Polish OOB (Full Version)

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ASDN -> Polish OOB (5/15/2000 3:51:00 AM)

I find some mistakes in Polish OOB. 1. Classification mistakes:[\b] R-35 & T-70 as Airborne IFV, FT-17 as SP-ATG, R-35 (L) as Heavy Tank, TK, T-34 (all versions) as Cruiser Tank (TK should be Light Tank) TKS nkm as Command Tank (maybe right) wz.34(37mm) as Scout Car but wz. 34 as Armored Car ?!? LWP Rifle Squad as Guerilla Forces ?!? 2. Pictures [\b] 7TP "dw" has the 7TP "jw" picture 3. Armor:[\b] 7TP (all versions) should have FH slope halved, TK & TKS (all versions) should have RH slope about 50 (as the FH slope) wz. 34 (all version) has too thick armor (should be 6-8 mm), wz. 29 has too thin armor (FH should be 2mm thicker). I hope it hepls.



Jon Grasham -> (5/15/2000 4:08:00 AM)

not sure if the same applies here, but more often than not, the unit classifications are what they are to make the unit in question only appear in certain formation types. You will find many nations with units ID's as something that seems strange for what it is, but that is usually the reason.



Paul Vebber -> (5/15/2000 4:22:00 AM)

Thanks for the info - Many minor country tanks are difficult ot find data for... Yes, the unit classes are used to make units appear in the right formations. Some can be fixed, others are a remnant of trying to do higher fidelity OOBs, in the "generic" structures of SP3.



kkrull -> (5/15/2000 1:42:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by ASDN: I find some mistakes in Polish OOB. ...
Thanks. I like to play German campaigns starting in '39, so I have been making a number of refinements to the Polish OOB that I think improve gameplay. Primarily, it is bringing pricing in line with other OOB's (especially infantry for 19 men platoons for 7.) For those interested in updating their own OOBs, below are the values that I used: (includes items from ASDN's post that impact playability in early war.) Not extensively tested (and I havn't tested ASDN's changes at all), but I ended up with much more balanced engagements vs Poland in infantry heavy battles using these values. Polish: - : : () 1 - 7TP jw.: FH Slope: 19 (was 38) From ASDN. 20 – TKS nkm: RH Slope: 52 (was 0) From ASDN. 21 – TKS: RH Slope: 52 (was 0) From ASDN. 23 – wz 34: Armor Thickness: FH: 6 (was 12), SH: 6 (was 12), RH: 4 (was 8), FT: 8 (was 16), ST: 6 (was 12), RT: 6 (was 12), Top: 2 (was 4) From ASDN. 24 – wz 34 (37mm): Armor Thickness: FH: 6 (was 12), SH: 6 (was 12), RH: 4 (was 8), FT: 9 (was 18), ST: 6 (was 12), RT: 6 (was 12), Top: 2 (was 4) From ASDN. 34: 25mm ATG Cost: 9 (was 7), Speed: 5 (was 0) (roughly German 37mm cost) 35: 37mm ATG Cost: 9 (was 7), Speed: 2 (was 0) (roughly German 37mm cost, US 37mm can move....) 36 – 2pdr AT Gun: Cost: 17 (was 7) Men: 5 (was 4) (Match UK) 38 – 6pdr AT Gun: Cost: 28 (was 10) (Match UK) 39 – 6pdr AT Gun: Cost: 38 (was 13) (Match UK) 43 – PO 75mm wz.97 IG: Cost: 12 (was 5), (Match UK cost of 75mm FH) 44 – PO 25pdr OQF GH: Cost: 40 (was 17), (Match UK cost of 25pdr FH) 45 – PO 50mm Mort Squad: Cost: 6 (was 3), Speed: 9 (was 4) (Match Soviet cost of 50mm Mortar) 46 – PO 3in Mort Squad: Cost: 14 (was 5) Speed: 2 (was 3) (Match UK cost) 47 – PO 81mm Mort Squad: Cost: 20 (was 5) Speed: 2, (was 3) (Match Soviet cost of 82mm Mortar) 48 – PO 4.2in Mort Squad: Cost: 28 (was 7) (Match UK cost) 49 – PO wz.30 HMG: Cost: 7 (was 5) (Match Soviet cost of 7.62 Maxim HMG) 50 – PO Vickers HMG : Cost: 8 (was 5), Speed: 7 (was 6) (Match UK cost) 51 – PO Infantry AT : Cost: 6 (was 2), Speed 10 (Based on Soviet #138) 52 – PO Infantry AT : Cost: 8 (was 2), Speed 10 (Based on Soviet #138, plus 2 pts for radio) 53 – PO Infantry AT : Cost: 8 (was 2), Speed 10 (Based on Soviet #138, plus 2 pts for radio) 54 – PO Rifle Sqd (19 Men) Cost: 18 (was 7) (roughly Soviet cost, plus premium for 19 men) 55 – PO Rifle Sqd (19 Men) Cost: 18 (was 7) (roughly Soviet cost, plus premium for 19 men) 56 – PO Rifle Sqd (10 Men) Cost: 18 (was 7) (roughly Soviet cost for year) 57 – PO Rifle Sqd (10 Men) Cost: 18 (was 7) (roughly Soviet cost for year) 58 – PO Airborne Sqd (10 Men) Cost: 24 (was 10?Forgot to write it before changing?) (roughly Soviet cost for year) 59 – LWP Rifle Sqd (10 Men) Cost: 18 (was 10) 60 – LWP SMG gunners (10 Men) Cost: 24 (was 10) 61 – PO Engineer Sqd (10 Men) Cost: 30 (was 15) (Soviet cost) 62 – PO Engineer Sqd (10 Men) Cost: 34 (was 15) (Soviet cost) 91 – PO 46mm Mort Squad: Cost: 6 (was 3), Speed: 9 (was 4) (Match Soviet cost of 50mm Mortar) 93 – TKS: RH Slope: 52 (was 0) From ASDN. 94 – 7-TP “dw”: FH Slope: 19 (was 38) From ASDN. 96 – wz.29 Ursus: FH Thinkness:10 (was 8) From ASDN. If you are playing later war with Poland, I would recommend redoing the pricing of AFVs. For example: UK: VC Firefly - Cost 137[B]. Poland: Sherman Firefly - [B]Cost 50. Let me know if you have any comments or suggestions - I am not an expert on Polish WW-II military equipment/effectiveness - I ended up heavily outnumbered in my first SP:WaW game, and spent the time comparing a couple of OOBs to find out why....



ASDN -> (5/20/2000 3:54:00 AM)

Hi guys, I didn't expected so much response [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I took my corrections from Polish cartoons miniatures so they should be very accurate. When I started comparing 7TP FH slope with PzKpfw 38(t) FH slope (10 in W@W database) I noticed they are pretty the same - or maybe 7TP should has slightly higher as the driver part of hull was more slopped. With TK series is another problem, because the cross-section of the not-revolving "turret" in TK series is even bigger than the cross-section of its hull. I don't know how the turret/hull chance of hit is calculated by the W@W, but PzJgd I has the same problem. And for kkrull (are you Polish?): if you are corecting costs of Polish units take this as the rule of thumb: the Polish units cost with English equipment should be close to the cost of their UK counterparts (I didn't check it, but I suppose that Polish paratroopers were equiped by English (1st Polish Para Brigade participaded (especially in heavy losses) in Market-Garden) so don't match their cost to Soviets). Polish units with Soviet equipment should cost the same as the Soviet counterparts. LWP unit was the Polish regular units (as 1st Polish Infantry Division and others), which fought together with the Soviets - they had the same equipment but could have slightly higher morale when they fought in Poland (in borders before 1939). What about equipment before 1939 ? I don't know, but roughly: there were many HMG & guns & mortars so they could be a bit cheaper then Russians (except of arty of course - Soviets had special belief in Arty - now US has it ;-). I can send the numbers I found, but I have only German (Fall Weiss) numbers to compare with. Polish planes should be costly as they were not many. And one question to the Admin: I've seen (on the Polish net) some pictures of Polish equipment which are missing in the W@W. Are you interested in putting them into W@W?



Paul Vebber -> (5/20/2000 3:58:00 AM)

If you guys want to help out in an "official" capacity - drop me a line!



Greg -> (5/21/2000 1:42:00 AM)

1. Pictures: - 1,5 Citroen (wrong picture) - Polski Fiat 621 (wrong picture - picture of 1 1/2 tons truck) - wz.30 HMG (wrong picture of Hotchiss - wz. 30 was water-cooled) - LWP Rifle Squad (wrong picture - picture of french-type infantry) - 65 mm wz.06 IG (65 mm? first time I hear about such a caliber among Polish weapons) - 155 wz.17 (wrong picture - picture of Long Tom) - 46 mm Mortar Squad (AFAIK it wasn't a mortar, but grenade launcher) - 75 mm wz. 02/26FG (this gun shows in weapon encyclopaedia twice) - 7 TP dw - 'dwuwiezowy' two-turrets (picture of 'jw' - 'jednowiezowy' one-turret) - 100 mm M 14/19 Bt (wrong picture - picture of German 105 mm) - LWP Infantry AT armed with PTRD (wrong picture - PIAT) - 75 mm wz.36 AA (wrong picture - 88 AA) Another pieces has no pictures at all: PO Wagon, C2P AA Tracktor, C4P Tracktor, PzInz. 302, Ursus wz. 29, Vickers 6 tons jw (and dw), P 23 Karas, P 11c, Lublin RXIII, wz. 18/24 SPAA, Taczanka wz.30 I'll try to find some pictures of them. 2. In battle generator I could not chose R-35 for Polish Player. 3. While in (POlish) weapon encyclopaedia you point with mouse cursor on NEXT button - on left side a picture of Fort shows. 4. German Command Car (Utility Vehicle) has PaK 38 picture attached to it. 5. During a gameplay sometimes there's no chance to see moving range of a unit without having to move it at least one hex. Pozdrawiam Greg



ASDN -> (5/21/2000 3:34:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Greg: 1. Pictures: (...) - LWP Rifle Squad (wrong picture - picture of french-type infantry)
All LWP squads are wrong. They should have pictures of their Soviets equivalent. And of course more picture mistakes, etc :P Better let's find the correct pictures and send them to Matrix Games, OK ?
quote:

- 65 mm wz.06 IG (65 mm? first time I hear about such a caliber among Polish weapons)
Check at www.kampania.px.pl [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] There is a picture of air-cooled Polish HMG too [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
quote:

3. While in (POlish) weapon encyclopaedia you point with mouse cursor on NEXT button - on left side a picture of Fort shows.
It is working that way for all nations. Polish are not favored [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img]
quote:

5. During a gameplay sometimes there's no chance to see moving range of a unit without having to move it at least one hex.
Turn off the Command Rules. Or set objectives for formations. Or RTFM [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Pozdrawiam ASDN[/QUOTE] [This message has been edited by ASDN (edited 05-20-2000).]



kkrull -> (5/21/2000 8:04:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by ASDN: Hi guys, And for kkrull (are you Polish?): if you are corecting costs of Polish units take this as the rule of thumb:
Nope - German ancestry. Although technically, I think some of those ancestors lived in what is now Poland, but.... The main reason I made the changes is that I like to start off playing early war Germans with an Infantry heavy force, and did not want to be so outnumbered. I have not had any time to play the game or edit the OOBs in a while, and I probably wont for a few weeks.



Dusabre -> (5/22/2000 7:46:00 AM)

I've been doing some anecdoctal (living grandparents, an officer and the daughter of an officer) and textbook research on Polish units, some things I would note: a) Polish infantry units in 1939 generally had very high morale, certainly equivalent to German units, good training though perhaps not as good as German training, but were lacking in equipment. Cavalry units were elite and had extremely good morale. Tactical level officers were also good at their jobs. b) After 1939, two types of Polish units should be differentiated, western and eastern based troops. The western troops had travelled via the Soviet Union (Poland was split up between the Reich and USSR) in 1941 or had escaped through Rumania and Hungary in 1939 (after the Soviet invasion hot on the heels of the German one and when the strategic situation was hopeless, orders were given to Polish army units to make their way out of Poland as best as they could). c) These "western" units consisted of trained, experienced and highly motivated soldiers (they had escaped to continue their war) and had a high concentration of officers (who did not want to fall into Soviet hands). As Falaise, Arnhem and Monte Cassino showed these troops showed that they could toe-to-toe with the best German SS and Wehrmacht units and could be counted on in very difficult conditions. Their morale, training and experience were very high. After 1944 these troops were reinforced by Polish-born deserters who had been pressed into German service. They were similarly armed and organised as Commonwealth units. d) The "eastern" units were formed after the invasion of the Soviet Union and consisted of those soldiers who had been captured in 1939 and had decided not to leave the Soviet Union before 1941. The Soviets had murdered most of officers that they had captured. These soldiers were also very tenacious in early battles (Guards equivalent) but were badly equipped by the Russians and used rather callously. Two armies were raised by 1945. Though consisting of trained soldiers at first, after Poland's borders were reached in 1943/1944, volunteers (many of who had been interned by the Germans or had been used as forced labour and were in poor physical condition or had no previous military experience) began joining these units. Morale was still very high though quality and experience detoriated as losses mounted. e) Partisan units (Armia Krajowa) were well-led, extremely well organised, highly trained, highly motivated and badly armed. Many ex-soldiers served in these units (the Polish army had been large :-). As an example, during the 2-month long Warsaw Uprising German losses to extremely badly armed opponents were high, the Germans made few gains in street-fighting and only massive artillery and air strikes, combined with Soviet inactivity (the Red Army was sitting across the river that divides Warsaw) succeeded in breaking the uprising. These uprising units could easily be classified as regular infantry (high organisation, training and regular tactics) apart from their lack of weaponry. Hope that helps with scenario design. [This message has been edited by Dusabre (edited 05-21-2000).]



Greg -> (5/24/2000 1:02:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: If you guys want to help out in an "official" capacity - drop me a line!
Perhaps there is a chance we could prepare Polish OOB - with proper research and picture material. What deadline criteria we should fulfill to make yoo interested with distributing this in a patch? Of course - if such possibility could exist. Pozdrawiam Greg PS. Is there anyone interested with participating?



Paul Vebber -> (5/24/2000 2:09:00 AM)

If you are interested in participating, a group is forming to work OOB improvement. Drop me your email and I will add you. We ahve an amazing enthusiam for the Polish it seems! Quite a few with a desire to help!



Guderian -> (5/24/2000 2:36:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Greg: Perhaps there is a chance we could prepare Polish OOB - with proper research and picture material. What deadline criteria we should fulfill to make yoo interested with distributing this in a patch? Of course - if such possibility could exist. Pozdrawiam Greg PS. Is there anyone interested with participating?
Count me in... Gud



Niuszy -> (5/24/2000 4:12:00 PM)

Originally posted by Greg: PS. Is there anyone interested with participating? Yes, of course. Z pozdrowieniami Niuszy



ASDN -> (5/24/2000 6:34:00 PM)

Hi guys, Gud & Niuszy if you want prepare Polish OOB let's do something. My proposition is : email to me as soon as you can so I will plan our work [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] If you think that someone else will be better coordinator please take up this task. I hope we can do something useful. Maybe Paul will set up the mailing list for for Polish OOB improvement team ?



Dusabre -> (5/27/2000 12:02:00 AM)

An excellent source of information on the 1939 Polish/German war and on Polish OOB with pics is at http://www.polishcampaign.w.pl Armor pics and post 1939 info (very useful list) can be found at: http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pol.htm http://www.kki.net.pl/mrmacia/ General information and pics http://www.kampania.px.pl/kamppl.htm Information on post 1939 forces: http://www.execulink.com/~jferenc/spkeng1.htm Dustin



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