RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (Full Version)

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wevilc -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/10/2019 3:47:35 PM)

Yes, the subs are much more manageable than I thought. Certainly for the Japs, anyway, as their convoy routes are short and go through narrow seas where subs can’t easily hide.



wevilc -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/24/2019 5:54:43 PM)

I really should move on but I am hooked on trying to play the Japs perfectly. I keep getting snagged on the amphibious ops that follow or accompany the Pearl Harbour attack. I have been finding it difficult to co-ordinate the various arms and have encountered obstacles resulting largely from not knowing the rules.

But I have at least got China sorted. Just induced a surrender in May ‘43, which will free up forces for Russia and/or India. I find a giant pincer works best, expanding in the South and wheeling in on Chunquing while chewing away in the extreme north. The centre can be held with comparatively little and it’s a good thing the AI does not appreciate the value of withdrawing from pockets before they close.

Now I quite fancy playing Poland, France, British India and China, just to get a look at things from the other side.

I think I could happily handle the Japs in a multi-player if there is one going and someone can explain how they work.



Hartmann -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/24/2019 7:29:11 PM)

Like you did before, I'm doing my first game as Japan. :)

I am kind of an SC veteran (bought the original SC on day one), but became disenchanted with the series when it went "tiles". I returned for WIE, but didn't play that one since quite some time since release. I also didn't buy WAW until just now as the smaller scale bugged me.

Anyhow: I just reached the "oil embargo" phase and this is something I'm not familiar with. I tried to get amphibs ready for war since summer, but that might have been a big mistake as I just now found out they lose supply and readiness per turn - even waiting in port! I think I might try invading Phillipines with only one amphib landing craft, seize the northernmost port and then ship in the other units via normal transport (hoping that air cover from Taiwan is enough to keep the special unit alive). I plan on taking Brunei (Borneo) with paratroops from Saigon. Not sure what to do with the big force waiting in Japan: They seem to be meant for the Dutch East Indies, but it's soooo expensive to ship them over. Maybe I'll transport them to Vietnam instead and see if I go Thailand-Burma-India with them.
Otherwise I will do Pearl Harbour and MAYBE land with amphibs from Kwajalein. Also, Truk forces might go to Rabaul.

Any tips on how to stage the invasion of the Great East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere would be most welcome! :)



wevilc -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/24/2019 9:21:40 PM)

I have a ton of suggestions, actually.

Max out research on things like amphibious warfare, logistics and industrial technology (to boost income). Also ASW. Accumulate MPPs in 1939, 40 and 41 as you need plenty to finance the amphibious ops. In that period I buy just one destroyer (maxed out with ASW capability as far as possible) and the three garrison units and one army corps that the collaborationist Nanjing govt. can build.

Assuming a December 1941 DoW and raid on PH, you need to be putting units (HQs, special forces, the odd army) into boats in Nov ‘41 so they are ready to land in the same turn as the PH raid. Remember to use long range transports where necessary. It should be possible to land in force in The Philippines and Malaya in Dec 41. Capture a port, put an HQ unit in it. Otherwise, supply will be a problem.

I send only two battleships and the subs to Hawaii with the carriers, keeping back the cruisers, destroyers and remaining battleships to protect the amphibious ops. The air units you start with and acquire by Nov ‘41 are not required but you need the naval units to deal with the Dutch East Indies navy and US subs (which turn up surprisingly quickly).

The whole thing needs detailed planning with each unit considered and directed specifically.

After the Philippines and Malaya fall, you take Batavia, thus pocketing the Dutch East Indies. I take Borneo too and hold it with two garrison units,

Then I go on the defensive, fighting only in the confined space of the Java sea where I have numerous bases to house the fleet (which includes the carriers). I use the two subs in silent mode as an early warning system (with indifferent results TBH).



Hartmann -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/24/2019 9:53:28 PM)

Thanks for your suggestions. :) As I'm already in December 41, I can't use the same strategy as you (at least not in this game anymore). I was initially focusing on China and had researched ALOT of stuff for that (infantry, ground, command, fighters etc - no tanks/armored warfare as the Chinese mountains don't seem fitting for that). I also prioritzed industry, production, logistics and espionage, though.

I did no research in amphib and ASW - I hope I won't regret that. I was thinking 11 amphibs would be enough and I plan to counter the subs with torpedo boats and marine bombers.

I produced one carrier, and a complement of fighters, tac bombers and medium bombers for the war in China. (So I still need to produce something to counter the sub threat).

ALL MY SHIPS ARE AT PEARL. I somehow didn't consider that the DIE would have a navy ...

I still have to declare war now or else the US will declare first. I will reach Brunei with my paras, but not reach the Philippines in the same turn as my parked amphib is low on supply (and new ones will only start next turn). The army group that spawned on mainland Japan is in regular transports and I think I therefore will have to commit them to Indochina->Western China ->Burma.

Let's see how this turns out. If I fail, it will at least provide a learning experience for my next game.

Edit:

- Pearl seems to be quite a success thus far: All ships in the harbours are destroyed and I also managed to damage the marines stationed there. Don't know whether my two (belated) amphibs from Kwajalein will make it, though.

- Philippines was an utter fail. My single out-of-supply amphib was not in range to land and the other two were committed just now (i.e. too late as they had to wait a turn). Next turn my approaching amphib was diminished by an American CL down to two strength points and had to flee in disgrace. I managed to sink that CL with my two subs and a Val out of Taiwan. Interestingly, it was effective even though I had only upgraded ground attack (to 2), but not naval. Also luckily, I realized I still had the Yamato in Japan which now is bound to go to the Philippines. I also ordered three torpedo boats.

- Paras landing at Brunei worked, they are now scheduled for mopping up oil fields in Borneo.

- Out-of-supply amphib from Truk didn't make it to Rabaul. I hope Rabaul will not be guarded.

- I don't know what to do about the Dutch East Indies and Malaya - not good.

- The big army group I transported from Japan (in regular transports instead of amphibs) went to Hanoi and are now being sent to Kumming, then Burma. (I hope that small dotted line from Hanoi to Kumming is a road/trail?)

I think the most important thing I learned is that one really has to save up on MPP for the amphib operations.



Mercutio -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/24/2019 11:17:28 PM)

You need amphibious as it allow more concurrent assault boats, better survivability logistics to make them cheaper to use
Long range transports for Dutch East Indies, Philipines normal ones.

I usually send 2 SF and HQ to DEI and the same for the Philippines.
I take Port Moresby, Guadalcanal, Midway, Borneo, Sakaska whatever, Guam, The UK island in the Marshalls all in one shot.

Then send troops from Thailand and those 2 SF units in the Borneo area to Singapore.

1 unit ready by Hong Kong to round out the early grab.



wevilc -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/24/2019 11:22:26 PM)

Yes, you need a ton of MPPs. But you don’t need the entire navy for Pearl! Just the carriers and minimal escort vessels. Although there is oil in Borneo it does not yield much in MPPs, unlike the DEI. I capture Borneo partly so as to have a couple more naval bases. My ships spend most of the time in port so the more bases the better. Then you can reinforce and upgrade and they are less vulnerable.

I don’t think transports work too well in combo with amphibious ops. True, they are cheaper, but they can only unload in controlled ports. And sometimes the unloading takes two turns which is very bad news.

I agree with you about tanks. The Japs are fine without them. I am building some now, in late ‘43, but that is because I want to get the sovies emboiled in Manchuri and they might just work there. Pretty much everywhere else in this theatre, they don’t.



Hartmann -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/24/2019 11:53:19 PM)

Yeah, I think next time I will use long range amphibs to get the army group from Japan to DEI. I also will definitely not use my whole fleet for Pearl anymore. :)

I tried to use amphibs together with regular transports to save on MPP (this strategy usually worked for me when doing Sea Lion in WIE: take e.g. Portsmouth, then use that port for normal transports). Seems not a good idea in the Pacific where they have to go longer routes.

And yeah, of course I took Hongkong at least right when declaring war.



Hartmann -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/24/2019 11:58:32 PM)

Do you guys declare war on Thailand (or diplo them) or leave them alone?

How much investment into amphib research is recommended for Japan - is going to level 2 enough for the early 1942 invasions?



Mercutio -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 12:10:29 AM)

I get them to at least 2 in amphib research.
Thailand will join you as will Indochina. Invading them is like Germany invading Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania



Hartmann -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 12:24:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercutio

I get them to at least 2 in amphib research.
Thailand will join you as will Indochina. Invading them is like Germany invading Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania



Ok, I'll try to go for level 2 amphib research next game then and see whether that's sufficient.

Yup, Thailand joined me the very turn after I had posted the question. If I had known, I probably would have transported those troops (i.e. those I had on regular transports) not to Hanoi, but rather to Saigon to go to Burma from Bangkog ("three pagodas pass") instead of coming from the North (via "Burma road"). Indochina "joined" earlier by an event where I had to invest 25 MPP to occupy them.

Damn, there's *already* American subs showing up everywhere and my torpedo boats need two more turns to arrive! Also, the Philippines desaster is having consequences as they got a strategic bomber there blowing up my oilfields. I somehow have to whip up resources for staging another invasion of the Philippines soon.



wevilc -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 12:43:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartmann


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercutio

I get them to at least 2 in amphib research.
Thailand will join you as will Indochina. Invading them is like Germany invading Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania



Ok, I'll try to go for level 2 amphib research next game then and see whether that's sufficient.

Yup, Thailand joined me the very turn after I had posted the question. If I had known, I probably would have transported those troops (i.e. those I had on regular transports) not to Hanoi, but rather to Saigon to go to Burma from Bangkog ("three pagodas pass") instead of coming from the North (via "Burma road"). Indochina "joined" earlier by an event where I had to invest 25 MPP to occupy them.

Damn, there's *already* American subs showing up everywhere and my torpedo boats need two more turns to arrive! Also, the Philippines desaster is having consequences as they got a strategic bomber there blowing up my oilfields. I somehow have to whip up resources for staging another invasion of the Philippines soon.

Yeah, those American subs show up fast. I am not a fan of MTBs due to their short range. A destroyer can travel 16 hexes along your convoy route and hoover up any subs it finds. Like I said, I operate 3 destroyers and improve their ASW to at least 2. In fact, I am now hitting 4 in my current game. It’s worth it though to keep the convoy routes open. I am getting 200 per turn from territories connected by convoys which is well worth having. The cruisers and carriers help out too of course.

And as Mercutio said, no need to invade Indo China or Siam (Thailand) as you get them anyway. You can then operate or transport a force to Saigon to attack Malaya, just as really happened in WW2. I use an army, two SNLFs, the parachute unit and an HQ for that. That’s 5 amphibious craft. Stick the HQ in Kota Bharu and then knock out Penang and Singapore. The AI defends Malaya weakly. I wonder what a human player might do.



Hartmann -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 12:53:54 AM)

I just found out that I can't move my troops from Hanoi over the mountains to Kunming - so my aging eyes failed me and that line seems not to be a road. Argh - which means I need to operate them to Saigon area now (I really wish I had put them on long range amphibs earlier). At least I can try to get them to Malaya then (HQ, 2SLF and army).

I had played lots of carrier/naval Pacific games in years past (Carrier Strike, Carriers at War, Uncommon Valor), but never had paid attention to what exactly happened on land there. Thus, though I knew about Japan taking over Indochina, I didn't know what exactly was the case with Thailand in WW2.

Also: I got 100 MPP left - at this point, would it be still worth it to try and bring amphib research up to 2 (probably not, huh)?



Mercutio -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 1:07:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wevilc


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartmann


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercutio

I get them to at least 2 in amphib research.
Thailand will join you as will Indochina. Invading them is like Germany invading Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania



Ok, I'll try to go for level 2 amphib research next game then and see whether that's sufficient.

Yup, Thailand joined me the very turn after I had posted the question. If I had known, I probably would have transported those troops (i.e. those I had on regular transports) not to Hanoi, but rather to Saigon to go to Burma from Bangkog ("three pagodas pass") instead of coming from the North (via "Burma road"). Indochina "joined" earlier by an event where I had to invest 25 MPP to occupy them.

Damn, there's *already* American subs showing up everywhere and my torpedo boats need two more turns to arrive! Also, the Philippines desaster is having consequences as they got a strategic bomber there blowing up my oilfields. I somehow have to whip up resources for staging another invasion of the Philippines soon.

Yeah, those American subs show up fast. I am not a fan of MTBs due to their short range. A destroyer can travel 16 hexes along your convoy route and hoover up any subs it finds. Like I said, I operate 3 destroyers and improve their ASW to at least 2. In fact, I am now hitting 4 in my current game. It’s worth it though to keep the convoy routes open. I am getting 200 per turn from territories connected by convoys which is well worth having. The cruisers and carriers help out too of course.

And as Mercutio said, no need to invade Indo China or Siam (Thailand) as you get them anyway. You can then operate or transport a force to Saigon to attack Malaya, just as really happened in WW2. I use an army, two SNLFs, the parachute unit and an HQ for that. That’s 5 amphibious craft. Stick the HQ in Kota Bharu and then knock out Penang and Singapore. The AI defends Malaya weakly. I wonder what a human player might do.


1 HQ would change everything IMO



wevilc -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 1:40:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartmann

I just found out that I can't move my troops from Hanoi over the mountains to Kunming - so my aging eyes failed me and that line seems not to be a road. Argh - which means I need to operate them to Saigon area now (I really wish I had put them on long range amphibs earlier). At least I can try to get them to Malaya then (HQ, 2SLF and army).

I had played lots of carrier/naval Pacific games in years past (Carrier Strike, Carriers at War, Uncommon Valor), but never had paid attention to what exactly happened on land there. Thus, though I knew about Japan taking over Indochina, I didn't know what exactly was the case with Thailand in WW2.

Also: I got 100 MPP left - at this point, would it be still worth it to try and bring amphib research up to 2 (probably not, huh)?

Actually, what the heck is that line? [&:]



wevilc -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 1:43:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercutio


quote:

ORIGINAL: wevilc


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartmann


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercutio

I get them to at least 2 in amphib research.
Thailand will join you as will Indochina. Invading them is like Germany invading Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania



Ok, I'll try to go for level 2 amphib research next game then and see whether that's sufficient.

Yup, Thailand joined me the very turn after I had posted the question. If I had known, I probably would have transported those troops (i.e. those I had on regular transports) not to Hanoi, but rather to Saigon to go to Burma from Bangkog ("three pagodas pass") instead of coming from the North (via "Burma road"). Indochina "joined" earlier by an event where I had to invest 25 MPP to occupy them.

Damn, there's *already* American subs showing up everywhere and my torpedo boats need two more turns to arrive! Also, the Philippines desaster is having consequences as they got a strategic bomber there blowing up my oilfields. I somehow have to whip up resources for staging another invasion of the Philippines soon.

Yeah, those American subs show up fast. I am not a fan of MTBs due to their short range. A destroyer can travel 16 hexes along your convoy route and hoover up any subs it finds. Like I said, I operate 3 destroyers and improve their ASW to at least 2. In fact, I am now hitting 4 in my current game. It’s worth it though to keep the convoy routes open. I am getting 200 per turn from territories connected by convoys which is well worth having. The cruisers and carriers help out too of course.

And as Mercutio said, no need to invade Indo China or Siam (Thailand) as you get them anyway. You can then operate or transport a force to Saigon to attack Malaya, just as really happened in WW2. I use an army, two SNLFs, the parachute unit and an HQ for that. That’s 5 amphibious craft. Stick the HQ in Kota Bharu and then knock out Penang and Singapore. The AI defends Malaya weakly. I wonder what a human player might do.


1 HQ would change everything IMO

Can you explain how, Mercutio? Where would you put it that was out of harm’s way?



Mercutio -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 10:21:46 AM)

Hedgehog? Not sure, I haven't tried it. It would be an expensive mistake if it doesn't work![:D]



amandkm -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 12:43:34 PM)

I've had good results from a diplo offensive on the DEI. Getting them to join axis not only frees up my units slated to invade, it adds the Dutch as auxiliaries, and prevents the loss of MPP due to embargo and later sabotage.

Costs a fair bit, and takes time, but the payoff is immense.



Mercutio -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 1:10:21 PM)

Interesting strategy! Thanks for sharing



Hartmann -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 2:05:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: amandkm

I've had good results from a diplo offensive on the DEI. Getting them to join axis not only frees up my units slated to invade, it adds the Dutch as auxiliaries, and prevents the loss of MPP due to embargo and later sabotage.

Costs a fair bit, and takes time, but the payoff is immense.


How many chits did you put into it and how long did it take for them to join?



amandkm -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 2:17:44 PM)

I toss them all in. Usually takes until late '40- early '41. Still, considering the return (Forces as well as economic, to say nothing of freeing up my own forces) I find it to be worthwhile if I don't feel like working on Yugoslavia (which is my alternate favorite target for diplomacy)



Hartmann -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 2:43:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: amandkm

I toss them all in. Usually takes until late '40- early '41. Still, considering the return (Forces as well as economic, to say nothing of freeing up my own forces) I find it to be worthwhile if I don't feel like working on Yugoslavia (which is my alternate favorite target for diplomacy)


I see. As I only play Japan (leaving the other Axis powers AI controlled in all respects) I could only allow myself to use the three Japanese chits (and this would probably take too long then).



amandkm -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 2:54:59 PM)

You could start a game as them all, place the chits, then save it. When you restart I think you could change who you choose to play as.

So, start as Germany and Japan, place chits, then save and restart, playing as Japan only. Not *sure* it will work, but it may.

I may try myself, just to see. :)



Hartmann -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 4:32:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: amandkm

You could start a game as them all, place the chits, then save it. When you restart I think you could change who you choose to play as.

So, start as Germany and Japan, place chits, then save and restart, playing as Japan only. Not *sure* it will work, but it may.

I may try myself, just to see. :)


Even if your buddies are computer controlled, you CAN move their units and do their research, production and diplomacy manually. :) What I meant was: In my game I set myself the house rule to leave the AI buddies to themselves. The only exception for me (in my WIE games) would be combined fronts, like in Africa.

+++++++++

On another note: I was just about to buy a maritime bomber when I noticed that tac an medium bombers have sub attack 2 right off the bat. That is actually enough to do quite some damage. Naval upgrade 2 (which I already got) bumps sub attack to 4. So if these planes have enough reach, they can be very effectively used for sub hunting in home waters even from China (I'm just doing that). Thus I decided to not buy a maritime bomber and rather invest the sum into long range aircraft research.

The only reason to do ASW research for ships as the Japanese is when you really plan to make forays very far away from home(as the sub attack of unupgraded destroyers sucks ass).



wevilc -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 6:44:19 PM)

Hartman

I have been getting on fine with destroyers, obviously with ASW researched a bit. The test must be whether you consistently get MPPs via convoy and, apart from the occasional hiccup, I find that I do. My 3 destroyers have so far sunk 5-6 subs (it’s mid-1945). Not that many but then their presence has probably had something to do with that.

On yet another note, I just took Mongolia from the north after chasing the Soviets round to Irkutsk. It’s very easy. Just drive a tank to Ulan Batoor and kill whatever is there (a corps I think - seems to be the whole Mongolian army). Don’t know yet how many MPPs will be flooding my coffers. None probably. But you get a supply source which might be handy.

Does anyone ever think the game is a bit distorted by the use of the Mercator projection? India is tiny, Russia is absolutely huuuuge! It takes ages just to scroll across its vast emptiness. Not sure what could be done about it.



Hartmann -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/25/2019 7:40:51 PM)

Yeah, Mercator projection is a double edged sword. It's somewhat benefitting the European theater scalewise, but then again there's so many hexes wasted way up North it's not even funny.



wevilc -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/26/2019 7:58:53 AM)

MPPs yielded by Mongolia .... none.



Hartmann -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/26/2019 8:15:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wevilc

MPPs yielded by Mongolia .... none.


Good to know. I took Hawaii - took me like 6 months, though. US navy never showed up to intervene, instead Eisenhower transported to Lae, seemingly alone and with no escorts.



Hartmann -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (7/31/2019 8:24:18 PM)

When Japan conquers DIE, Philippines and all those islands - how do you guys propose to garrison all that? Would you leave special forces on towns that generate MPP, or would you produce garrisons and ship them over there to free up the special forces, or would it even be advisable to leave the whole shebang unguarded except for navy patrols? All those units would come in handy elsewhere ...

Also: Is it even worth it to spend amphib MPPS to take islands like Wake, Midway, Nauru etc which are either only secondary supply centers or at best have some slight national morale effect?



Hartmann -> RE: The Japanese from a newbie’s perspective (8/2/2019 5:09:42 PM)

Nobody got any suggestions regarding the questions of my last post?

I think I will do the following: I will garrison all starting points of convois. Brunei, Kuching and Batavia with special forces, also all three MPP generating cities in the Philipines (plus I will leave the HQ there). Singapore will also receive special forces treatment. I will leave 2 special forces and a HQ on Oahu and another special force at the other Hawaiian island (with Hilo). I will also leave some fleet there because the US already tried to retake the island with 4 LR amphibs. At Bangkok, I will leave a normal garrison because mainland. Not sure what to do with Japan itself and near islands like Taiwan - I rather think they will not try to land there before they didn't get other stuff back, but maybe I'll buy a lot of normal garrisons.

I'm not sure what to do about the "worthless" islands. I didn't take any of those from the US, and the ones they take from me by sneaking transports in - like Peleliu last turn - I think are not worth taking back because they don't generate MPP. Or would there be a reason to reinvade?

Finally I'm not sure what to do with mainland South-East Asia. I got a HQ and some units at Hanoi because it seemed that English-Indian units approach from the North, but now it seems they got as stuck as I did when I tried to go to Kunming from there. Same seems to be true about the whole mountain range separating Indochina and Thailand from Burma - I garrisoned the northernmost towns, but it seems the enemy doesn't invade from there. So I guess the only way for me to invade Burma would be via Moulmein->Rangoon? I could use the HQ and most of the troops I took Singapore with to do that.



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