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tmac -> (7/24/2003 12:05:17 AM)

Firebase Gloria is excellent. Ermey is so good as a crusty old Sergeant Major. He plays that so well, as good as his Drill instructor in Full Metal jacket. He was also DI in another Vietnam film, I'm guessing it was "Boys in Company C", I can't remember for sure.



Belisarius -> (7/24/2003 2:37:31 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]I have to think they will be creating a "composite" company to follow that will be recreating various accounts of action in the Pacific Theater that several different companies actually went through. Hanks and Spielberg are heavy into creating "real" stories. They did a miniseries on the US space program in the 1960s that was very "real" by all accounts, IIRC. [/B][/QUOTE]

After seeing how they went about with Band of Brothers, I will have to agree with you, rb. :)

Btw, speaking of Hanks, am I the only one who considers "Apollo 13" to be a very enjoyable movie?



tmac -> I'm with you Bel (7/24/2003 2:40:16 AM)

I thought Apollo 13 was enjoyable and pretty true to what I've read of the event.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/24/2003 9:25:37 AM)

Does anyone recall if I have said anything negative about "We Were Soldiers"?

Because if I have said anything remotely unsupportive, I was full of it for sure :)

I just watched my mothers copy here while visiting (I have no idea why she bought it, she has not even watched it yet).

Anyways, long story short, sure a vet might nitpick it on a few details, but that is inevitable I think with aaaaany war movie.

I am not a vet though, and I can only say, **** that movie is worth the purchase. It's now on my dvd hit list.

I only watched it because it has Mel in it, and I like him basically.
One of Mel's better films I think.
The movie has nothing bad I can think of, and the munitions looked real for once.
This film has a massive lengthy brutal hard core down and dirty fight segment that eats almost the entire last 3/4s of the movie.

If that is what the Ia Drang was like, then my god I am glad I don't have first hand experience.

I think this movie was a fine tribute to the guys that do have first hand experience.



Ian Packham -> (7/24/2003 10:03:52 AM)

My lasting memory of We Were Soldiers is that it was too confusuing and relentless to follow. The average person would be completely lost. It was fustrating because it lacked an overview of the battlefield, I could not picture in my head the layout of the land and how the individual firefights fitted together.

I am sure this is one film that would benefit tremendously from repeated viewings.



tmac -> Les..check the additional scenes (7/24/2003 10:35:26 AM)

in We were Soldiers. The one at the "pond" or "lake" is a hoot. It was cut from final version, but it introduces the Sergeant Major (what are you, a g** d***** weatherman? played by Sam Elliot) in a really funny flashback. Some of the other additional scenes are really worth a gander too.
Tim



rbrunsman -> (7/24/2003 1:06:51 PM)

I'm no veteran, so I don't have first hand experience with explosions and such, but my main complaint with the new war movies is that everything from a Naval Gun to a grenade blows up with the same massive fireball.:confused: That is annoying to me. I've seen real grenade explosions on TV and they aren't really much to look at. That's probably why film fX guys tend to strap a 55 gallon drum of gasoline to each grenade. The movies would be better if they just toned down the explosions some. The real thing is terrifying enough. We don't need the pyrotechnics IMHO.



BrubakerII -> (7/24/2003 1:44:49 PM)

The book by the same name is excellent, and gives that overview that the film lacks. In the immortal words of R Lee Ermey - "Outstanding!"

Brubaker

[IMG]http://www.rleeermey.com/images/BBT_RLeeBoxe.jpg[/IMG]

[URL=http://www.rleeermey.com/]R Lee Ermey[/URL]



tmac -> Hand grenades (7/24/2003 7:24:30 PM)

Rb I've throw a few hand grenades in my career, and I was always struck by the power of the explosion. It is not as flashy as Hollywood portrays, but they downplay the force. I remember the first time watching them detonate thinking "Hollywood is so full of it", because I could picture movies or shows where someone would throw a grenade in a vehicle and there'd be a boom, and the occupants would roll out. I'm here to tell you a car would be left with a frame and the engine block and not much else attached, and riddled corpses. Look at what the RPGs are doing to Hummvs in Iraq, they're burning to the ground! Granted those are a little more bang, but principal is same. I agree that directors/special effects should cut down/out the gas, it is lame.



Belisarius -> (7/24/2003 7:32:30 PM)

I agree whole-heartedly about toning down the fireball effects in movies. Big bangs, explosion flash, destruction - yes. But fire does NOT do that, it's the shockwave + shrapnel. Crashing planes and incendiary bombs make huge fireballs, not much else.

Which reminds me of something I read at some place or the other (:rolleyes: ) where they were testing how much explosives and armored limo could take. They took a standard AT mine and drove the vehicle (+3 tons) over it. Suffice to say, the only thing that could identify it afterwards were the frame serial numbers. :p



rbrunsman -> (7/25/2003 4:02:04 AM)

Thanks tmac. I was watching R Lee Ermey's excellent Mail Call TV show when I saw the grenades going off. I've played with M-80s and Mexican fireworks :eek: and the flash you see is no larger than the size of your fist. As you all know, what really wrecks the vehicles is the ruptured gas tanks and you're not going to rupture a gas tank every time you toss a grenade under a car (maybe most of the time though).

The grenade instructor R Lee was interviewing said anyone within a 5 yard radius of the exploding grenade was going to be in a world of hurt, anyone within 15 yards was likely to be injured. That's not really that powerful in my mind compared to what you see grenades doing in the movies. I mean a hooch isn't going to have its roof lifted and the walls blown out by a grenade.

Thanks to anyone who can give us civilians a first hand account of what real munitions can do.



Frank W. -> (7/25/2003 4:43:37 AM)

[QUOTE]
Thanks to anyone who can give us civilians a first hand account of what real munitions can do. [/B][/QUOTE]

mhh... a "normal" hand grenade donīt makes lot of a fireball or so, but has a real "booom". i throwed one in the bundeswehr 10 years ago or so :D



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/25/2003 4:58:49 AM)

The last I checked, a conventional hand grenade was a steel casing designed to go kaboom in such a way, that the metal shards all raced in multiple directions fairly violently.

Am I wrong?

There should be no flame worth mention.

You don't really see much at all.

Unless using an incendiary (small flame) or a concussion (big bang), its just a device to send lethal shards of steel through living tissue with lethal intent.

Someone needs to tell film producers this.



tmac -> (7/25/2003 5:02:24 AM)

thats right frank, it is a good visceral boom, but just a flash and puff of smoke (along with those steel shards Les). Claymores are a REALLY big boom, and some smoke. Incendiary grenades burn bright and hot.



AbsntMndedProf -> (7/25/2003 8:44:59 AM)

Another good movie I just remembered, the 1965 film [I]The Hill[/I] with Sean Connery.

[URL=The Hill Info at Internet Movie Database]http://us.imdb.com/Credits?0059274[/URL]

Eric Maietta



BrubakerII -> (7/25/2003 3:29:36 PM)

I would imagine the blast inside a room with intact windows would be somewhat fearsome for anyone standing in the doorway? A hooch of course, is not exactl;y a contained area and therefore the blast would go through the walls, decimating the chickens fossicking outside, the leeks hanging from the straw porch and likely blow out the candle burning in the Shinto memorial. This makes an interesting point then - did the average infantryman throw a grenade into a hooch and stand behind the straw wall waiting for it to go off?

Brubaker



Maliki -> (7/25/2003 7:11:49 PM)

Don't know if it would qualify as a war film...well maybe if you strecthed the definition alot since it is about two British soldiers,but "The man who would be King" with Sean Connery and Michael Cain is a good flick to catch.



Belisarius -> (7/25/2003 7:42:25 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BrubakerII
[B]I would imagine the blast inside a room with intact windows would be somewhat fearsome for anyone standing in the doorway? A hooch of course, is not exactl;y a contained area and therefore the blast would go through the walls, decimating the chickens fossicking outside, the leeks hanging from the straw porch and likely blow out the candle burning in the Shinto memorial. This makes an interesting point then - did the average infantryman throw a grenade into a hooch and stand behind the straw wall waiting for it to go off?

Brubaker [/B][/QUOTE]

Interesting question. A follow-up thought on that; inside a hooch, you primarily have to worry about shrapnel, since the walls will absorb and dissipate much of the shockwave.

Compare it to a grenade thrown inside a closed concrete bunker. In those cases a concussion grenade is usually enough to incapacitate the inhabitants.

...which is why all buildings designed for housing any chemical/combustible/explosive materials must have collapsible walls. We had an accident in a nearby town last year in a chemical plant. It blew the wall straight out, no-one inside was injured.



tmac -> (7/26/2003 1:56:19 AM)

My training with grenades stressed falling to ground behind something solid to prevent self immolation etc., along with trying to throw it as far away from yourself as possible to start with.

I went to a NCO school with some infantry soldiers who fought in Panama. They related a technique they developed to clear high rise apartment buildings of the PDF. After trying to kick down each door along a corridor to clear each room in turn, they got creative. The floors were tile or linoleum, so they took claymores, spread the legs out flat, and armed it. They hid around a corner and skidded the mine down the corridor. Then touched off the the claymore and BOOM, all the doors opened at once, plus stunned/wounded all the occupants on the floor. They said it worked great, alot easier than kicking down doors.



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