Invading Hawaii (Full Version)

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George Patton -> Invading Hawaii (4/13/2019 8:24:47 AM)

I’ve never tried this before, but I’m wondering.

Is it worth it?



jdsrae -> RE: Invading Hawaii (4/13/2019 8:59:38 AM)

Depends on your reason for trying to capture it.
I’ve never tried it either as it doesn’t produce oil so there is no economic reason.
I’ve heard it can be done but it’s bloody.
Victory Points could be a reason.
It would need a huge commitment of troops, ships, airgroups, time, fuel and supplies which would slow down conquests elsewhere.
It could delay the allies if they had to take it back, assuming they would have to stop the daily VPs going to Japan while they held it.
So to be worth it the Japanese would then have to try and hold it for a reasonable period to impose delay and rack up VPs to offset any they lost trying to take it. Until the end of 43 or longer?
The allies could build up force on the west coast to take it back so it would delay them in the Pacific, but would they bypass it via Canton Island and SoPac?
Like the fish in the plastic bags at the end of Finding Nemo, once captured “now what?”.
Interested to hear from those who’ve either tried it or been on the receiving end.



Anachro -> RE: Invading Hawaii (4/13/2019 9:44:53 AM)

There have been past AARs that have done it, though I can't recall which at the moment. If I recall, the general consensus in those was that it was not worth it: it slows down Allied operations somewhat, but not enough to justify the cost to take and resupply the island. Allies can stage their invasions from the west coast.



JoV -> RE: Invading Hawaii (4/13/2019 12:37:32 PM)

Scenario 1 or 2? I have read AAR's where it has been done in Scenario 2, but not sure if I've seen it in Scenario 1. Would certainly take some balls in Scenario 1 imo [:D]

PH doesn't give oil, but there is the prospect of a massive supply/fuel haul to capture intact. I've never tried it though....

Here is one AAR where it was done http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3916032

Actual invasion is in here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3864684 That game is a really good read [&o]



George Patton -> RE: Invading Hawaii (4/13/2019 12:59:01 PM)

Scenario 1.
Thanks for the infos



spence -> RE: Invading Hawaii (4/13/2019 6:20:04 PM)

quote:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/pearlops.htm


The above link does not credit the Japanese with a very high probability of success in this venture.

Be that as it may I am curious about certain things in the AAR:

1) Did any Japanese Amphib TF benefit from the "magic move" to invade Hawaii?

2) The Japanese a/c losses seem low after the initial raid. Did they encounter CAP stacked at different altitudes in those raids?




erstad -> RE: Invading Hawaii (4/14/2019 2:53:27 AM)

quote:

It could delay the allies if they had to take it back, assuming they would have to stop the daily VPs going to Japan while they held it.


No daily VPs for bases. (It would arguably be nice if there were)



Anachro -> RE: Invading Hawaii (4/14/2019 3:06:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/pearlops.htm


The above link does not credit the Japanese with a very high probability of success in this venture.



There is a good analysis of a potential Midway amphibious assault in Shattered Sword that casts serious doubt on Japan's ability to take even that island. Given their lack of amphibious assault and ship-to-shore gun support capabilities or doctrine, Japan's ability to take Pearl historically also probably had highly dubious prospects, especially for the time frame they were considering for an invasion (mid-to-late '42).



Barb -> RE: Invading Hawaii (4/15/2019 9:21:43 AM)

In game terms - it could be done, especially in scen 2 and similar "beefed up" scenarios:

PROs:
Points earned by destroying defending planes, LCUs, ships fed by allies.
Delaying allied offensive through Central Pacific and somewhat South/Southwest Pacific.
Got some points by destroying ships scheduled to arrive at Pearl.

CONs:
Huge investments in ships, fuel, supplies, planes and LCUs for some time.
Big risks involved that it will eventually fail.
Garrison requirements (if you do not want to give it right back to the allies).
Slow down of the conquest within SRA.
Resources/Supply/Fuel to keep Hawaiian island supplied and active base.

Other effects:
Allies will probably route their main routes through Panama, move some of their weight to Burma, or use early reinforcements to get hold of Aleutians or try fortress Java or something similar.



Canoerebel -> RE: Invading Hawaii (4/15/2019 11:57:49 AM)

It's been done before multiple times. It's not even particularly hard for a Japanese player that knows exactly what he's doing.

It probably makes sense in only one case: The Japanese player is going for auto-victory by scoring strategic points vs. industry/shipping in the USA. In that case, the shipyard at Pearl can be an important asset to repair damaged ships and Pearl makes a useful refueling port.

To pull those things off, the Japanese player has to be set up from day one, halting supply/troop deliveries to Hawaii while also preparing to invade Canada and, from that point, implement strategic bombing missions against the USA (plus possible invading to take out industrial centers like Portland, thus harvesting all those unbuilt CVE points).

I don't think this has been accomplished, yet, for various reasons. In some games, the possibility didn't occur to the IJ player until too late in '42 to actually make it achievable. Panzerjagger Hortlund made an effort in a game against me years ago but I don't think he'd thought it through from the beginning, though I really sweated it for awhile. There was some interesting analysis from Alfred, Bullwinkle, et al. in my AAR that made me realize how scary an all-out assault would be by an experienced player who set out to do this the right way from day one.



pontiouspilot -> RE: Invading Hawaii (4/15/2019 7:00:12 PM)

It's possible but as stated it must occur early on. The resources needed would crimp other theatres of operation. Personally I think the Japanese are better off going "all in" in china.



Disco Duck -> RE: Invading Hawaii (4/16/2019 7:34:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JoV

Scenario 1 or 2? I have read AAR's where it has been done in Scenario 2, but not sure if I've seen it in Scenario 1. Would certainly take some balls in Scenario 1 imo [:D]

PH doesn't give oil, but there is the prospect of a massive supply/fuel haul to capture intact. I've never tried it though....

Here is one AAR where it was done http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3916032

Actual invasion is in here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3864684 That game is a really good read [&o]



Thank you for the link. I really enjoyed it.



inqistor -> RE: Invading Hawaii (4/21/2019 8:32:05 PM)

There are some really big guns in PH forts, and you really can't destroy enough supply at Base, to make them short on supply. And there will be most of US airforce there, so you have to go directly. Landing at nearby islands hardly will earn you any advantage, except for port for damaged ships.



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