RE: OT: Fear of F-35 rewrites Iranian defense forces (Full Version)

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oaltinyay -> RE: OT: Fear of F-35 rewrites Iranian defense forces (7/22/2019 5:44:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay

Kicking TR out of the Nato ... who will benefit from it ?

Also, IIRC Turkey wanted tech transfer to produce Pat's but was declined. I think Loramid was a replacement project. I dont want to go into politics but from the military strategy aspect TR needed something to cover and there was no viable option, F35 was late ( IIRC it was presented as solution for the AAW defense solution ) to be the "alternative option" against cruise/ballistic missiles.

One must imagine the frustration from the Turkish side during the 90s and 2000s as they asked help from NATO for SAM defense and it was never a full commitment. At one time there were Dutch and German Patriot batteries near the Iraqi and Syrian border but their withdrawals and eventual exit probably led tot this result.

I found this https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/netherlands-to-withdraw-patriot-batteries-from-turkey - just to give u an idea.

anyways - as I said from a strategic perspective, s400s were ready and F35 was not and there was no third way it seems.

Now I present my own question - is there actually any performance by S400s in any conflict at all ?



Well I can't say if the S400 has seen combat, but the Saudis have a lot of combat experience with the Patriot and they are disappointed with it's performance to the point they want and have bought the S400.


Respectfully I wish to see reports on this sire ? One knowledgeable soul once told me it was Rapier with long legs, deadly upwards of a very large gull.



The displeasure of the Sauds with the Patriot? If you wish I will get it (if I can find it), but given the Sauds are purchasing the S400 when they already have the Patriot shouldn't that tell you something?


Maybe but over there , I guess there can be many reasons for a decision... not all entirely in the name of national interest. But then again, different people different cultures, we shouldnt judge as that Rudyard Kipling said in the "man who would be king".




Lokasenna -> RE: OT: Fear of F-35 rewrites Iranian defense forces (7/22/2019 7:41:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I know some people are extremely offended if anyone ever puts strawberries next to chocolate, but I don't care!


You're supposed to put them in the chocolate, that's why.




Chickenboy -> RE: OT: Fear of F-35 rewrites Iranian defense forces (7/23/2019 10:01:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

I am uncertain if the love / hate / extreme differences in views on certain military systems or weapons is politically motivated or not ?

Using my most balanced tone:

1) Never assume that other nations weapons or systems work when NATO / American systems are noted to have flaws, gaps, or require potential improvements.

Since the 1940's

2) They very lessons of this game are forgotten. The Japanese Zero was a superior dog fighting aircraft with a better climb rate and turning radius than every American fighter through 1945. It had its own gaps which in the end doomed it; including progressive thinking in tactics to take advantage of its gaps.

2) Growing up as a young man 1970/80's - I was assured by many knowledgeable sources reporting the USSR had superior missile tech to NATO. They could plant an ICBM in Yankee stadium if fired at home base. Subsequent proofs over the years have demonstrated this to be false; Soviet missiles were as likely to hit Moscow as New York. This was recently displayed once more during the fight verses ISIS where Russian Cruise Missiles launched against anti Governmental Syrian forces (pro American) failed spectacularly.

I need not mention the Russian Aircraft carrier issues demonstrated.

3) The history of the F18 Hornet / Super Hornet is enlighting. Too big, too slow, to many design issues in 1979 .... and up until very recently it commanded air superiority in any and every theater it was engaged.

The lessons are:

* No systems / weapons are perfect as launched by any nation. We are perhaps more aware of Nato/American gaps because of Freedom of the Press.

* It takes sustained investment in development / improvement and tactics to project force far from the home front

* While many Nations have "good" weapons or systems on an individual basis - unless sustained investment to project that force exists (as above) they are only good for the home front / defense

* While many Nations have large military systems - they lack the sustained logistics to support any action far from the home front compared to America and her Nato Allies - to this day.

* If one uses a reasonable proxy to compare Nations ability to afford sustained investment - i.e. GDP per capita - one would see despite growth or size of economies America and her Nato Allies are the only Nations that can sustain such investment.

This may be even more true of the future where "demographics" suggest significant challenges for China / Russia ...but NOT for India / Turkey



Good post, Macclan5. Well thought out. [8D]




obvert -> RE: OT: Fear of F-35 rewrites Iranian defense forces (7/25/2019 7:37:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

I am uncertain if the love / hate / extreme differences in views on certain military systems or weapons is politically motivated or not ?

Using my most balanced tone:

1) Never assume that other nations weapons or systems work when NATO / American systems are noted to have flaws, gaps, or require potential improvements.

Since the 1940's

2) They very lessons of this game are forgotten. The Japanese Zero was a superior dog fighting aircraft with a better climb rate and turning radius than every American fighter through 1945. It had its own gaps which in the end doomed it; including progressive thinking in tactics to take advantage of its gaps.

2) Growing up as a young man 1970/80's - I was assured by many knowledgeable sources reporting the USSR had superior missile tech to NATO. They could plant an ICBM in Yankee stadium if fired at home base. Subsequent proofs over the years have demonstrated this to be false; Soviet missiles were as likely to hit Moscow as New York. This was recently displayed once more during the fight verses ISIS where Russian Cruise Missiles launched against anti Governmental Syrian forces (pro American) failed spectacularly.

I need not mention the Russian Aircraft carrier issues demonstrated.

3) The history of the F18 Hornet / Super Hornet is enlighting. Too big, too slow, to many design issues in 1979 .... and up until very recently it commanded air superiority in any and every theater it was engaged.

The lessons are:

* No systems / weapons are perfect as launched by any nation. We are perhaps more aware of Nato/American gaps because of Freedom of the Press.

* It takes sustained investment in development / improvement and tactics to project force far from the home front

* While many Nations have "good" weapons or systems on an individual basis - unless sustained investment to project that force exists (as above) they are only good for the home front / defense

* While many Nations have large military systems - they lack the sustained logistics to support any action far from the home front compared to America and her Nato Allies - to this day.

* If one uses a reasonable proxy to compare Nations ability to afford sustained investment - i.e. GDP per capita - one would see despite growth or size of economies America and her Nato Allies are the only Nations that can sustain such investment.

This may be even more true of the future where "demographics" suggest significant challenges for China / Russia ...but NOT for India / Turkey



Good post, Macclan5. Well thought out. [8D]


Yes. Reading a book right now called "Grunt" by Mary Roach. It's all about innovations and the process of protecting and maintaining the soldier in the field. A lot of examples of systems adapted to unexpected circumstances. She's a very funny writer, and it's an easy read.

When it comes down to it the future of the manned fighter is a bit irrelevant. Drones will take every role in the air war soon enough, much sooner than the lifetime of the F-35 or other current airframes. Drones are cheaper, smaller, can be made to fit any combat role and don't need to be made to fit every role. The F-35 Is also already being thought of as a QB of the flight "team" including manned and unmanned aircraft in a battle zone.

When entering enemy airspace filled with counter-air systems, the Valkyrie could conceivably soak up enemy fire or even attack enemy positions and aircraft.

The F-35 has been touted by the Air Force chief of staff as the “quarterback of the joint team," and not simply another stealth aircraft. The fifth-generation fighter is expected to come with a suite of information fusion capabilities, enabling its pilot to process information and coordinate on the battlefield like never before.


https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/03/08/air-force-offers-glimpse-of-new-stealthy-combat-drone-during-first-flight/

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-06-13/loyal-wingman-part-future-air-combat

Miniturization is the future of combat systems. Imagine about 200 small, stealthy interceptor drones flying mach 1 heading up to meet 20-30 of any nations best fighters. You won't have enough ordnance to even hit all of them and the lot would be cheaper than 5 of the fighters they're shooting down. The smaller they are the more difficult it will be to find and hit them.




adarbrauner -> RE: OT: Fear of F-35 rewrites Iranian defense forces (7/25/2019 8:22:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Interesting article on CNBC about how the Iranian junta feels about the F-35. [8D]

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/18/f-35-has-freaked-out-iran-and-changed-everything-in-the-middle-east.html



Cannot find anything relevant in this article - and I live in Israel - with little to no evidence, cheap speculations, voices, sensational citations from dubious newspapers.
Sounds like some cheap propaganda, ok let's have it, why not.


P.S.: isn't this kind od subject too much "political" for this forum?




BBfanboy -> RE: OT: Fear of F-35 rewrites Iranian defense forces (7/25/2019 9:27:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Interesting article on CNBC about how the Iranian junta feels about the F-35. [8D]

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/18/f-35-has-freaked-out-iran-and-changed-everything-in-the-middle-east.html



Cannot find anything relevant in this article - and I live in Israel - with little to no evidence, cheap speculations, voices, sensational citations from dubious newspapers.
Sounds like some cheap propaganda, ok let's have it, why not.


P.S.: isn't this kind od subject too much "political" for this forum?


Discussion of military hardware strengths and weaknesses is kind of traditional. What gets contentious is whether we are getting accurate information. Sometimes it seems you just have to put every opinion out there and let the reader decide what is wisdom and what is wishful or pessimistic thinking.




Lokasenna -> RE: OT: Fear of F-35 rewrites Iranian defense forces (7/25/2019 10:05:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Interesting article on CNBC about how the Iranian junta feels about the F-35. [8D]

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/18/f-35-has-freaked-out-iran-and-changed-everything-in-the-middle-east.html



Cannot find anything relevant in this article - and I live in Israel - with little to no evidence, cheap speculations, voices, sensational citations from dubious newspapers.
Sounds like some cheap propaganda, ok let's have it, why not.


P.S.: isn't this kind od subject too much "political" for this forum?


Discussion of military hardware strengths and weaknesses is kind of traditional. What gets contentious is whether we are getting accurate information. Sometimes it seems you just have to put every opinion out there and let the reader decide what is wisdom and what is wishful or pessimistic thinking.


It also depends on whether a certain someone is the OP.




Rusty1961 -> RE: OT: Fear of F-35 rewrites Iranian defense forces (7/26/2019 5:59:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Interesting article on CNBC about how the Iranian junta feels about the F-35. [8D]

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/18/f-35-has-freaked-out-iran-and-changed-everything-in-the-middle-east.html



Cannot find anything relevant in this article - and I live in Israel - with little to no evidence, cheap speculations, voices, sensational citations from dubious newspapers.
Sounds like some cheap propaganda, ok let's have it, why not.


P.S.: isn't this kind od subject too much "political" for this forum?


Discussion of military hardware strengths and weaknesses is kind of traditional. What gets contentious is whether we are getting accurate information. Sometimes it seems you just have to put every opinion out there and let the reader decide what is wisdom and what is wishful or pessimistic thinking.


What I find interesting is how insecure many people are in this group when a dissenting opinion is voice. Many people here attack me personally when I post an article questioning the abilities of the F35.

Why? It's like they are emotionally invested in this flying, or not flying, pig of a plane. Why?




USSAmerica -> RE: OT: Fear of F-35 rewrites Iranian defense forces (7/26/2019 6:35:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Interesting article on CNBC about how the Iranian junta feels about the F-35. [8D]

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/18/f-35-has-freaked-out-iran-and-changed-everything-in-the-middle-east.html



Cannot find anything relevant in this article - and I live in Israel - with little to no evidence, cheap speculations, voices, sensational citations from dubious newspapers.
Sounds like some cheap propaganda, ok let's have it, why not.


P.S.: isn't this kind od subject too much "political" for this forum?


Discussion of military hardware strengths and weaknesses is kind of traditional. What gets contentious is whether we are getting accurate information. Sometimes it seems you just have to put every opinion out there and let the reader decide what is wisdom and what is wishful or pessimistic thinking.


What I find interesting is how insecure many people are in this group when a dissenting opinion is voice. Many people here attack me personally when I post an article questioning the abilities of the F35.

Why? It's like they are emotionally invested in this flying, or not flying, pig of a plane. Why?


It has zero to do with the opinions you state and everything to do with how you state them.




RangerJoe -> RE: OT: Fear of F-35 rewrites Iranian defense forces (7/27/2019 3:09:29 PM)

+1




Rusty1961 -> RE: OT: Fear of F-35 rewrites Iranian defense forces (7/27/2019 5:04:18 PM)

quote:

t has zero to do with the opinions you state and everything to do with how you state them.


"it has zero to do with the opinions you state and everything to do with how you state them. "

Yet here you are, reading my threads. If they are so offensive to you, why are you here?





USSAmerica -> RE: OT: Fear of F-35 rewrites Iranian defense forces (7/27/2019 5:19:35 PM)

Because I will never let offensive people drive me away from something that I otherwise like.

I'm sorry you didn't like the honest answer to your question of why you end up getting personally attacked. It's not for your opinions.




Rusty1961 -> RE: OT: Fear of F-35 rewrites Iranian defense forces (7/27/2019 5:30:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

Because I will never let offensive people drive me away from something that I otherwise like.

I'm sorry you didn't like the honest answer to your question of why you end up getting personally attacked. It's not for your opinions.


"Offensive"? Since when is disagreeing with the conventional "wisdom" offensive?

You show up in my threads because you, like others, find it interesting. I don't ask you to contribute, but you can't help but read my comments and then reply.

It's laughable you find my comments "offensive" when in reality you find them interesting, thus your inability to stop commenting.

Why not put me on block if you find my comments so offensive? That is the best question.




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