April 18th, 1943

April 18th, 1943 (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition

Message

LargeSlowTarget -> April 18th, 1943 (4/18/2019 5:59:52 PM)
https://youtu.be/h4-TtvSBYOw

btd64 -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/18/2019 6:08:50 PM)
Big day in the Pacific for the Allies. He was a great man....GP

Yaab -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/18/2019 6:39:48 PM)
[image]https://i.postimg.cc/kGCJkwc2/1909-E2-F7-F1-BE4966-A69-F9-B47-F08-FDAE5.jpg[/image]

spence -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/19/2019 12:21:18 AM)
Certainly that clip was the ideal as far as what happened on that Japanese bomber on April 18, 1943. I do not doubt that Admiral Yamamoto behaved in a very Japanese way and accepted his fate. I sometimes wonder what he may have done if he had been confronted with the Emperor's acceptance of the Allied terms on 14/15 August 1945.

Anachro -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/19/2019 1:08:19 AM)
The clip misrepresents the occurrence, no doubt so as to play up Yamamoto stoically accepting his fate, which goes well with Japanese sentiments; the actual autopsy on Yamamoto's body concluded he died from a bullet wound to the head while the plane was still in the air, inflicted by a P-38.

Kursk1943 -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/19/2019 6:13:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Anachro The clip misrepresents the occurrence, no doubt so as to play up Yamamoto stoically accepting his fate, which goes well with Japanese sentiments; the actual autopsy on Yamamoto's body concluded he died from a bullet wound to the head while the plane was still in the air, inflicted by a P-38. Cited from "Fading Victory", the Diary of Admiral Matome Ugaki, Yamamoto's Chief of Staff, who was shot dowm in the second plane and survived severely wounded, page 359: "The body of the commander in chief was found on the seat outside of the plane still gripping his sword. It hadn't decomposted yet und was said to be in a state of great dignity. He must really have been superhuman. A postmortem made while his body was being carried on a subchaser found two piercing machine-gun bullet wounds in his lower jaw and shoulder. Most probably he was killed instantly while in the air."

Anachro -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/19/2019 12:49:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kursk194 Cited from "Fading Victory", the Diary of Admiral Matome Ugaki, Yamamoto's Chief of Staff, who was shot dowm in the second plane and survived severely wounded, page 359: "The body of the commander in chief was found on the seat outside of the plane still gripping his sword. It hadn't decomposted yet und was said to be in a state of great dignity. He must really have been superhuman. A postmortem made while his body was being carried on a subchaser found two piercing machine-gun bullet wounds in his lower jaw and shoulder. Most probably he was killed instantly while in the air." Yes, exactly.

Yaab -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/19/2019 2:04:18 PM)
Yamamoto was a clutch player. Too bad he airballed at the buzzer.

LeeChard -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/20/2019 12:15:59 PM)
I never took to heart Ugaki's story of the 'repose' of Yamamoto's body. I believe he was cleaning up the tale to honor his commander and friend and for the people of Japan. It's hard to believe anybody aboard an aircraft that hits the jungle at well over 200 MPH is going to be found in any shape but horrible.

Kursk1943 -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/21/2019 7:08:22 AM)
I believe Ugaki's story, because I think that he wrote his daily diary without the thought that it could be published sometimes. He wrote a lot about his personal feelings and attitudes and gave very frank situational reports. Why should he then clean up the tale? This doesn't correspond with the whole rest of the diary. Besides, even if I think that Ugaki is honest, he could only write what was told him by others about how Yamamoto was found (he was found by a rescue team of the Japanese Army). Ugaki therefore wasn't an eyewitness. And if you examine the history of aircraft crashes you will find lots of examples of dead people found with appearingly unharmed bodies while other were pulverized. Nothing uncommon.

LeeChard -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/21/2019 1:44:05 PM)
You make several good points and I would rather believe Ugaki's story than not. I look upon Yamamoto as one of the pre-war visionary's I admire. I'm not sure his death actually had any effect on the length of the war but putting myself in the shoes of the guys that made the decision to approve the mission I don't see how they could have justified not giving the go-ahead. quote: ORIGINAL: Kursk1943 I believe Ugaki's story, because I think that he wrote his daily diary without the thought that it could be published sometimes. He wrote a lot about his personal feelings and attitudes and gave very frank situational reports. Why should he then clean up the tale? This doesn't correspond with the whole rest of the diary. Besides, even if I think that Ugaki is honest, he could only write what was told him by others about how Yamamoto was found (he was found by a rescue team of the Japanese Army). Ugaki therefore wasn't an eyewitness. And if you examine the history of aircraft crashes you will find lots of examples of dead people found with appearingly unharmed bodies while other were pulverized. Nothing uncommon.

Anachro -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/21/2019 6:10:46 PM)
I'm more inclined to believe Ugaki's story about the final repose, though I have no doubt there are elements of theatrics to it and he probably tells/writes it in a more flattering way than it would appear in reality. As for my remarks, they are on the depiction in the movie, which shows Yamamoto with no head wound and very much alive as the plane goes down, stoically going down "with the ship."

Chickenboy -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/23/2019 3:22:18 PM)
Bushido nonsense. High energy crashes into triple canopy forest do horrible things to human bodies. So do .50 slugs plunging through a calvarium at high velocity. Brain matter, bone, ejected ocular orbits, blood and connective tissue would be spattered all over the aircraft. Then, on impact, limbs would separate, bones would be atomized and gelatinized. Any foreign objects (e.g., tree branches) would doubtless keep some of this material from the forest floor and traumatize it further. In repose? Nonsense. Clutching his ceremonial sword? Don't make me laugh. His body would have deformed as any other body would have when acted upon by the extraordinary forces exerted upon it. Don't glorify his biological reality: he got turned into a pile of goo like anyone else shot in the head and crashing through the jungle at high speed.

Zorch -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/23/2019 3:37:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy Bushido nonsense. High energy crashes into triple canopy forest do horrible things to human bodies. So do .50 slugs plunging through a calvarium at high velocity. Brain matter, bone, ejected ocular orbits, blood and connective tissue would be spattered all over the aircraft. Then, on impact, limbs would separate, bones would be atomized and gelatinized. Any foreign objects (e.g., tree branches) would doubtless keep some of this material from the forest floor and traumatize it further. In repose? Nonsense. Clutching his ceremonial sword? Don't make me laugh. His body would have deformed as any other body would have when acted upon by the extraordinary forces exerted upon it. Don't glorify his biological reality: he got turned into a pile of goo like anyone else shot in the head and crashing through the jungle at high speed. +1

rockmedic109 -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/23/2019 10:58:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy Bushido nonsense. High energy crashes into triple canopy forest do horrible things to human bodies. So do .50 slugs plunging through a calvarium at high velocity. Brain matter, bone, ejected ocular orbits, blood and connective tissue would be spattered all over the aircraft. Then, on impact, limbs would separate, bones would be atomized and gelatinized. Any foreign objects (e.g., tree branches) would doubtless keep some of this material from the forest floor and traumatize it further. In repose? Nonsense. Clutching his ceremonial sword? Don't make me laugh. His body would have deformed as any other body would have when acted upon by the extraordinary forces exerted upon it. Don't glorify his biological reality: he got turned into a pile of goo like anyone else shot in the head and crashing through the jungle at high speed. Everything I've seen the last 31 years on an ambulance backs this up. I've seen some horrendous things. I've seen people looking relatively intact {They weren't} after extreme trauma. But go back to Sir Isaac Newton....an object in motion stays in motion. 200mph is a lot of motion. Cut it in half {I always do when someone tells me how fast a vehicle was}, 100mph is STILL a lot of motion. Sounds dramatic and makes him heroic.....which indicates propaganda {can't blame Japan for this, either}. I suspect reality is quite a bit more gruesome.

warspite1 -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/24/2019 4:26:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chickenboy ejected ocular orbits warspite1 I love it when you talk dirrrty!

Kursk1943 -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/24/2019 11:45:43 AM)
Just to cite some more of the "bushido bullshit" of Ugaki: "The first plane was staggering southward, just brushing the jungle top with reduced speed, emitting black smoke and flame". So perhaps no sudden impact at 200mph and what about losing additional speed when hitting the treetops? Ugaki's fate sitting behind the pilot:"When the bomber was near the sea surface, the pilot lost control...The ship ditched into the sea at full speed and rolled over to the left by more then 90�." The pilot had only a little scratch on his head, Ugaki and the paymaster survived wounded. What a mircacle! For sure only bushido bullshit and Jap propaganda again or have you ever seen an honest Japanese?

Yaab -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/24/2019 12:45:04 PM)
Maybe there is a middle ground? "He died in le pose, crouching behind his ceremonial sword"?

Elessar2 -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/24/2019 1:29:48 PM)
The clip did seem to show a wound to his thorax...

Chickenboy -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/24/2019 6:42:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kursk1943 Just to cite some more of the "bushido bullshit" of Ugaki: "The first plane was staggering southward, just brushing the jungle top with reduced speed, emitting black smoke and flame". So perhaps no sudden impact at 200mph and what about losing additional speed when hitting the treetops? Ugaki's fate sitting behind the pilot:"When the bomber was near the sea surface, the pilot lost control...The ship ditched into the sea at full speed and rolled over to the left by more then 90�." The pilot had only a little scratch on his head, Ugaki and the paymaster survived wounded. What a mircacle! For sure only bushido bullshit and Jap propaganda again or have you ever seen an honest Japanese? Which is more likely? Yamamoto somehow reversed Newton's second law and was impervious to the hydrostatic shock effects of two heavy caliber hypersonic .50 slugs traveling through his lower jaw and shoulder? That an impact with a triple canopy jungle and / or gasoline fire and / or 150+G impact with the ground left him 'in repose' and clutching a silly sword? or That a highly revered Japanese Admiral's body was treated with utmost respect and the truth stretched to conceal his (literally) defacing injuries that were dehumanizing. or The properties of a bomber ditching at sea are exactly the same as those of a (flaming) bomber plunging through the jungle canopy to make a nose-down crash landing into the ground. Have you seen the physical damage done to the human body by multiple .50 slugs? How about one slug to the side of the face / jaw and another to the shoulder? Nothing about that says 'repose' or 'peaceful' or 'serene'. You decide for yourself. I know what I believe absent physical evidence. The word of a well-meaning Japanese underling notwithstanding.

Zorch -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/24/2019 9:49:38 PM)
Dumb question - Did transport planes back then have seat belts?

rockmedic109 -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/24/2019 9:50:35 PM)
A .50 cal wound through the torso will be fatal very quickly. The tissue for a couple inches around the wound channel will be pulled, torn, destroyed. Even if through some fluke of fate, his hand locked onto the sword in a death grip, it would not be strong enough to hold against the forces that would be generated by the impact. Furthermore, those muscles will begin to relax at or very shortly after death which was likely close to being effectively instantaneous after the bullet wound. I don't see any way that the laws of physics and physiology can be coerced into the result reported.

Rafid -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/25/2019 2:36:31 PM)
I think most of the arguments have been put forward and many of the good. But unfortunately many people seem only interested in confirming their pre-existing bias. Chickenboy, your description is very graphic, but seems to be mainly interested in painting the most gruesome picture possible to discredit the alternatives. There are many proven cases of plane crash victims with little outward injury and even survivors. Notice that the report also says that Yamamoto was cast clear of the plane and still in his seat. In most of the above mentioned cases, this is a key point, since leaving the main wreckage also gets you into an environment with far fewer sharp and hard objects. Notice also, that the seat can shield the body from some impacts with branches and so on. These impacts might than even work in your favor as they deaccelerate you. Newton's second law works for everybody, but if the kinetic energy is reduced over a greater distance (or several occasions) it�s not imperative to experience '150+G' in the process. As a most extreme example you might want to read up the story of Juliane Koepcke, who fell from a plane that broke up 2 miles above the Peruvian jungle. Not only did she survive, but her injuries were light enough that she walked back to civilization (or at least people) on her own for 10 days! According to what some people write here she must have pulverized on impact instead. On the other side, while Ogaki's diary is a rare example of a frank, (as far as checkable) honest, and unembellished personal account, it's very important to realize that he didn't see Yamamoto himself. The search party might have already made up an 'official version' by the time Ogaki was told. So Ogaki�s proven honesty is not a direct argument toward the �in repose� version. Without conclusive evidence in either direction we must accept uncertainty in this regard. There is little to gain by everybody taking his favorite version and then claim that anybody else is totally unreasonable.

rockmedic109 -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/25/2019 3:24:56 PM)
Still in his seat. Still holding his sword? The plane broke apart in such a way that the flooring came off with the seat to provide something for the sword to rest on? You said it. The report was second hand. I loved the stated account and believed it when I was much younger, but as I got older and more cynical, my views have changed. Without conclusive evidence, I go back to my knowledge and experiences. Maybe I just get lied to so often at work that I have become naturally skeptical. I just can't believe the story....even if I want to.

Lecivius -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/25/2019 3:47:13 PM)
If Yamamoto was hit by a .50, in any way, he would not be sitting there holding a sword. Under any circumstances, let alone a plane crash. I don't care if he was in an 6 pt harness, encased in bubble wrap, and then cocooned in an armored ball. Period. Anyone that believes otherwise has no real understanding of the ballistics of that weapon, and/or has never seen the effects of that weapon personally. I am not discounting Ogaki's report. Honestly it makes no difference decades later. But Yamamoto did not get hit by one, let alone 2 rounds from such a weapon and sit there holding a sword after being ejected. There is a better chance that aliens flew down and spirited him away.

Chickenboy -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/25/2019 8:49:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rafid According to what some people write here she must have pulverized on impact instead. "Must". No. I'm just citing the most common outcome. Say 99.9% of the time. If you want to hang up on semantics and singleton anecdotal evidence to say that no one can really say, then I'll just disagree. I think it's far more likely that Yamamato's body was brutalized by the bullets / crash / fire than not. You call it uncertainty, I call it near certainty in the absence of physical proof to the contrary (to prove the 0.1%). quote: Without conclusive evidence in either direction we must accept uncertainty in this regard. There is little to gain by everybody taking his favorite version and then claim that anybody else is totally unreasonable. Nah. You don't want to be convinced, you don't have to be convinced. I'm convinced. It's not that you're being unreasonable, it's just that you're nearly certainly wrong. I know this guy that says that gravity doesn't apply to him. A buddy of mine (a really swell guy) never likes to say bad things about anybody, so he didn't want to disprove him or argue. So, I guess in the absence of any documentation from a neutral arbiter, we really don't know, do we? I guess it could go both ways.

US87891 -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/25/2019 9:58:51 PM)
I have had to write those letters home. Believe me, it is a torture beyond the very pits of Dante�s deepest inferno. It was my responsibility, my duty, to keep them safe and return them home; it was thus my responsibility to explain (as if I could) how and why I failed; and it was my responsibility, my duty, to still �keep them safe� and return them to their loved ones, spiritually and emotionally, if not physically. In other words, you are going to say things that keep and exalt the spirit of the man, despite the loss, so that his memory has balm for its pain. Some of you have done the same, and know this. Yamamoto was Ugaki�s superior; Yamamoto was Ugaki�s fellow officer; Yamamoto was Ugaki�s friend. The gory details were for their two-one-seven equivalent. Ugaki was Yamamoto�s Chief of Staff, so it was his job, his responsibility, his �duty�, to keep his chief safe, physically, and spiritually. Ugaki�s statement was not an historical, forensic, document. Ugaki was �writing the letter home� for his friend. Please give him a break. Thank you. Matt

Rusty1961 -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/26/2019 10:34:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kursk1943 For sure only bushido bullshit and Jap propaganda again or have you ever seen an honest Japanese? Nice! What is it about this form that attracts this sort? And while I know Matrix allows the use of the racial slur, "Jap", why do you guys stoop so low? Do you also use the N-word in your daily lives as you do the slur against our Japanese brothers and sisters?

LargeSlowTarget -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/27/2019 3:30:59 AM)
I think Kursk1943's remark isn't meant to be a racial slur - it's sarcasm and he's actually defending Ugaki. As I interpret his post, he says that when people survive a crash into the ocean at full speed, it is perhaps not impossible that Yamamot's body remained relatively unharmed when crashing into the jungle at reduced speed. The report of the search party who found Yamamoto's body might have been "doctored" and the video I have posted may be embellishing the death of Yamamoto. However, it is not unheard of that people survive catastrophic events while others in the immediate vicinity of the survivor died. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sole_survivors_of_airline_accidents_or_incidents for example. Other examples include survivors of 9/11 when the WT collapsed. I have read a story of guy who was on the 22nd floor and who survived with nothing more than a fractured foot - however, I don't know if this is true or an "urban legend". What I know for sure is that my stepbrother once dozed off while going 130km per hour on a German Autobahn, veered to the right, broke through the guard barrier and went down a slope doing several barrel rolls before being stopped by a tree. He was able to climb out of the wrecked car himself with nothing more than a scratch in his face and a broken pinkie. So, personally I do not discount the possibility that someone - Yamamoto's dead body included - may remain relatively intact after a crash. It requires perhaps a miracle, but these happen from time to time. I just wanted to post a reminder of the date and selected the video more for the nice CGI then for any accurate or not portrayal of events. The video doesn't even show how Yamamoto's body has been found - was surprised that it sparked this discussion. I have been deeply moved by Matt's post.

Kursk1943 -> RE: April 18th, 1943 (4/27/2019 6:37:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rusty1961 quote: ORIGINAL: Kursk1943 For sure only bushido bullshit and Jap propaganda again or have you ever seen an honest Japanese? Nice! What is it about this form that attracts this sort? And while I know Matrix allows the use of the racial slur, "Jap", why do you guys stoop so low? Do you also use the N-word in your daily lives as you do the slur against our Japanese brothers and sisters? Some people don't seem to be able to identify irony and sarcasm. Shouldn't have posted anything. I do not need to be suspected as a rascist.

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

2.109375