEM partners' (Joseph-aka 'SqzMyLemon') ongoing beefs with the high altitude uber-sweep involved the handcuffing of the lower CAP to be forced to accept any combat. IRL, fighters flying low CAP could have refused combat if they found themselves in a poor tactical environment. The game mandates engagement in an unfriendly engagement envelope and applies the requisite hard-coded bonuses for those at superior altitude.

Better to omit this silliness and the silly ahistoric workarounds altogether by homogenizing sweep altitude max settings. In a HR if necessary.



Lokasenna -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/19/2019 5:41:46 PM)

Except that the lower altitude CAP is not necessarily at a disadvantage...



DanSez -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/19/2019 8:22:49 PM)


Even with the ceiling heights, I face off P-38 and occasional P-40K sweeps at the upper limit with stacked lower fighters.

Sometimes the Allies do very well, sometimes I take out a chunk of his planes. I do worse when he chooses to sweep a base where I have 1 model of fighter that is doing both cap and escort duties (usually at 10-12k).

What I have found is that it depends on force composition and pilot experience which is dictated by what is available. Getting the right models and altitudes is like a cook scrambling to whip up the family's favorite reciepe when company shows up unexpectedly.

About the closest I can come up to this voodoo. Trimming the altitudes a bit is a small sacrifice if both players can extend and enjoy the battle.






durnedwolf -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/20/2019 12:50:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

Just to keep the discussion alive a bit longer - looking for more imput -
I have read all comments, and I have to say that I disagree with those championing multi-level CAP.

What I have seen over and over in PBEM; The fastest aircraft with the best ceiling (First KI-44 Tojo clearing the air,then the P-38 is introduced) absolutely dominates all air combat....bar none.

IF a fighter is Faster And Flies Higher than the available opposition - it massacres ALL fighter opponents.
The LONE Caveat is that - after killing ALL fighter opposition, IF the bombers are 20,000 feet lower - the bombers survive.

So, After loosing all fighter support, the bombers get through...ONCE.

Repeat the process the next day, and put an additional squadron on low-altitude CAP = Bombers destroyed on the next raid.

Given this sequence of events, over One Week - the Air War over a theater is forever changed.

Going back to my original point - perhaps it would be better if all fighters could operate in at least the same altitude?


This is one occurrence.

The bolded part is not my experience, across hundreds of turns where these sorts of combats have happened. I will say that I am not quite the champion of the lower layered CAP as a viable counter to max altitude sweeps that others around the forum are, as my experience with it (across several games) is much more mixed and so I think it is far more dependent upon individual game parameters (how good are your pilots, how good are mine). For example, ask Bullwinkle (or now obvert) about the P-47 pools in my current late war Japan game. It was faster and higher altitude than all the Japanese fighters available, and yet it maybe traded 1.25:1 at best (from memory). Why? Because of luck/circumstance (which of us had which units set to do what mission and where/when) and because of the quality of the pilots I employed to combat the P-47 sweeps.



I think another thing to factor in is that with the allies sweeping, they are losing more of their pilots. In this situation, with multiple days of sweeps by the allies, if you can bring in a a fighter group with pilots in the mid to upper 80s for experience, most of your pilots will live to see another day even if their aircraft get shot down. It's nice to have a fighter group or two of high-experience pilots available to surprise those sweepers with.

I've tried the layered CAP and I also see mixed results. Another option might be to bring in other fighter groups at nearby bases ala LRCAP. Numbers also make a difference. If you can field 3x the defensive fighters for a turn or two my WAG is that the allied player will start looking for some other target to plink at...





PaxMondo -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/20/2019 1:04:07 AM)

Low, layered CAP is effective against strato-sweeps. Read any of obverts AAR's in the past 3 years or any of his opponents. Yes caveats absolutely apply. Nates will not defeat P47's under any circumstance except extreme luck (which can happen). Pilot Exp is a factor. etc.

But, it does work and if you have managed your pilot inventories/exp levels appropriately in the early war, the counter-tactic is effective throughout the mid and late game as IJ.

Really not much more to say...



Disco Duck -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/20/2019 6:42:10 PM)

People forget how physically difficult it was to operate at these conditions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTSSTA9VAb0



Lokasenna -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/21/2019 10:03:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Disco Duck

People forget how physically difficult it was to operate at these conditions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTSSTA9VAb0


I don't think we forget, I think we just accept that the altitude the fighter is "operating" at is an abstraction.



rustysi -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/22/2019 8:12:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DanSez

Just for maintaining 'historic flavor' I tend to recommend a 3 tiered cap to reflect the rise of service ceiling and increased capabilities as the war progressed

1941/1942 Top altitude 25k
1943/1944 Top altitude 30k
1945/1946 Top altitude 35k

easy to remember, easy to set

some people don't like any rules, I am sure you will hear from them soon




Something akin to this is a HR in my games too. With a further reminder that only recon planes are granted exception to high flying (but that's not a fighter sweep, is it?).

One of my Allied PBEM partners' (Joseph-aka 'SqzMyLemon') ongoing beefs with the high altitude uber-sweep involved the handcuffing of the lower CAP to be forced to accept any combat. IRL, fighters flying low CAP could have refused combat if they found themselves in a poor tactical environment. The game mandates engagement in an unfriendly engagement envelope and applies the requisite hard-coded bonuses for those at superior altitude.

Better to omit this silliness and the silly ahistoric workarounds altogether by homogenizing sweep altitude max settings. In a HR if necessary.


+1

With the caveat that I prefer these altitudes.

42 20k.
43 25k
44 31k

Not much different.



Big B -> RE: Concerning High Altitude Fighter Sweeps (3/27/2019 4:29:58 AM)

Ok, thank you everyone for your input.
What I decided was this;
Instead of imposing mandatory ceilings - that would correspond to realistic altitude ceilings - data-wise, I decided to expand a bit on ceilings of aircraft.
As several have said - "don't get hung up on numbers, let it work as an abstract of altitude performance" - what I decided to do was stretch ceilings for some aircraft to let them fly and fight at slightly higher altitudes than book numbers, so essentially we don't have a situation where some aircraft (fighters only) are restricted to altitudes in the 20'000's while others operate in the 30'000's.
In reality all aircraft operated fighter missions at max 25,000-29,000. But now, all can operate at 32,000 to 40,000 depending on the model and year... the ultimate in disregarding real ceilings.
Some, the best high altitude fighters can fly a bit higher than others that are older in design - but altitude has been equalized.

This should negate the need for House Rules, and faithfully recreate capabilities.

B



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