RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis)

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Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/5/2019 10:42:58 AM)
Turn 3 End, South On the Rumanian border ALL FORCES ARE UNFROZEN - BUT ON THIS TURN AXIS GOES FIRST! This hook was what I found so interesting about this alternative opening. Unfreezing the forces in Rumania on turn 1 or 2 will mean the Soviets go first and have at least a turn to get away. Here they do not, and the German motorised units start the turn to the east of them. Southern Front is pocketed without even having moved from their start positions on the border. 11th army forms an infantry ball heading east of Kishiniev, and cuts the railine to all the Soviet forces in Besarabia meaning they will be in a pocket by next turn. 11 th army meets XIVPz which has come south forming another pocket around Moldova and Bucovina - XIVPz units now have a dramatically shorter supply path to Rumania now and will be full of fuel again next turn. Rumania gives a slingshot effect as motorised units coming close suddenly speed up again for heading east. In this game The Rumanian armoured division had some bad rolls leaving it with fewer movement points, usually it would have been able to cross the Dnestr river meaning XIVPz would not have had to turn south westwards but could have cut the Besarabian rail line much closer to Odessa (see dotted line on post 56). Note also circled in red (map in post 56) is one of the most annoying NKVD regiments ever, and that is from a group of units that can be very annoying. In another game this unit retreated the wrong way ten times wasting the movement points of divisions of motorised. Here a motorised unit has traveled ZOC to ZOC just to herd its retreat the right way on the first attack. Again sending motorised units over large distances meant I needed absolute certainty they would not bump into any undetected ground unit - so back to carpet recon. The main corridors through which units had to travel without surprises are clear. [image]local://upfiles/53894/AA8B4AE4EEA1464FB3E2D67662568CBF.jpg[/image] In the south the Bridgehead on the east bank from Kiev remains intact, although Das Reich is kept busy bashing away many huggers. But the infantry ball is now half a turn away and holding the bridgehead now is no longer in doubt. 2nd Panzer group continues to cut rail escape routes for units still in the marshes and is looking to link up on the east side of the marshes with the rest of 2nd Panzer Group. The Zhitomir pocket is unsurprisingly broken, but the units used to break in are themselves now surrounded. Troops on the Carpathians are carefully placed to prevent Soviet marauders being able to damage Axis towns or rail. Once the isolated troops are cleared a priority for automatic rail repair is to make a rail by pass to allow troops from Hungary and south Poland to be taken by train to the east without passing through Rumania.

Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/5/2019 10:57:17 AM)
Turn 3 End, Leningrad Air Defence Perhaps realising the danger every single Soviet fighter seems to have been moved to next to Osinovets. So every single German fighter is transferred north to meet them. The condition of Soviet fighters does not seem good. [image]local://upfiles/53894/91414C4A6BAE40F49174276F54B885B5.jpg[/image]

Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/5/2019 11:00:37 AM)
Turn 3 End, Bombing Osinovets And with fighter cover failing and getting closer to Leningrad the damage inflicted on the port each turn is accelerating. [image]local://upfiles/53894/99985E7DB54D4C8B8AA5D9CE0E644550.jpg[/image]

Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/5/2019 11:09:44 AM)
Turn 3 End, North In the North 4th Panzer Group survives the Soviet turn intact and in supply. It has only enough movement to smack a few huggers away and enlarge the lodgement around Pskow as well as connecting it up with the division that drove between the lakes. Both corps, now each with 4 motorised divisions around them, receive a buildup. The infantry ball has now arrived north of Pskow. It is likely that they will go into action for the first time on turn 4 on the Luga river, with 8 motorised units behind them full of fuel waiting to exploit any breakthrough. Given the pace of damage to the port of Osinovets it might not be necessary to storm the Neva. Instead all that needs to be done is cut off Leningrad by land. 4th Panzer Group can turn south for Moscow even earlier and the infantry can wait for Leningrad to be cut off from the sea by bombing the port of Osinovets and then take it at leisure. [image]local://upfiles/53894/8E12F82F22C9472D94322E91798E3EC6.jpg[/image]

Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/5/2019 11:23:58 AM)
Turn 3 End, Soviet Air Doctrine Percentage required to fly seems to have been set too high still [image]local://upfiles/53894/16CC9FA34CDB40ABB0AF3CE5D99BCD2C.jpg[/image]

Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/5/2019 11:24:54 AM)
Turn 3 End, Air Losses [image]local://upfiles/53894/5BCF28A604D6432E8E96BBD5B9F42DC7.jpg[/image]

Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/5/2019 11:36:45 AM)
Turn 3 End, Admin Points Spend [image]local://upfiles/53894/E26BB037BAD942F59B03F70F933DA175.jpg[/image] LVIIPz has one of the two "bad" Panzer corps commanders at the start, with the rescue need their replacement is brought forward. 26 Infantry is temporarily reassigned to the Panzer corps as part of the rescue too. Better infantry continue to be moved into L corps and not so good units out to 16th army. quote: ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist as you played with 1.11.00, the problem can be solved by HQ BU spam. Is that what used to be called "HQBU chains" - when did the name change? [:D] Boy did their public relations take a dive!

Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/5/2019 12:12:51 PM)
Turn 4 onwards I told my opponent to take their time, Soviet turn 3 has been a couple of years in the making so far. [:'(] [image]local://upfiles/53894/3562C19612494CDB99891EF2843FC74D.jpg[/image] My expectations for turn 4 onwards are -North: concentration on the centre by the Soviet side will mean defences are not ready on the Luga so should be easy to overcome. In very few turns Leningrad will be cut off overground - 4th Panzer Group and other good units will turn south to Moscow early leaving Leningrad to be cut off by bombing Osinovets. -South: 1st Panzer Group will capture Odessa or a black sea coast hex to its west to pocket all the units trying to escape from Besarabia. There will be no time now to dig in before the Panzers arrive! Nikolaev will fall on turn 5 and 1st Panzer Group will make headway against little opposition along to the Don Bend. Infantry will fan out east of Kiev towards Kharkhov -Centre: 2nd Panzer Group will shut the east side of the marshes in two or three turns. but there will be a scrap around the landbridge, but also potential to encircle many more Soviet forces.

Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/5/2019 12:23:03 PM)
DISCUSSION POINTS [image]local://upfiles/53894/27A7C33F439940FFA5A3FF431B25749E.gif[/image] Things to think about 1. Can advancing further be better than making more pockets? 2. How does this alternative opening for the south compare to the usual one? 3. Should Humphrey Bogart have a part in Brief Encounter?

joelmar -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/5/2019 2:23:13 PM)
I wouldn't mind the loss of the mot regiment, if and when it falls! IMO not a really good global strategic situation for the Soviet player, with fast loss of key positions in the North and South, and a big brawl he cannot win at the landbridge, I understand he 'forgot' to continue the game ;-) But anyhow, I really like this opening, it looks to me quite effective. It's maybe the best implementation possible of the "panzer idea" in the game. 'Infantry balls' are particularly good against an extreme runner as attacks on defense lines will be made earlier in AGN and you won't have much occasions for pockets after turn 1 anyway, so I do think in that case it might be much better than usual ones. And I also think it's still good against a "fight and stand" guy as it will threaten more things fast and make spearheads stronger. Maybe get to pocket less units, but to an advantage of having to deal with strong defenses a bit farther back in the Soviet space. I really like the wait to unfreeze Bessarabia, it makes everything much more natural in the south, too bad for all those guys who can rail out of the Lvov-Stanislav area, I don't like fighting there anyway, much easier to clear the area south of Rovno. There are quite a few powerful units in that bag also. I would like to see OOB numbers and ground when all that operation is done and compare with more standard stuff. Anyway, it cleans fast the backyard in the south and makes a lot of infantry available east earlier. And for those Soviet units that don't rail out of there... God have mercy! The bridgehead at Kiev is really cool even though it shouldn't have been so easy. But why not take what is given? And yeah for Humphrey!

Zorch -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/5/2019 4:25:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus DISCUSSION POINTS [image]local://upfiles/53894/27A7C33F439940FFA5A3FF431B25749E.gif[/image] Things to think about 1. Can advancing further be better than making more pockets? 2. How does this alternative opening for the south compare to the usual one? 3. Should Humphrey Bogart have a part in Brief Encounter? [image]local://upfiles/34241/783B69409C714AFE95C518207039D867.gif[/image]

Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/6/2019 11:03:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zorch [image]local://upfiles/34241/783B69409C714AFE95C518207039D867.gif[/image] After this I found the respectable Lvov opening very dull!

Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/6/2019 11:04:48 AM)
Rational Comparison of South Openings quote: ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist I think the Southern pocket can be broken at the Zolotya Lipa river with one unit from the inside and the the 15th Tank division from Stanislav. Throwing away 400 tanks and 1k trucks is a difficult decision though. A bait? You will lose quite some units from the classical Lvov pocket to rail-outs and disbands. I think I counted the unit kill win/loss from the Lvov pocket and Bessarabia when we discussed this earlier, need to find it again. Edit: Haven't found it :-( I think you should air transfer a Security Divison to the Rumanian border to lock the rail [:D] I think this is it? quote: ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist A major learning point for me is that Rumanians do not unfreeze until T3, always thought it will be T2 at the latest. I have done some counting: We assume the northern pockets (Kovel, Rovno, maybe even Zhitomir) as fixed and compare your opening with one where the Lvov pocket is closed/the railway blocked, assuming a runaway opponent who rails out/disbands everything he can. You for sure lose: 4 Mnt. Divs 2 Tank Divs 2 Sec Regiments Assuming the area directly west of Galati (called Bessarabia?) isn't encircled, you for sure gain: 1 Mnt. Div 3 Inf. Divs (mid to low quality) 2-3 Sec Regiments 1-2 Kav Divs The interesting question is whether the units in Bessarabia can escape or even encircled with some lucky MP rolls, that would change the calcualtion, but requires a test game to find out. There is at least a chance you come to disband or evacuate them to Odessa if the city is defended, which most players will do anyway. Why do you assume that Odessa can not be fortified before T4, at least that is my understanding of your post? The Front HQ in Odessa can be relocated and the FZ disbanded. On top of this, your rail is delayed by one turn. This is definitely an opening that surely can compete with other optimised ones and a good out-of-the-box-idea. I think on a strict static comparison of this versus the normal Lvov opening fewer and less units/manpower/equipment are trapped. As a result it is unlikely to be used by others (much) in future games. My challenge of course is that pocketing more units may not always be the best thing to do.... However we are comparing the modern incarnation of the Lvov opening that has been optimised incrementally over generations of players. If this alternative were taken up by other players I would expect to come back in a years time to find it had been optimised by others to include an "extended Zhitomir" and a "Super-Besarabian" and God knows what else. So the comparison is between a very developed opening and one without any development at all. An alike comparison might be more favourable, but from these starting points that will just not happen. I do not have screenshots of other games where I tried this. But capturing Odessa on turn 4 and rolling up along the southern coast was the result. It is possible that on the only turn that Odessa was unfrozen they could have better deployed units to dig in to hold on to Odessa, or even railed/shipped in units to do it while the area was still frozen. Some units in Besarabia did get east of Odessa - but were just trapped in another pocket to the west of Nikolaev. Trying to outrun Panzers without rail is always a race Soviet units will lose. Fundamentally it is about positioning - for the whole of the far south the Soviet side side starts of with 1st Panzer Group well to its east and with no easy way to recover from being so out of position. So fewer pockets at the start are being traded for better positioning and more pocketed later? [image]local://upfiles/53894/3C29B2C2BE9F4F35AC0DD3899214A6E8.jpg[/image] The delay on starting in rail repair in the south, unless something as good can be done elsewhere, is a serious downside to this opening though. However there were other less rational things to consider ...

Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/6/2019 11:16:31 AM)
Alternative Openings as Psyops There are old AARs which take advantage of the freeze rules for the Rumanian border. But I have now seen there are three published AARs using Timmeh's variety of it - the one for the 8MP game, this one for the Brief Encounter game, but also the one for the 2by3+ team game. In the 8MP game it failed due to an error of the manual. In Brief Encounter it worked as planned. But in 2by3+ where it was tried it also failed ... but very successfully! The Soviet opponent reacted to the opening by pushing as many units as close to the border as possible - it is instructive to read their comments from their AAR. At first... quote: ORIGINAL: Psych0 Not a very good opening by the Krauts in the south...So I decided not to run away yet, also because Rumania stays out of the war next turn still quote: ORIGINAL: Psych0 OK, I've done South... not too impressed with my opponent...- Defending the Rumanian border to really frustrate AGS and delay building their rail from there But after a few turns... quote: ORIGINAL: Psych0 Any point continuing guys?! I can do my turn but I don't really see the point. Good learning experience. Well played on their part quote: ORIGINAL: Psych0 "South Commander deserts"...Sorry to let you down. Thanks for the learning experience and all the best. [image]local://upfiles/53894/4C86DE7313534EFD82CD2162445940DA.gif[/image] Which makes me wonder if this opening has value not because of what it plans to do, but just because it is not what your opponent expects. It is if you like the "Madman" strategy or the "Pretend I am Stupid" strategy. quote: ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist A bait? I wonder if the alternative opening made for the south made the Soviet side think it had been "flunked." In 2by3+ the Soviet side reacted by flooding the south near the border with units, in Brief Encounter by denuding it of units. Either way it left the Soviet side in a bad place in the end. [image]local://upfiles/53894/61EB4A04221349898F7D5728359096D9.jpg[/image]

Zorch -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/6/2019 11:26:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus Alternative Openings as Psyops There are old AARs which tke advantage of the freeze rules for the Rumanian border. But I have now seen there are three published AARs using Timmeh's variety of it - the one for the 8MP gme, this one for the Brief Encounter game, but also the one for the 2by3+ team game. In the 8MP gme it failed due to an error of the manual. In Brief Encounter it worked as planned. But in 2by3+ where it was also tried it failed ... but very successfully! The Soviet opponent reacted to the opening by pushing as many units as close to the border as possible - it is instructive to read their comments from their AAR. At first... quote: ORIGINAL: Psych0 Not a very good opening by the Krauts in the south...So I decided not to run away yet, also because Rumania stays out of the war next turn still quote: ORIGINAL: Psych0 OK, I've done South... not too impressed with my opponent...- Defending the Rumanian border to really frustrate AGS and delay building their rail from there But after a couple of turns... quote: ORIGINAL: Psych0 Any point continuing guys?! I can do my turn but I don't really see the point. Good learning experience. Well played on their part quote: ORIGINAL: Psych0 "South Commander deserts"...Sorry to let you down. Thanks for the learning experience and all the best. Which makes me wonder if this opening has value not because of what it plans to do, but just because it is not what your opponent expects. It is if you like the "Madman" strategy or the "Call Me Stupid" strategy. quote: ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist A bait? I wonder if the alternative opening made for the south made the Soviet side think it had been "flunked." In 2by3+ the Soviet side reacted by flooding the south near the border with units, in Brief Encounter by denuding it of units. Either way it left the Soviet side in a bad place in the end. [image]local://upfiles/53894/61EB4A04221349898F7D5728359096D9.jpg[/image] [image]local://upfiles/34241/002ED6BDF25B478582FC899C321AC74D.gif[/image]

EwaldvonKleist -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/6/2019 11:31:45 AM)
quote: Is that what used to be called "HQBU chains" - when did the name change? Boy did their public relations take a dive! Taking on the role of word-meaning-and-definition-nazi, I say HQ BU spam=doing many HQ BUs in one turn across the map. HQ BU chain=doing the HQ BUs in consecutive turn for one spearhead for a chained advance over converted hexagons. [:D] But true, some user of the HQ BU chain expression had some public relations issues in the past :D I see you found my E-Mail. Knowing you I am sure you had it properly tagged in some folder and searched for no more than 2 minutes. quote: However we are comparing the modern incarnation of the Lvov opening that has been optimised incrementally over generations of players. If this alternative were taken up by other players I would expect to come back in a years time to find it had been optimised by others to include an "extended Zhitomir" and a "Super-Besarabian" and God knows what else. So the comparison is between a very developed opening and one without any development at all. An alike comparison might be more favourable, but from these starting points that will just not happen. My comparison was for "all things being equal around Kovel/Rovno/Zhitomir" and only chaning the part "close the Lvov pocket or not". Losing the units in the Lvov pocket is intrinsic to your opening idea. As a sidenote, your opening approach allows to pocket (not just ZOC lock as usual for super the super Lvov pocket) 16th army in the South IIRC from my test last year. Regarding your three discussion points: 1. Advancing instead of pocketing can work of course, in the terminology of "total war" it was treated as outmaneuvering the enemy force instead of destroying it, placing the formations in a place where they are not dead but useless. It can work, but the problem is that an outmaneuvered unit will walk back and block your path again, whereas destroying a unit means you have to deal with it only once. 2. I refer to my quoted e-mail.

Zorch -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/6/2019 11:59:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist quote: Is that what used to be called "HQBU chains" - when did the name change? Boy did their public relations take a dive! Taking on the role of word-meaning-and-definition-nazi, I say HQ BU spam=doing many HQ BUs in one turn across the map. HQ BU chain=doing the HQ BUs in consecutive turn for one spearhead for a chained advance over converted hexagons. [:D] But true, some user of the HQ BU chain expression had some public relations issues in the past :D I see you found my E-Mail. Knowing you I am sure you had it properly tagged in some folder and searched for no more than 2 minutes. quote: However we are comparing the modern incarnation of the Lvov opening that has been optimised incrementally over generations of players. If this alternative were taken up by other players I would expect to come back in a years time to find it had been optimised by others to include an "extended Zhitomir" and a "Super-Besarabian" and God knows what else. So the comparison is between a very developed opening and one without any development at all. An alike comparison might be more favourable, but from these starting points that will just not happen. My comparison was for "all things being equal around Kovel/Rovno/Zhitomir" and only chaning the part "close the Lvov pocket or not". Losing the units in the Lvov pocket is intrinsic to your opening idea. As a sidenote, your opening approach allows to pocket (not just ZOC lock as usual for super the super Lvov pocket) 16th army in the South IIRC from my test last year. Regarding your three discussion points: 1. Advancing instead of pocketing can work of course, in the terminology of "total war" it was treated as outmaneuvering the enemy force instead of destroying it, placing the formations in a place where they are not dead but useless. It can work, but the problem is that an outmaneuvered unit will walk back and block your path again, whereas destroying a unit means you have to deal with it only once. 2. I refer to my quoted e-mail. Oh. [image]local://upfiles/34241/06D80237B8AA41DA82BC15D610CA0FF2.gif[/image]

joelmar -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/6/2019 4:33:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EwaldVonKleist It can work, but the problem is that an outmaneuvered unit will walk back and block your path again, whereas destroying a unit means you have to deal with it only once. That is why I was mentionning that this strategy might be better against a runner. If he is skillful, he won't let you pocket him anyway and when you get to his line in the north, he will already be solidly entrenched with a deep front. So better have a go there as fast as possible with as many troops as possible, the enemy will have too many troops there anyway so I do think position becomes more important than enemy OOB. Maybe in the south it is different, but I still like not having to go through clearing Lvov-Stanislav area and having all those 17th army troops forward as fast as possible. I also like the idea of having Odessa much easier to clear up fast. Only problem with that is of course that you don't know what the enemy will do beforehand, stand and fight or run, so you have to take the chance.

Crackaces -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/6/2019 11:18:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joelmar Your moniker looks a lot like Hannelore Schmatz ... she used to rest on teh South Col Mt Everest [image]local://upfiles/38979/E514C149C84F4147866404D98709A564.jpg[/image]

joelmar -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/6/2019 11:39:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Crackaces Your moniker looks a lot like Hannelore Schmatz... Crackaces... meet Eddie the psycho!

Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/7/2019 9:01:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joelmar quote: ORIGINAL: Crackaces Your moniker looks a lot like Hannelore Schmatz... Crackaces... meet Eddie the psycho! Is that anything to do with Iron Maiden? quote: ORIGINAL: joelmar And yeah for Humphrey! He had his supporters - well supporter. But looks like Dickie Burton beat him to the next Brief Encounter. [image]local://upfiles/53894/85B8AAA09634448C811228D780D4F266.jpg[/image]

Zorch -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/7/2019 10:19:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: joelmar quote: ORIGINAL: Crackaces Your moniker looks a lot like Hannelore Schmatz... Crackaces... meet Eddie the psycho! Is that anything to do with Iron Maiden? quote: ORIGINAL: joelmar And yeah for Humphrey! He had his supporters - well supporter. But looks like Dickie Burton beat him to the next Brief Encounter. [image]local://upfiles/53894/85B8AAA09634448C811228D780D4F266.jpg[/image] [image]local://upfiles/34241/05C38575F32A4CB59218CAFF993D0B5C.jpg[/image]

joelmar -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/7/2019 11:12:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus Is that anything to do with Iron Maiden? Well, I admit, not only the usual suspect, but also fully guilty as charged!!! Real name is Eddie the Head... but in this incarnation he is Eddie the Trooper :-) And Richie Burton was always a fast taker!

Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/7/2019 5:14:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 56ajax Under the current version airfield detection decays from 5 to 3 next turn. (Other units can go from 5 to 0). In response to a message asking about optimum recon. I have described recon for airbases. At the end of the turn I also make sure that every other unit in the clear is raised to at least detection level 4. My understanding is that this will mean next turn two thirds of those units should still be visible at the start. Recon just raising the level of detection of units already detected is much more effective than scatter gunning recon in empty spaces. And yes of course as a side benefit you will detect new units as you are raising detection levels on others. I find this is the most efficient form of reconnaissance - it uncovers more information per recon flight than other ways of doing it. In effect you are tracking units continually every turn. So if you are playing me and wonder why all the recon battle reports on the map are always on Soviet units at the start of the turn and never in empty space this is why. [image]local://upfiles/53894/8A3B9BAF175845C9B2570BBB0B592470.gif[/image]

Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/7/2019 5:16:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joelmar And Richie Burton was always a fast taker! But was more often taken by Liz Taylor. [:D] [image]local://upfiles/53894/8225CDD50552419094E29CEA5AA130DD.gif[/image]

Telemecus -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/7/2019 5:46:52 PM)
Pockets Or Momentum I think it is worth distinguishing three types of momentum being discussed here *i) Pockets now or pockets later:* You can ignore a pocket now if you will create a pocket later. Or in other words you have a pre-pocket now. I consider for example the pocket of Besarabian forces coming up in turn 4 in this category. Yes a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush - you need some sort of discount factor so you only overlook a current pocket for something bigger in future to compensate for the risk of it going wrong. But in this sense I still think you can call this a kill and not just making them useless. *ii) Pockets now or manpower:* It is worth giving up a pocket now if it means grabbing a manpower centre that would create far more units later. The prime example here is Leningrad - the urban hexes and their neighbours have close to 80 manpower points. That is something like half a division every turn in 1941. If you grab it in 1941 the Finns will mean you will not lose it in the Blizzard or for a long time after. This is in addition to other benefits like shortening the German lines, using the Finns for the front-line down to Novgorod in the Blizzard, better supply in the North etc. An early capture of Leningrad could also mean Army Group North rushes south to help capture Moscow too. [image]local://upfiles/53894/A6D822EA22A042C0BD9D627490975EFC.jpg[/image] Here the comparison is between capturing a couple of brigades and a rifle division by keeping six motorised divisions south of the Dvina, or instead see them past Pskow on turn 2. The units to capture ratio of the former is 3 motorised divisions per captured Soviet division - a bad ratio anyway. IF being past Pskow on turn 2 means you will capture Leningrad in 1941, and not means not (a big question mark on this I know) AND having Leningrad during the blizzard means the Soviet side will lose 10 divisions worth or more of replacements THEN the calculus should still be the latter "kills" more units than the former. *iii) Pockets now or position only* quote: ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist instead of destroying it, placing the formations in a place where they are not dead but useless This of course is the weakest sense of momentum, and would need skill of a player to decide if it is worth giving up unit kills for position. But in Brief Encounter I would say i and ii above are the real arguments for it and not iii quote: ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist some user of the HQ BU chain expression had some public relations issues in the past :D Anyone in particular - or do you take the First Amendment? [:)]

Zorch -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/7/2019 6:28:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Telemecus quote: ORIGINAL: joelmar And Richie Burton was always a fast taker! But was more often taken by Liz Taylor. [:D] [image]local://upfiles/53894/8225CDD50552419094E29CEA5AA130DD.gif[/image] But he was not her only man. [8D] [image]local://upfiles/34241/7E6E310EDE0943F2A7D28D3B1CC65663.jpg[/image]

A21 -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/7/2019 6:54:27 PM)
Thankyou for this guide. And as well as teaching us so much about cinema there are some interesting posts on War in the East too! [:D]

Zorch -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/7/2019 9:50:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Armatrading Thankyou for this guide. And as well as teaching us so much about cinema there are some interesting posts on War in the East too! [:D] +1 I would like to see a corresponding game from the Soviet side.

56ajax -> RE: Brief Encounter, Telemecus (Axis) (6/8/2019 9:00:41 AM)
quote: I would like to see a corresponding game from the Soviet side. Is anyone expert on Russian cinema?

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