Thunderstorms during CV combat (Full Version)

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Mevennos -> Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/5/2019 3:50:58 PM)

Hi, Myself and Kukudas are playing a PBEM Guadalcanal scenario.

Despite a few graphical glitches, the game has been very clean and free of issues. However this morning we had our very first CV combat. 5 IJN CVs vs 3 USN CVs.

AM Strikes saw Wasp sunk and Zuikaku heavily damaged.

PM Strikes were.... Odd to say the least. Out of over 100 bombers to strike at the USN carriers, only two hits were achieved, and both dealt almost no damage. The USN Carriers conducted an attack that resulted in the sinking of Ryujo, with Junyo being heavily damaged among others.

Turns out that during the PM, the USN CVs were in a hex affected by Thunderstorms. This seems very wrong, how can CVs conduct air ops during a T-storm? I check the manual, and I am inclined to believe that it is a bug or glitch of some sort because the manual states.

7.2.1.12 WEATHER AND ABORTED MISSIONS
Offensive Missions can be aborted after all preparations have been made, but prior to take-off,
due to bad weather over the air unit’s base or over the intended target. Hexes affected by bad
weather blocks any air units from launching an airstrike from the hex, and it blocks any target
in the hex from being attacked.


This implies that the PM air strikes should not have occurred, with no air combat taking place at all. The USN CVs were at a huge advantage in this case, and at the very least the IJN strike should have been cancelled, giving the IJN player more fighters for CAP purposes instead of forcing the strike into T-storm conditions to suffer heavy losses and do no damage.

In case it is helpful, we have Advanced Weather Effects turned ON.

We are both in agreement that this seems to be some sort of bug, but we want to see what others have to say or think about the issue.



GetAssista -> RE: Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/5/2019 3:57:22 PM)

Thunderstorms does not mean whole 40 mile hex will be covered at all times. Hiding in rain squalls was a standard CV tactics in WWII. You launch your planes and hide to escape the incoming raid which ETA you can get from recon. Then you speed back into the open to pick up your returning planes.

In general a lot of luck wrt weather is involved when a CV battle occurs in the game. Just like it was in reality



btd64 -> RE: Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/5/2019 4:04:49 PM)

Were opps loses off the mark? Abnormal?....GP



BBfanboy -> RE: Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/5/2019 4:39:20 PM)

There are other factors in the success of the US forces. For one, they had effective radar while Japanese radar for the period would be poor quality, if they had any at all. That gives the US forces much better warning of the raid and a better chance to get CAP up and vectored properly to disrupt it.

On the IJN side, if the CAP was set to more than one hex distance, it would be dispersed around a much bigger circle with few in position to defend when the raid came.

US AA is much better than the IJN - even the maligned 1.1" AA was better than the IJN 25mm. If the US CLAAs or fast BBs were present they would cause a lot of damage and disruption to the attacks.

If all 5 IJN carriers were in one TF there would have been coordination penalties for too many aircraft in a strike.

If the IJN carriers had been flying strike missions the day before the battle, they would have fatigue issues by the PM strike on the next day.

IJN damage control sucks. Fires that the US carriers would put out can easily overcome an IJN carrier.

SBDs carry 1000 lb. bombs compared to the Val's 550 lb. bomb.

US aircraft were more rugged so they could shake off minor damage and finish their attacks. IJN aircraft tended to burn when hit. That also leads to US pilots surviving and returning with an experience increase from each mission while the IJN pilots die and get replaced by half-trained rookies.



bradfordkay -> RE: Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/5/2019 4:51:04 PM)

Admittedly the manual states that extreme weather in a hex blocks any strike mission from taking off, but my impression over the years is that it results in a much lower chance of the mission happening - not preventing it completely.



Mevennos -> RE: Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/5/2019 5:34:48 PM)

GetAssista - Right nobody is trying to say that rain squalls weren't a thing, but the argument being made is that per the game's manual it states bad weather in hex will block attacks going both ways. In hex weather, being defined in this case, as 'Thunderstorms'. Weather in the game doesn't get worse than 'Thunderstorms'. Plus rain squalls are pop-up thunderstorms that occur on a otherwise calm, clear day that last only a brief period of time, and I do not believe that this is what the game is portraying when it describes in hex weather as Thunderstorms.

btd64 - Ops losses were abysmal for both sides, but it is hard to say what was caused due to overcrowding from damaged carriers, due to damage to each aircraft, and genuine losses to air frames that had nothing wrong.

BBfanboy - Right, everyone who knows what happened in WW2 can agree that historically the USN had a upper hand. But that is side-stepping the primary issue being discussed. The discussion is based on whether, according to the game's own manual and ruleset, the strikes should have even occurred in the first place or not.

bradfordkay - This was a helpful response that will no doubt come up in the discussion between myself and Kukudas, thank you kindly sir.



pontiouspilot -> RE: Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/5/2019 5:48:41 PM)

I wouldn’t assume a glitch. Bad luck/bad roll a more likely explanation. If you have a few turns saved try running it again.



BillBrown -> RE: Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/5/2019 6:37:28 PM)

One thing to note is that the quoted rule, says that bad weather can effect air operations. If it does then both incoming and outgoing are affected.
So, if the die roll came up that the thunderstorms did not eliminate air ops, then both can fly.



bradfordkay -> RE: Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/5/2019 7:03:02 PM)

I think that bad weather hexes get several different rolls: one is for whether a/c stationed there can fly offensive missions, another is whether float planes can operate at all, and another is whether a/c targeting that hex can find the target. I have seen cases where incoming attacks got through whereas outgoing ones never took off and vice versa. I have not tested this, it is just my impressions from playing this game engine over a period of nearly two decades.



geofflambert -> RE: Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/5/2019 7:05:52 PM)

I recently almost had a carrier battle where we were 120 miles apart and each saw the other but nothing happened. All the USN and IJN carriers were present. I had forgotten to give my carriers a react radius so they didn't move. He attacked targets in other hexes.



Lokasenna -> RE: Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/5/2019 7:06:52 PM)

If you mean that each incoming formation of aircraft in a strike has a roll for whether they can find the target, then yes. Weather that is severe enough can result in none of the strike finding the target.



HansBolter -> RE: Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/5/2019 7:26:31 PM)

It also sounds like you are playing with Advanced Weather Effects on.

This means weather can, and often will, differ between the morning and afternoon phases.

IMHO this adds a tremendous amount of flavor to the game in the form of unpredictability.



GetAssista -> RE: Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/5/2019 8:09:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mevennos
GetAssista - Right nobody is trying to say that rain squalls weren't a thing, but the argument being made is that per the game's manual it states bad weather in hex will block attacks going both ways. In hex weather, being defined in this case, as 'Thunderstorms'. Weather in the game doesn't get worse than 'Thunderstorms'. Plus rain squalls are pop-up thunderstorms that occur on a otherwise calm, clear day that last only a brief period of time, and I do not believe that this is what the game is portraying when it describes in hex weather as Thunderstorms.

Please give a link to the place where the manual says about bad weather in hex blocking attacks going both ways. I don't see any. The manual says that worse weather has greater chances of grounding the outcoming attack and not letting incoming planes find their targets.
Also, there are certainly air attacks happening into the Thunderstorm hex in the Game. Combat report will state the weather in the hex but bombing (and even torpedo attacks!) can commense anyway. It's just that planes have trouble hitting stuff.



anarchyintheuk -> RE: Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/5/2019 8:13:26 PM)

quote:

7.2.1.12 WEATHER AND ABORTED MISSIONS
Offensive Missions can be aborted after all preparations have been made, but prior to take-off,
due to bad weather over the air unit’s base or over the intended target. Hexes affected by bad
weather blocks any air units from launching an airstrike from the hex, and it blocks any target
in the hex from being attacked.


Quoted from his post. The sentences don't agree as to the effect of bad weather. Given past experience playing the game, I think the can in the first sentence controls as BillBrown mentions.



spence -> RE: Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/5/2019 10:47:26 PM)

Insofar as the whole game seems to revolve around probabilities it is not surprising that the effects of weather also a revolve around probability. Certainly not without historical precedent: the only reason HIJMS Zuikaku was not attacked at all by the US bombers at Coral Sea was because it was obscured by a rain squall/thunderstorm.



rustysi -> RE: Thunderstorms during CV combat (4/6/2019 5:33:21 PM)

Happened to Enterprise at Santa Cruz(?), where Hornet got hammered as a result.



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