Russians too weak in game version (Full Version)

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smckechnie -> Russians too weak in game version (6/6/2019 1:22:26 PM)

I have played several games so far on this version of the game and it seems to me that the Russians are just too weak in this version of the game.

I haven't played against the AI, but I have seen several comments to this effect also.

It could be that I need to adopt a different strategy I suppose, but as is, it appears that the Russians are pretty much wiped out by mid 1943 early 1944.

I would appreciate comments from the forum on this.

So far I have tried stand and fight everywhere. Pull back and leave cheap units to delay Germans. Good research on Russians to match German forces.

The only strategy I have seen work has been to send entire Allied Air Forces to Russia to knock out German supply.

Are others of you experiencing this unbalance in German vs Russia play?

Also, I know that one key is to get the Western allies to hit as much in the west as possible, but historically that was not necessary.



otumfuo2 -> RE: Russians too weak in game version (6/6/2019 2:29:29 PM)

Make sure you research Infantry Weapons 2 quickly so that you can upgrade your units before the German invasion. Also make sure (through the convoy map) that you are sending the maximum amount of MPPs from the Western Allies to Russia.



Nimrod 9th -> RE: Russians too weak in game version (6/6/2019 5:45:35 PM)

Played lots of games vs. AI as allied. Medium and easy level only. Yes, Russians are weak but I'm able to hold off the Germans. I research inf weapons 1 and inf warfare 1 immediately. Then build an ENG as fast as possible. Then focus on inf weapons 2, arm warfare and air warfare. I build no units (except the ENG) until after Germany invades. First eng that comes on line goes to Leningrad area. Second ENG goes to Moscow. Then both to Stalingrad. Able to get a good line of fortifications in both areas and a couple keys ones at Stalingrad. There are also a number of small things I do (specific units in specific locations, etc) that helps but too many to list. Basically I try to turn the eastern front into three areas … Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad. Very few counterattacks early. But all of this is part of a much bigger European strategy. Again, too complex for a short text. I can usually get Greece to hold out tying down many It units and a couple german ones too. With Greece holding North Africa is easier to take over, southern Italy easier to invade. Shoot I even do a limited US invasion of France (sometimes even in 42). My point is that with a good overall European strategy I have been able to get Russia to hold vs. AI at easy and med levels.



smckechnie -> RE: Russians too weak in game version (6/6/2019 10:44:29 PM)

I agree with all of the strategy points that you make on playing against the AI and most of your points are good against a human opponent too. Against a good or great axis player though, I am not seeing the Russians being able to hold out under the current scenario of the game.

I know that the best strategy is to open up a second front as soon as possible in Europe, but by the time the allies get strong enough to open a second front the Russians have been defeated.



sveint -> RE: Russians too weak in game version (6/6/2019 10:45:26 PM)

Exact same experience. The Soviets are too weak. Not starting any new PBEM games until next version is released.



HamburgerMeat -> RE: Russians too weak in game version (6/7/2019 1:10:15 PM)

I think Hubert mentioned in the Allied airpower thread that he will be buffing the USSR. I'm thinking that, in addition, maybe the U.S. should be able to send more MPPs through convoys.



smckechnie -> Axis win most games? (6/7/2019 1:22:49 PM)

HamburgerMeat,

How many games have you played where the allies have won without sending entire allied AF to Russia? I would be curious to know how many times axis have won in your games vs Allies. I think there will be some times where allies have won, but in those games, I think will be mostly with novice or beginning players against veteran players.

I think I have played 8 games or so, except for my game against you, Axis win every time. Russia knocked out by 1943 or beginning of 1944 no matter what strategy taken by the Russians.


What have you seen so far in all of your games?



crispy131313 -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/7/2019 1:45:31 PM)

I have not played very many full campaigns, against the AI is the US very slow in beginning amphibious invasions, especially in the Pacific? The most recent game I played only an US invasion force, without surface vessel support tried to attack Algeria, this was late spring 1943 and no other amphibious assaults.



gamer78 -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/7/2019 7:33:39 PM)

I'm too waiting for a patch for another pbem. Unfortunately Russians seems as a minor faction. Doesn't have numbers and can't counterattack in later years. And can not hold crucial locations.



HamburgerMeat -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/8/2019 5:36:02 AM)

Smckechnie,

You were the first PBEM opponent I used it against. Experimented with it in single player beforehand.

Axis win every time when I play them. The only time I've played as the allies in WaW is against you.





fireston -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/8/2019 2:44:49 PM)

I am in the process of finishing a game as the allies verse a human control Axis player. I found Russia to be pretty balanced, I did early on research Inf Weapons 1, Inf Weapons 2, and Inf warfare. I was able to to hold the Axis in 41, and counter attack in 42, and should be in Berlin Spring/Summer of 43. I did an early UK landing in 1942, which forced the Axis player to divert resources away from the Eastern Front. This is only one game and I have another 5 going on in various stages but I have not found the Soviet Union to be unbalanced in all my AI games, and current games running.



eriador08 -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/8/2019 4:50:03 PM)

After about 10 pbem games as allies i do not see the need to strengthen russia. I never lost them once. One time it was pretty close but western allies saved the day.
I only invest in inf techs, industry, anti air and tank techs. After i feel save i invest in mobility and artillery.

Air units are not needed. I often sell them at the first possibility.

I let the axis make the first push without resistance. They meet my strong defence lines a little bit deeper in russia behind good positions. If the moment was right and i smell weakness i also pushed hard with russians in early barbarossa.

After all everything depends. Axis player chooses his focus and you need to react accordingly.



smckechnie -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/9/2019 2:08:38 PM)

Eriador seems to be an exception to what I think is overall happening in that Axis win most games because of weak Russia.

I wonder if Humbert has a way to check on overall victories of axis or allies?




Hubert Cater -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/9/2019 2:29:24 PM)

We did run a poll a while back to get a wider response on balance and it can be found here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4602362

Final Results:
15 votes Balanced
8 votes favors Axis
2 votes favors Allies

That being said the only thing I could suggest to those, and only in case it has been missed, to optimize the MPP transfers via Convoys to the USSR which should help, and that with the next patch there will be some minor adjustments that will in the long run help the USSR a bit, but not overly so, so as to not possibly shift the balance in the other direction.




Mercutio -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/9/2019 10:18:43 PM)

I would have to say it slightly favors the Axis but once you understand the rules, which are a bit vague to a newbie, it gets better. It really is a matter of IRL the numbers really made this war a far fetched thing. So Axis go insane early but once they are held they have no hope of recovery. It is like Civil War games, IRL it had a very slim chance to work out for the South. In WWII it had a slimer chance against the world.



smckechnie -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/10/2019 12:16:59 AM)

I have played this series of games for 10 plus years. Usually what happens is that the better players figure out how to best play each side after a number of trial and error games. Once they have played a number of times you learn how to best win. This causes the game to become unbalanced, as the players learn how to exploit any advantages in the scripts, events, or diplomacy.

My prediction is that once people learn how to play the axis more, the game will tilt to the axis in terms of the number of wins.


Isn't there a way that you can count all games played and the number of Allied vs Axis wins?



sapper32 -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/10/2019 12:38:40 PM)

I feel the game is balanced towards the Axis in my current game I was sort of holding my own in Russia even destroying a Pzr Group but I was increasingly spending my dwindling MPPs on units at the cost of research, when 1943 came around the German Pzrs at LVL 4 plus air power are untouchable, Having said that and reading other posts there is a lot more I could have done to help my own cause, Although I don't agree that the Red Army should spawn right where it can be destroyed on Barbarossa turn one



Searry -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/10/2019 2:27:20 PM)

Nevermind.



Hubert Cater -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/10/2019 3:41:36 PM)

quote:

Isn't there a way that you can count all games played and the number of Allied vs Axis wins?


For PBEM++ games at least, unfortunately there is no automatic statistic tracking of this on the server, you would have to go through each completed game one by one and tally them manually and just looking at the game data for each game it unfortunately doesn't even track that either, just that the game is finished.



Hubert Cater -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/10/2019 3:45:53 PM)

quote:

Although I don't agree that the Red Army should spawn right where it can be destroyed on Barbarossa turn one


The issue here is that with hindsight, no Soviet player would leave their front line units along the border as you are right it makes little sense for them to simply be destroyed as they were historically.

The event that handles the placement of the front line units has never been intended to bolster the Soviet forces, or to even ensure play balance. Rather it is a historical flavour event that allows for the recreation of the destruction of quite a few units in the opening stages of Barbarossa.

The potential historical benefits are still there however if an Axis player does not have an effective start to Barbarossa, as the Soviet player is then rewarded with the survival of these units for use later on.

Hope this helps,
Hubert



eriador08 -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/10/2019 6:25:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

quote:





The potential historical benefits are still there however if an Axis player does not have an effective start to Barbarossa, as the Soviet player is then rewarded with the survival of these units for use later on.



This is what happened in my games twice. My opponent neglected russia for too long and concentrated on other things. When soviets entered the war most units could be saved. Especially HQs are great, when they survive. In those games i could start the push into the Reich from the start.

This is why it is important to attack first as axis.



sveint -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/11/2019 6:33:25 AM)

Hubert, could you at least look at better enforcement of the Japan-USSR neutrality pact? You have events for all sorts of historical constraints but the non-aggression pact between these two countries is completely absent. Japan should fulfill some sort of conditions before being allowed to attack.



BillRunacre -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/11/2019 7:30:20 PM)

If Japan is attacking the USSR, what are the UK, USA and India doing to take advantage of their involvement there?



Mercutio -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/12/2019 10:01:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

If Japan is attacking the USSR, what are the UK, USA and India doing to take advantage of their involvement there?


IRL or how is it responding in the game? Before Japan declares war on the US or after? Before Germany declares war on the USSR or afterward?

No matter the scenario I think it should boost the morale of all nations in SE Asian as Japanese resources are being diverted. That could be the penalty.

Before Germany declared war on the USSR:
The western powers didn't like the USSR, especially for the non-aggression pact with Germany and dividing Poland. I don't think they would care.

Overall though a bad idea for the Axis as Russia would start mobilizing immediately and make it harder for Germany

Before Japan declares on the Allies:
Definitely the US would probably look at lend/lease, but really everything else is probably the same as above. What could be interesting is sharing some level 1 techs with Russia to help them out.

Strategy wise, moderately helpful in that it ties down Russian units. However other than the initial snatch and grab Japan's resources are probably better off elsewhere unless they got enough of China that they just want to hold it.

After everyone is fighting:
I doubt much would change as everyone is just fighting to hold their ground at first. Sending fleets that close to Japan would be suicide, although that would mean less resources were available for Japan to defend the Pacific and SE Asia. China would stand the most to gain simply by land resources of Japan being diverted.

If China had already fallen, you should have seen it coming. [8|]



helmseye -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/25/2019 1:53:29 PM)

I do think that Russia should have armoured warfare already



elxaime -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/25/2019 10:06:01 PM)

One strange thing I have noticed as USSR side is the often very late arrival of the Siberians. Historically, these units were present to launch an offensive in the winter of 1941-1942. In the game, they often arrive late in 1942. I am in a PBEM now and it is August 1942 and the Siberians still haven't shown up. I assume this is a roll of the luck, but it seems strange they are so late.



BillRunacre -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/26/2019 2:48:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elxaime

One strange thing I have noticed as USSR side is the often very late arrival of the Siberians. Historically, these units were present to launch an offensive in the winter of 1941-1942. In the game, they often arrive late in 1942. I am in a PBEM now and it is August 1942 and the Siberians still haven't shown up. I assume this is a roll of the luck, but it seems strange they are so late.


Hi elxaime

In this game, some units deploy in Siberia when the USSR joins the Allies, but there is no extra event so they will have to be operated to the west if you wish to use them there.

It's very different from our other games like War in Europe, as here once the USSR enters the war you have full control over those units in the east, and can transfer them (or not) at any time.



Mercutio -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/26/2019 11:29:16 PM)

You can easily operate them or move them manually (takes a while) and have them entrench and rest up. If the Japanese player replaces the corps with garrisons, and you notice more units in China, that is your queue.
With the new changes to supply and added USSR units in the patch, that should help Russia quite a bit.



elxaime -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/27/2019 12:12:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre
Hi elxaime

In this game, some units deploy in Siberia when the USSR joins the Allies, but there is no extra event so they will have to be operated to the west if you wish to use them there.

It's very different from our other games like War in Europe, as here once the USSR enters the war you have full control over those units in the east, and can transfer them (or not) at any time.


Ah, got it...thanks.



CSSS -> RE: Axis win most games? (6/28/2019 2:18:25 AM)

I can beat the Germans at a +1 , if the Axis declare war in late June +2, it is always the early DOW that sinks the Russians. What can the Soviets do to slow down
the German Declaration?



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