RE: bill Brings Banzai (Full Version)

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witpqs -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/2/2019 12:43:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
Also, sudden carrier loss syndrome might rear its ugly head for your opponent. Be gentle :)


No way. Times like this call for the jackboot to go onto the throat. Sure, don't lord your victory over him in your communications, but you've got to cut his guts out (in the game) early and often.

Perhaps he'll be demoralized by SCLS and quit? It's possible. But I'd rather have that happen early in the game than later. It would also be helpful to fellow forumites to know what future opponents are more likely to fade into the ether at the first sign of trouble.

Yup.



Chickenboy -> RE: Bill Brings Banzai (7/2/2019 12:43:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

I really like using the surfeit of SC and cSC ships in the DEI and big ports in the area for short-range escort or local ASW patrol. I actually replace some of their skippers to get their naval skills and aggression up in the midling area.

Keepin' words alive! Atta boy, er, Chiceknboy. [8D]


I know words. I have the best words. [:D]



BillBrown -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/2/2019 1:15:02 PM)

Combat report for CB



BillBrown -> RE: Bill Brings Banzai (7/2/2019 1:16:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

Dec 14, 1941

Ship and air losses. Sadly I seem to lose 1 or 2 ships most every turn to
those pesky S class subs and the dutch ones.

He seemed to set his CVTF CAP to 100 %, since there were two ineffective SBD
strikes on KB that were not escorted.



I really like using the surfeit of SC and cSC ships in the DEI and big ports in the area for short-range escort or local ASW patrol. I actually replace some of their skippers to get their naval skills and aggression up in the midling area. They're the best ASW platform (in terms of ASW rating) you'll get for a long time and you have them in abundance.

They've got pretty short legs, so you'll have to stagger them through Nagasaki-Shanghai-Hong Kong-Manila-wherever. I'd have them coating the coast of Luzon and the Formosa straits to dissuade such S-boat activity.

Even with a 100% CAP and 80NM detection, the Allied fighter scramble was entirely ineffectual. Altitude settings?


This is one of the things I am learning. So many things to know about playing Japan, very different from playing the Allies.



Chickenboy -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/2/2019 1:43:34 PM)

Thanks for posting the Combat Report, Bill.

A suggestion?

Very soon, the value of plasterizing Manila's AF / Port with Netties will not be worth the risk to those planes and pilots. Check out the skills of some of those guys-they're studs! Don't get 'em shot up over Manila or other defended airdrome. Keep 'em alive and rotate them out into your reserve pool for future KB TB pilots. After about the first week, I reserve all attritional duties like airfield bombing for my Sally and Lilly pilots.



BillBrown -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/2/2019 2:05:41 PM)

Two things, I am going to go back and edit my posts to change the date. I think I am a day off.
That is a good idea CB. I am only sweeping with some A6M2s and will be moving them to the DEI with the Netties.
There was one post that had the wrong date, sorry.



BillBrown -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/2/2019 3:29:20 PM)

Notes to do about my opponent.
I never crow about my successes in our emails, that is a rule for all my games. I know that there will be times that I will suffer
losses and I don't really need my opponent to crow about them.

The last turn I got this email from my opponent, I have been telling him how I am not really giving him an A game.


Keith Allen
Attachments
Mon, Jul 1, 3:26 PM (17 hours ago)
to me

I await developments.

I'm also happy to restart if you find a plan crystallises but then would have problems/excessive delay in putting it into operation because units aren't prepped, where you need them to be or are otherwise unavailable as a result of ongoing play in this game.

In the meantime, here is the turn.

This was my answer I sent before I had run the turn

restarting now would not fix anything. I need to experience the full game to see what I need to concentrate on at the start.
My economy seems to be doing fine.

We have only played a few days and a restart would only change the first few days. I am going to behind schedule because I am not
familiar with the tempo that Japan needs to keep to. At the same time, I made the decision when I started this game that
I would only expand to a little beyond historical and then wait to see what he did and try to blunt his counter attack.
The results of the last couple of turns puts me in good position to do this.

If my opponent wants to end the game, I can surely understand. I never try to talk a player into continuing if they want to quit.
Usually they just play a bit and then find a reason to quit later.



GetAssista -> RE: Bill Brings Banzai (7/2/2019 3:29:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
Even with a 100% CAP and 80NM detection, the Allied fighter scramble was entirely ineffectual. Altitude settings?

I had a thread some time ago about that: I'm still in the dark about the Air Combat model.
Seems like in early war Allied CV CAP sometimes just lets it happen. One more reason to be extra careful with your CVs as AFB



Chickenboy -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/2/2019 4:20:30 PM)

Bill,

Yes, the pace that the Japanese need to keep up the first 5-7 months of the game is staggering. Everybody should always be doing something every turn, whether that's resting, planning for the next target, moving to target, refueling, attacking the enemy, whatever. Every. Day. It's a whirlwind.

Sc. 2 helps a bit by pre-positioning a large heap of supplies and fuel in Truk and a few other locations. You also get a few Guards Divisions and armored divisions earlier than Sc. 1. This helps keep up the fight forward when your initial IDs are fatigued and need to recuperate. Recommendation: familiarize yourself with your upcoming OOB, particularly those early divisions at CRB.

In planning for near to intermediate goals (i.e., before the amphibious bonus expires), you have some options that need to be weighed soon. The fact that the USN CVs are unlikely to challenge you in the Pacific for a while elevates the probability of your successful execution of those options. What's next?




BillBrown -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/2/2019 7:07:03 PM)

This is what I was afraid of, now what do I do.
Email from Keith:

Hi Bill,

I think you possibly need a sharper opponent.

It seems very likely I will have lost all 3 CV's within the first week of the war. I know in theory the Allied player can recover from this but I think that takes more skill than I currently have. I don't think this game is going to be much of a challenge for you now.

If you want to keep experimenting with your Japanese planning and start, then I'll happily match up with you and hope to improve my game in the process to the point it becomes an interesting contest.

Keith


the problem is that I don't think his heart is going to be in this and when the next bad turn comes for him what will he do.



btd64 -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/2/2019 7:17:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

This is what I was afraid of, now what do I do.
Email from Keith:

Hi Bill,

I think you possibly need a sharper opponent.

It seems very likely I will have lost all 3 CV's within the first week of the war. I know in theory the Allied player can recover from this but I think that takes more skill than I currently have. I don't think this game is going to be much of a challenge for you now.

If you want to keep experimenting with your Japanese planning and start, then I'll happily match up with you and hope to improve my game in the process to the point it becomes an interesting contest.

Keith


the problem is that I don't think his heart is going to be in this and when the next bad turn comes for him what will he do.


If he wants to improve his skills then set an end date like March 31st, 1942 or something. Then both of you can work on your skills without going to far in....GP



larryfulkerson -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/2/2019 7:19:09 PM)

OR you guys could do a restart. Maybe a different scenario?



witpqs -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/2/2019 7:47:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

This is what I was afraid of, now what do I do.
Email from Keith:

Hi Bill,

I think you possibly need a sharper opponent.

It seems very likely I will have lost all 3 CV's within the first week of the war. I know in theory the Allied player can recover from this but I think that takes more skill than I currently have. I don't think this game is going to be much of a challenge for you now.

If you want to keep experimenting with your Japanese planning and start, then I'll happily match up with you and hope to improve my game in the process to the point it becomes an interesting contest.

Keith


the problem is that I don't think his heart is going to be in this and when the next bad turn comes for him what will he do.


If he wants to improve his skills then set an end date like March 31st, 1942 or something. Then both of you can work on your skills without going to far in....GP

Good idea! When first learning the game I did that a bunch (against the AI) and it really helped ramp up things. That would help both of them as there are plenty of things to be seen in that span which will be learned from. Stopping now on a game-debacle would deny them that chance. A restart when they are both more up to speed sounds like a great idea.



jdsrae -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/2/2019 9:49:46 PM)

Ponder what would have happened if this occurred in real life. This would have sent more shockwaves through the halls of the capital cities of the allies so soon after PH. What would the voting population do with their elected reps?
Would this have been enough to get the allies talking about reopening diplomatic means to resolve the dispute with Japan?
Not immediately, but come Apr 42 with Japan’s perimeter where it wanted and no striking power in either the RN or USN fleets the Japanese would have been in a strong position to propose terms.



Chickenboy -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/2/2019 11:56:11 PM)

Sorry to hear that, Bill. It appears that your opponent has no staying power and is unlikely to develop that staying power in the foreseeable future.

Were I in your shoes, I'd not entertain such an open-ended 'learning game' devoid of the suspense and challenge of beating a rival. He's changing 'the contract' a mere week after signing on the dotted line.

I'd put a 'period' at the end of the sentence. If he wants to surrender or quit the game, then he is free to do so. But he loses. You beat him. You won. Full stop.

THEN and only then-after the original terms of the game are officially completed-would I consider any further gameplay. And then, it's YOUR choice how you'd like to proceed.

You don't have to hitch your wagon to his falling star for 4 years. If you want to take on a learning game with another opponent, that's your prerogative. If you want to restart with another opponent that's your choice. If you want to continue with the same game (and he'll give up his password) and another opponent, then that's your choice.

In other words: the choice is yours and not his. What do you think will give you the game that you are looking for?



BillBrown -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/3/2019 1:04:22 AM)

You are probably right CB. But I am a forgiving person so I offered this:

Keith,
It seems like we have a few choices and maybe one or two that can roll into one later.
1. End the game and go our separate ways.
2. restart the game.
3. Continue on.
4. continue on with a short end date of say March 31, 1942. This would give both of us some experience and insight.

We may be able to roll 4 up with 2 at a later date.

I am willing to go with what you want.

Bill

I will wait to see, he probably will not answer until tomorrow morning.



BillBrown -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/3/2019 1:06:31 AM)

Let us consider a possible restart or new game. I want to ask a big question and would like a lot of
responses. Simple question really, Manila or Pearl Harbor day 1?



larryfulkerson -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/3/2019 1:07:45 AM)

I vote for a Manila strike to destroy as many subs as you can.



Chickenboy -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/3/2019 1:28:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

Let us consider a possible restart or new game. I want to ask a big question and would like a lot of
responses. Simple question really, Manila or Pearl Harbor day 1?

I always elect to turn Manila into a potato patch too. Though my preference is in the distinct minority of JFBs.

Bill: Did you save your turn 1 before sending it to your opponent the first time around? That may save you considerable time in a restart.

ETA: My "Manila" answer was brief. When you are looking for more detailed pros/cons for that strike (vs. PH) I can go into more detail then.

But ask yourself this: what is it that you are most looking for in a Manila strike vs. a PH strike? How can you / how will you take maximum advantage of what a Manila strike does vs. a PH strike?



BillBrown -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/3/2019 2:02:16 AM)

Yes I do have my turn 1, it is the one I zipped up and sent to Larry.
But there are things I did that I would like to change and some of them can not be changed.

My main idea of a Manila strike is to have KB in the DEI area for supporting the early turns.



btd64 -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/3/2019 2:06:30 AM)

If you're looking for victory points, pearl harbor. But from an allied perspective I feel that a Manila strike is crippling with KB positioned just right, you can sink every ship in port or trying to leave....GP



USSAmerica -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/3/2019 2:37:10 AM)

As an Allied player with no game yet making it into 1943 (that will change with Mike and I) I think losing the bulk of the subs at Manila would be more damaging to the Allied effort. Sure, you would get more VP's if you manage to sink a BB or 3 at Pearl, but we all know those older Battle Wagons just aren't very useful for the first 6 - 12 months. The subs can go where BB's can't and actually get to your shipping. Even with an 80% dud rate, that can still mean a lot of sunk ships via subs at the end of '42.



BillBrown -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/3/2019 2:55:35 AM)

I was thinking that a Manila strike I would set my Kates to use bombs on turn 1, no need to use up torpedoes on ships that a 250kg bomb or two can sink.
I would also use all the Netties available.



Zorch -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/3/2019 3:00:05 AM)

The AAR title: 'Bill Bombards Bataan'!



Bif1961 -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/3/2019 3:01:57 AM)

Each has it's pros and cons. Pros for PH is you get to sink some old BBs that he uses to great affect later when using them for bombardment purposes. Manila you get to sink or cripple up to 40ish subs and be on hand for a quick resolution in PI freeing up those troops sooner for a rapid invasion of DEI and the oilfields. Also with the KB in PI waters the mini-KB can go support the Malaya operations potentially speeding those up as well and sinking more early war allied vessels and garnering an equal number of VPs that you wouldn't get from not attacking PH. However by not attacking PH you lose the opportunity you just had to track down and sink 3 American fleet carriers.Therefore by having all your carriers from PI west you give the Americans free hand in SW, S and C PAC, to reinforced his exposed bases before you return with the KB to foster landings in enemy waters. My Japanese opponent went for Manila this time and I still lost 2 BBs attacking one of his Islands when the KB did return from PI waters. However his expansion in the Solomons didn't get Beyond Tulagi but he did take PM and Horn Island. So the question is do you want to give him a free hand to reinforce his isolated Pac garrisons while you bludgeon and hopefully speed up the PI, Malaya and DEI invasions?



JoV -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/3/2019 3:11:30 AM)

My own experience is that a first turn heavy port strike on Manilla, coming in at 2000ft or so, by LBA based on Formosa can deliver some pretty reasonable results. I think I sank or crippled around a dozen subs that way in my current game. Altho obviously it is heavily reliant on the numbers falling your way, and conversely can be a bit of a non-event if they don't...

Nevertheless I personally prefer having the KB hit Pearl. Firstly you get the opportunity to sink shipping other than the BBs, which I consider as useful as putting the battlewagons out of action. You get an opportunity to bludgeon the Catalina's in particular on the airfield at Pearl. And your CV are afterwards well placed to support landings at Wake, as well as intervene in the Marshalls if your opponent tries anything crafty there with his own carriers.




Uncivil Engineer -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/3/2019 10:42:29 AM)

Another advantage to hitting Manila on turn 1 is you are close enough to Singapore to support a big landing at Mersing on turn 3. With warp moves on turn 1 some of the BBs that start in the home islands should also be in the South China Sea, which means you should have at least 8 BBs available (2 that start at Singora/Patani, 2 with KB, and 4 from HI).



Chickenboy -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/3/2019 11:44:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

As an Allied player with no game yet making it into 1943 (that will change with Mike and I) I think losing the bulk of the subs at Manila would be more damaging to the Allied effort. Sure, you would get more VP's if you manage to sink a BB or 3 at Pearl, but we all know those older Battle Wagons just aren't very useful for the first 6 - 12 months. The subs can go where BB's can't and actually get to your shipping. Even with an 80% dud rate, that can still mean a lot of sunk ships via subs at the end of '42.


In my former game with Joseph (SqzMyLemon), I sank 25 subs at Manila on turn one. In my current game (FOW of course), I sank 24. Through May 1942, he's lost 35 submarines. The Manila strike expedited their demise and damaged submarines going to Soerbaja or Singapore to repair initial damage sustained at Manila were also bombed or mined in port. There's also several tankers, a handful of destroyers, two good AS, one AV IIRC and numerous other support ships for the taking.

So the main advantage IMO is to eliminate resistance in a rapid sweep into the DEI and the Phillipines. KBs punching weight can aid in clearing the way. KB can be on site every day of the first week of hostilities versus attacking one day and spending the next 6 sailing back to rearm/refuel.

Drawbacks: AV-point-wise, PH is the probable short-term winner for attack rationale. And, as others have pointed out, KB would not be in a position to deliver a knockout blow to ill-positioned Allied CVs in the first week of the war.

Thirdly, PBY availability for the Allies will be greater in the first 6 months of the war if they are not destroyed on the ground at Hickham / Ford Island. These are very useful to Allies as their eyes and ears and can spoil any Japanese surprise moves deep in the Pacific.



USSAmerica -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/3/2019 5:04:08 PM)

The potential PBY damage and destruction from a Pearl attack are a significant factor that I left out! It's a point in favor of a Pearl attack, but I still think as the Allied player I'd welcome a Pearl opening attack vs losing the bulk of the subs that start at Manila. (Assuming I'm able to keep my CV's safely out of the path of the KB) [;)]



HansBolter -> RE: bill Brings Banzai (7/3/2019 5:16:53 PM)

Something to consider.

The Allies get lots and lots of subs. So many that I am having trouble finding things for them to do.

The PBY production/replacement rate is abysmal. I have many squadrons in late 45 that are under strength.


Reducing the Allies submarine inventory is a minor speed bump that will not be keenly felt.

Reducing the PBY inventory WILL be keenly felt and will keep the American side from ever getting full use of this asset.



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