Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (Full Version)

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Taxman66 -> Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/8/2019 7:44:24 PM)

Comments and an indirect question regarding (possible) unintended consequences about the new supply rules:

1. Surprised countries are much more vulnerable.
a. Poland can be had with just the German Infantry. Germany is free to immediately move the planes (except maybe 1 FTR) and even the tanks to France early.
Even without a single use of a bomber or tank, Poland will only hold until the 3rd German turn.
Meanwhile the Maginot line can be pierced before 1940, effectively ruining any possible French/UK counter attack before French Morale goes in the toilet.
b. Netherlands and Belgium are a similar situation. You don't need to use any air force on them to take them out, enabling the bombers to be used elsewhere (see 1a).
The Major river movement point cost is now the limiting factor so while you won't get any farther than you would previous to the update, less forces are needed.
c. The 'free' Russian units (placed at war start) are even easier to destroy than before. A single FTR strike will likely completely kill a surprised bomber.
Less effort is needed to take these units out so a deeper push can be made on the opening turn.

2. Paratroopers are now a lot more vulnerable.
If you jump behind enemy lines and don't take a supply source (or are linked up) they can be killed rather easily.

3. Out of supply units on a coastal hex can get wrecked by naval units.
Even Cruisers can do 2 damage to a 0 supply land unit.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/8/2019 9:45:54 PM)

So far I think most of the new supply rules are excellent, a lot less gamey crap. Much more realistic & thoughtful. I did think 0 supply troops couldn't effect supply lines and a 1 str garrison with 0 supply for 3 turns blocked Murmansk.

1)I haven't seen what u are saying yet in Poland, Poland does start with supply. Without a single tank or bomber ( I guess you mean turn 2) Poland only holds 3 turns? So the Germans just encircle the front troops and attack Warsaw?

Sounds like Holland & Belgium need to start with some supply.

It does seem the SU reinforcements are easier to take out but they start with supply 2 no?

2) I think that makes sense (paratroopers should be more vulnerable) , before the paratroopers could sit out of supply behind enemy lines and you couldn't touch them.

3) That seems to make sense to me also. Troops without food, ammo and gas will gt whooped by naval units.


My biggest concern is that research is much much slower which is a huge advantage for Axis.






crispy131313 -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/8/2019 11:06:48 PM)

I am pretty sure that if the Belgium/Holland Forces arrive as scripted units rather then are placed on the map they will appear with supply. If that is the case it could be a good alternative fix. However they would not have entrenchment.

Edit: never mind they would not appear with supply, that’s why the Soviet front lines do not. I guess one one good thing is that now their is incentive to DOW all the Low Countries rather then only Holland.



Taxman66 -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/8/2019 11:12:03 PM)

The research change is another issue.
It takes longer for the Allies to catch up as they start in the hole and cant soend on research like Germany can.

In the other hand, the game isn't over because Germany suddenly leap frogs in tank tech and just steam rolls Russia in 1941 with level 3 tanks.

You might be right at Polish starting supply. However it appears the Poles are taking more damage on the opening turn than they used to. Fafnir is doing this to me now (and opened with it in our game that was aborted by a corrupted save). In the aborted game, I believe he used the bombers only on the opening turn and I forgot if he used the tanks or not.



Taxman66 -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/9/2019 1:01:14 AM)

I do have a couple of suggestions that I don't think are game breaking:

1. French units along the Maginot line start/deploy at full entrenchment.
2. Turn the French cities (particularly Strasbourg) into Fortresses with max entrenchment of 6 like the other Maginot line hexes.



marcdhanna -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/9/2019 5:05:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Comments and an indirect question regarding (possible) unintended consequences about the new supply rules:

1. Surprised countries are much more vulnerable.
a. Poland can be had with just the German Infantry. Germany is free to immediately move the planes (except maybe 1 FTR) and even the tanks to France early.
Even without a single use of a bomber or tank, Poland will only hold until the 3rd German turn.
Meanwhile the Maginot line can be pierced before 1940, effectively ruining any possible French/UK counter attack before French Morale goes in the toilet.


I can attest to this as Fafnir did the same to me in my first game here on the server. lol. Poland fell in three turns with infantry only attacking. No tanks or planes were used but I tried to bleed him as much as possible before the collapse.

As you spoke, the tanks and all planes (maybe not 1 ftr) were sent to to the Maginot front. I somewhat saw this coming due to lack of air and tank assaults in Poland. So I sent my air forces (UK and FR) behind the Maginot before the tanks arrived.

Nevertheless, he still punctured the fortified zone at Strasbourg but taking some air losses.


[Agreed that the Maginot should start fully fortified to help prevent this sneaky attack]


I built up my planes for another round, but he got good weather in November. Attacked again, this time severely crippling the Allied air forces by hitting them hard on their bases. Maybe I put them too close to the front and could have avoided this. But at least it kept most of his planes from doing ground attacks.

Maybe winter will slow this down!

Glad you piped up about this happening to you too. I didn't know it was something related to the update. Noobishly I just assumed it to be a variant on normal gameplay, but I guess it's unusual.


But well-played by Fafnir. It's gonna be a long war :)







PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/9/2019 10:28:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

I do have a couple of suggestions that I don't think are game breaking:

1. French units along the Maginot line start/deploy at full entrenchment.
2. Turn the French cities (particularly Strasbourg) into Fortresses with max entrenchment of 6 like the other Maginot line hexes.




Completely agree. All Maginot line should have 6 entrenchment at the start

First I think the new supply & sub rules are a huge improvement to the game.


One key issue with the slow research is the SU get Ind Prod much slower so they have a lot less MPP's throughout the game. Its very difficult to do the basic necessary research and buy corps if your opponent keeps mobilization low.

With the new supply/encirclement rules its also much easier for the Axis to drive supply down before they destroy a unit so SU can't repurchase on the cheap.

My initial concern was that the new bomber/operation rules would tilt the game towards the Allies. The bombers are weaker but soften targets much more for ground units. Overall not that much of a change. Just no more obliterating units with bombers.

Now I think the new rules have moved the game back towards the Axis quite a bit.



quote:

ORIGINAL: marcdhanna


But well-played by Fafnir. It's gonna be a long war :)





No offense but I doubt it





marcdhanna -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/9/2019 11:33:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin


quote:

ORIGINAL: marcdhanna


But well-played by Fafnir. It's gonna be a long war :)




No offense but I doubt it



You doubt my compliment? I don't really know if it's well-played or not, that's true. [:)]

But I suppose you're referring to the fact that he's a legendary player who will smite me with air armadas, invade England with one hand tied behind his back and generally decimate my forces.

That is likely so! But he'll have to do it with without the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, now visiting Davy Jones locker off Trafalgar. Some subs likely to join them next. So there's that.

But the snows don't seem to be stopping him much past the Maginot. He's tearing up a unit a turn and not taking much in the way of losses and French moral is getting pretty low already! We're now in March 22, my turn. So it will be April and he'll get clear weather...!




PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/9/2019 11:55:06 AM)

Just kidding. Hey maybe you are the Mozart of the game.

There are some important concepts being discussed in this thread, I shouldn't have deviated the attentiom.

[sm=character0267.gif]




marcdhanna -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/9/2019 12:16:48 PM)

Right agree I'll knock off the AAR commentary here and I doubt I'm even Salieri.



TangSooDo -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/10/2019 1:44:53 PM)

Another interesting supply quirk -- playing Allies vs. Axis AI I had evacuated the Rupertforce commandos from the Norwegian coast. I kept them at sea and crept down the coast then landed them next to an undefended town. Even though they had been down to very low supply before evacuating them they landed at supply level 10 all over again. They can then be brought up to 10 strength. This doesn't seem right.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/11/2019 10:23:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Comments and an indirect question regarding (possible) unintended consequences about the new supply rules:

1. Surprised countries are much more vulnerable.

b. Netherlands and Belgium are a similar situation. You don't need to use any air force on them to take them out, enabling the bombers to be used elsewhere (see 1a).
The Major river movement point cost is now the limiting factor so while you won't get any farther than you would previous to the update, less forces are needed.
c. The 'free' Russian units (placed at war start) are even easier to destroy than before. A single FTR strike will likely completely kill a surprised bomber.
Less effort is needed to take these units out so a deeper push can be made on the opening turn.





Just started another game and you are spot on on both issues.

With Netherlands & Belgium starting at 0 supply they fall far to easily. I would guess this takes 1-2 turns off the time it takes Axis to take France. They should be changed to having some type of supply.

The "free" Russian units go down much much easier. It looks like they start with supply so I'm not sure what changed to make this so.


Initially I thought the Bomber/Sub changes would tilt the game towards Allies. After playing several games it is now my opinion that the research & supply changes that have tilted the game significantly towards Axis.





Taxman66 -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/11/2019 12:21:45 PM)

I did figure a way to make Poland last until the 4th German turn. Making it last until the allies get USSR mobilization (and French morale?) benefits seems extremely unlikely. Would require extreme luck with both weather and combat results.

My biggest issue is that this appears to be a low risk and high reward strategy for the Axis. The downside is a delay of Polish plunder and a bit of MPP production from conquered Poland. Oh, and the UK can repair the Polish DD with Polish MPP (so at most 35 or so saved UK MPP). Maybe a few more points of damage to GE Infantry units too. The benefit, particularly if the weather allows the Luftwaffe to fly in fall/winter/spring (clear or frozen or mud without rain) is just breathtaking.



Taxman66 -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/11/2019 1:33:07 PM)

Maybe adding a bit more of a carrot/stick to not allowing Poland to survive that long. Perhaps a UK DE that allows Polish pilots to join the RAF (there were quite a number of them) allowing a UK fighter to be built at a reduced cost/time while removing any remaining Polish air units on the Allies 2nd turn if Poland isn't conquered.

In addition to my Maginot suggestions above.

These suggestions have no effect if Germany takes a traditional approach, and simply increase the risk factor (suggested DE) and lower the reward factor (making the Maginot harder to break).



Hubert Cater -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/11/2019 2:28:17 PM)

Thanks for the feedback everyone [:)]

For Poland, none of the supply rule changes should have an effect as Polish units do not start with 0 supply. But, those Minor units that appear on turn one of a DoW, or those Soviet units that form via script at the border after an Axis DoW, do arrive at 0 supply and the 0 supply rule combat change would have an effect on them.

However, for the next update we will differentiate between those units that end up at 0 supply during the game, versus those front line units that appear from a DoW. Essentially the Belgian, Dutch and Soviet front line units will return to how they normally were when the combat calculations were applied, and only those that end up at 0 supply during game play, i.e. from encirclement or simply being cutoff, will have the new 0 supply rule combat calculation applied.




Taxman66 -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/11/2019 4:10:11 PM)

Thanks Hubert, though I'm interested in your thoughts regarding the INF only Polish attack while breaking the Maginot in fall of 1939.

I can post pictures soon demonstrating the results.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/11/2019 4:38:57 PM)

Thanks Hubert

Again new supply /sub rules are great except for the ones you mention.

Taxman: It will be interesting to see the Maginot line.. The one benefit to Poland is on first turn I invest 50 Poland pts in diplo so you get that benefit for 3-4 turns.



Taxman66 -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/11/2019 5:13:55 PM)

This is how I got Poland to last until Axis turn #4.
I used Polish turn 1 MPP to rail Poznan Army SW of Warsaw. With GE only using INF, it wasn't cut off. The Army south of Warsaw moves to the SE of Warsaw and then hex swaps with the Gar in Warsaw enabling it to keep most of the entrenchment.

On Allied turn 2, I bombed a damaged lowish supply (or more likely a non HQ linked) GE Army next to the far southern badly damaged Polish Army in the fort. Discovered there were no interceptors, so I then disbanded the Polish Fighter and used the MPP to repair Army in Warsaw, and was able to strengthen the Polish DD a point to.

For giggles, had the far NE Gar making a nuisance in East Prussia, taking a couple of German towns. Was blocked from getting to Koingesburg (forgive spelling) though.



BillRunacre -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/11/2019 7:04:06 PM)

Interesting thread and we're open to making improvements (e.g. on the Maginot Line) though given that we've not changed anything with Poland or the French forces in quite some time I think that some players have been experimenting with new strategies in these areas, as what is possible now should have been possible in these areas before. Which makes it all the more interesting!



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/11/2019 7:05:58 PM)

I usually disband the Polish fighter & bomber and buy a diplo chit. I've never been able to use either successfully, just high experience pts for Germans.


I think Strotsborg (sp) is the weak link in the Maginot line. Can be attack from 3 sides and only entrenches 4.





Fafnir -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/11/2019 7:30:02 PM)

The attack on the Marginot Line was also possible before applying any patch.
I noticed some player move around the units of Marginot so they are not fully entrenched when Germany can attack.
I also see no reason why Germany should not be able to break throug Marginot when using 3/4 of Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe against the low morale french forces.




Taxman66 -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/11/2019 7:38:31 PM)

On allied turn 3 I disbanded the Polish bomber.

The city NW of Strasbourg (Metz?) is vulnerable as well as you'll see when I post pictures (hopefully later tonight). In a single turn Metz fell and Strasbourg was reduced from 10 to 5. I spent all of France's 2 turns of MPP (before the attack) on the Maginot forces with the exception of getting the fighter up to 10 str (though not yet upgraded to fighter tech 1). In hindsight I admit that I should've spent more at Metz and less on the other non city hexes, but I don't think it would've made too much of a difference.

An additional issue is that if you want to have the French HQ help, you have to rail it. If you don't it will be too close to the Stukas and still at 5 str. That's more MPP the French don't have to spare against this strategy.



Taxman66 -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/11/2019 7:46:42 PM)

Fafnir,
I think its very debatable as to how realistic it might be historically.

Soley in game terms, I don't have a problem with the potential strategy. I do think that the risk/reward level is not balanced. There is very little risk, and the penalty of delayed and lost Polish MPP is easily recompensed with the elimination of French counter attack possibility. The reward, when the weather is axis favorable, is stunning.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/11/2019 8:04:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

On allied turn 3 I disbanded the Polish bomber.

The city NW of Strasbourg (Metz?) is vulnerable as well as you'll see when I post pictures (hopefully later tonight). In a single turn Metz fell and Strasbourg was reduced from 10 to 5. I spent all of France's 2 turns of MPP (before the attack) on the Maginot forces with the exception of getting the fighter up to 10 str (though not yet upgraded to fighter tech 1). In hindsight I admit that I should've spent more at Metz and less on the other non city hexes, but I don't think it would've made too much of a difference.

An additional issue is that if you want to have the French HQ help, you have to rail it. If you don't it will be too close to the Stukas and still at 5 str. That's more MPP the French don't have to spare against this strategy.




Just sounds way to easy. So you reinforce all the Maginot line in the first few turns and this still happens?

There is no way one can argue the Germans would have attacked Poland w/o tanks & air.

Also it allows the Axis to take France without going thru Neth/Belgium so US/SU mobilization don't increase.




Christolos -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/11/2019 8:21:19 PM)

Very interesting thread indeed!

C



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/11/2019 9:10:41 PM)

I think there are two issues, easily resolved.

1) Maginot line troops start with 0 entrenchment, it should be at least three (maybe full).

2) All Maginot line troops should have a maximum entrenchment of 6 (currently varies).




marcdhanna -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/12/2019 2:45:40 AM)

There are certainly some amazing insights on how to play this game found in these threads. I haven't taken on board just how important entrenchment and experience gathering are.

The use of switching to maintain entrenchment levels as much as possible and not moving troops around on the Maginot are excellent points. You have to think forward in this game about defense and attacks to gain experience, as well as have foresight on the correct pattern of research given a chosen strategy.

I still disagree that HQ experience should accumulate and then be usable as transferable skills for both land and air operations though.

That encourages players to hold off conquering and instead mowing down unit after unit to build up experience points.

I'm telling you that the troops themselves would not admire leaders making them do attack after attack just to gain laurels so they could then transfer from the Wehrmacht to the Luftwaffe and become champions and naval kills on battleships! If this is how it works, I really think this should be looked at. HQ experience accumulation is too potent. Of course I have limited experience with this being handled and shown the door by one of the masters of the game. Perhaps I am still stuck in board-game strategic WW2 mentality, I'm sure there is some of that.



Taxman66 -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/12/2019 11:44:33 AM)

Changed my mind and will wait a few days (turns) before posting images. I editted an earlier turn and decided not to on a morw current turn because doing so fails to give a good overall impression of the effects of this tactic.



PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/12/2019 1:47:08 PM)

Thinking about it I think the larger issue is the ability to take Poland w/o tanks & air. The Maginot line should certainly be strengthened but then the Axis (if they don't use tanks & air in Poland) will just attack Neth/Belgium in October/November. At least US/SU mobilization go up early. There was no way in Hell Germany was going to attack Poland & Neth/Bel/France at the same time.

Following the historic timeline a competent attack will take France by June, which is leaves plenty of time. The gamey tactic mentioned above gives the ability to capture France much earlier.

I would propose that if Poland isn't taken in 3 turns there is a 10% drop in German morale and 10% for each additional turn.




PvtBenjamin -> RE: Supply Rules and Unintended(?) Consequences (6/15/2019 10:49:08 AM)

The major downside to contributing to the forum is people will use your information against you. Now everyone is attacking Metz, hopefully the entrenchment rules change quickly.




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