Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (Full Version)

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danprezell -> Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (7/30/2019 11:23:00 PM)

Whats with units retreating into badlands and my units cannot attack into those hexes?

Also anyone else notice that the partisan event in Patton 45 targets Allied rear and not the Soviet? The event editor in the scenario editor says force 1 which is the Allied player. I'll eventually get around to playing it again and seeing if changing it to force 2 corrects it.

In D21 the White Sea Flot. in the Soviet Northern Fleet has 4 AS-350 French helicopters and no ships. What gives?

Also I have a full stack of rail units plus one more attempting to repair the Minsk-Smolensk rail and these guys are doing nothing but watching the grass grow, I know its the end of July, you'd think it was a 120 degrees out there. Couldn't be more than a 114. Other than the Finnish, I only have two other rail units in theater and they are supporting AG North.

Other than that the campaign is going pretty good. At the end of turn 12 Army Group North has advanced past Lakes Peipus and Il Men. Army Group Center has taken Smolensk and surrounded Bryansk. Army Group South, defying all expectations has taken Kiev and Odessa. Kiev fell before Smolensk, the Soviets redeployed their forces to the north early.



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (7/31/2019 12:48:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: danprezell

Whats with units retreating into badlands and my units cannot attack into those hexes?


Motorized units can't enter badlands (or dunes). Foot units can. But note that there is a "dismount" option on the Unit Report. That may (depends upon the composition) convert a motorized unit to a foot unit.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (7/31/2019 4:13:47 AM)

quote:

D21 the White Sea Flot. in the Soviet Northern Fleet has 4 AS-350 French helicopters

The later versions corrected that I think, what version are you using?

quote:

I have a full stack of rail units plus one more attempting to repair the Minsk-Smolensk rail

Bad luck I suppose. I just went thru the Nov. to Mar. period where Rail Repair is dropped from 12 to 3, and that is enough to make you want throw the computer out the window. But don't so that!

quote:

Kiev fell before Smolensk

Historically, Kiev was open for the taking in the first week of July, but the Axis turned south to do the Uman pocket thing instead.



danprezell -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (7/31/2019 3:03:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:


The later versions corrected that I think, what version are you using?


TOAW is 4.1.0.21. D21 is 4.2. If that is not the latest scenario version can I move my saved game over? Any side effects?

quote:


Historically, Kiev was open for the taking in the first week of July, but the Axis turned south to do the Uman pocket thing instead.


I don't seem to be able to pull off the grand encirclements that historically happened in this scenario. At best I get 4-5 Divisions at a time.



danprezell -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (7/31/2019 3:06:46 PM)

Ugh, just saw that 4.61 is the latest D21. What is the best course of action? Restart or can my saved campaign port over to the updated version??



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (7/31/2019 7:09:49 PM)

quote:


I don't seem to be able to pull off the grand encirclements that historically happened in this scenario. At best I get 4-5 Divisions at a time.

I might guess that you maybe aren't being aggressive enough. I encircled the entire front once just so that I could say that I did it. 'Normal' size cauldron's are quite doable, it all depends on how many Pz Div's you commit to each flank.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (7/31/2019 7:13:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: danprezell
Ugh, just saw that 4.61 is the latest D21. What is the best course of action? Restart or can my saved campaign port over to the updated version??

Each save is a separate file, and that file cannot use a different scenario version. You can usually play with a new TOAW version, but not with a different scenario version.

So if you don't like choppers in your boats, restart [;)]



Zovs -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (7/31/2019 7:28:43 PM)

What is slightly confusing is there is a thread for D21 4.6 and D21 4.61, I am just assuming that 4.61 is the most current despite the time stamps on the threads?



danprezell -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (7/31/2019 8:34:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:


I don't seem to be able to pull off the grand encirclements that historically happened in this scenario. At best I get 4-5 Divisions at a time.

I might guess that you maybe aren't being aggressive enough. I encircled the entire front once just so that I could say that I did it. 'Normal' size cauldron's are quite doable, it all depends on how many Pz Div's you commit to each flank.


I keep my panzer divisions grouped with their respective corps, same with my infantry. Took a bit of research to figure out who belongs to who in the entire Barbarossa order of battle, but its worth it, I have a cheat sheet flow chart of all the corps organization. Per history, I kept Hoth's 3rd Panzer Group on the north flank of AG Center and Guderian's 2nd Panzer to the south. Do you suggest keeping entire panzer groups together and not just individual corps? I always seem to run into a stray Soviet unit that gets in the way of the advance. I do suppose I am overly cautious about my supply lines though. The computer seems to keep everything very spread out, my last play had massive dispersion and no major chunks of forces. Hopefully the updated PO on 4.61 changes things.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (7/31/2019 9:03:04 PM)

quote:

I have a cheat sheet f

I could have given you mine! Is yours any better? Mine can be printed out to one page for ease of viewing, but it makes it a bit jumbled.

quote:

Do you suggest keeping entire panzer groups together and not just individual corps?

Whatever it takes to get the cauldron that you want. Honestly, the mechanics of TOAW will lean you toward what you already know - smaller pockets than historical. Because in real life, Hoth didn't need to keep a chain of ZOC's, he just needed to occupy the communication and supply hubs.

So if you want bigger pockets, take the time to plan and gather larger Panzer Groups.



danprezell -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/1/2019 6:18:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

I have a cheat sheet f

I could have given you mine! Is yours any better? Mine can be printed out to one page for ease of viewing, but it makes it a bit jumbled.


Haha, mine is hand written in pencil. What do you do for later arriving German divisions? Finding out what corps/army they belong too is difficult to find out. Just about every order of battle I've seen is just the initial invasion.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/1/2019 6:40:02 PM)

HAND WRITTEN? What are you, a caveman? lol.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/KommandoHeer.htm
[:D]
It's in German, I use Google Translate if I really want to know what it says, but really it is not necessary. Poke around and you will see there is lots of great stuff on this site



danprezell -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/2/2019 12:14:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

HAND WRITTEN? What are you, a caveman? lol.


Hahah, Usually my printer cartridges are dried out from lack of use, plus easier to just write a flow chart than to computer it.

Thanks for the link! I'll have to check it out.

How far do your panzers get in the first three turns of D21? Also, this question applies to anyone reading this as well. The first two plays I've had, the farthest was Minsk for AG Center and Riga and Postavy for AG North. AG South is a mess, anyone have an actual strategy besides, "Find someone, and hit them."

I think I am going to try and see how close to Smolensk I can get in the first 3.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/2/2019 1:00:22 AM)

I just restarted a D21 game four days ago and I'm on T5 now. I'm attaching my T3 save game file so anyone can check out what I've done by T3. I honestly don't remember because I have so many opponents and so many games going simultaneously. I would load it up and do a screenshot but I'm too lazy right now, I just got up from my nap and I'm still 1/2 in a dream world. Also, my medical marijuana is some of the best in the world just now. No more nightmares but if you overdo it you can still get a pretty good buzz on. I don't want to say that I'm a world champion user but I can go through about $500 worth in a month. That's all day every day. Permanent buzz. I'm 69, retired and don't have any appointments to keep, I don't drive any longer, and besides, what's it going to do kill me? There are more terrible ways to die.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/2/2019 3:59:20 AM)

I finished my moves for my opponents so I thought I'd load up that T3 file and do a screengrab to show how far I had gotten by 1/2-way through T3.
[image]local://upfiles/16287/76F8FD59BACC4D078542507F629335F6.jpg[/image]



danprezell -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/22/2019 11:26:36 PM)

Another D21 question: My rail in the Pripet Marshes is weird, the supply level is dropping before there are any breaks in the line, starting at the river. Does a bridge need to be added?[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/60314/5F7DBD22566D44189DBAE257E6C3E122.jpg[/image]



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/23/2019 4:25:29 AM)

The rail must not be intact all the way to that point, otherwise supply would not drop like that. Sometimes it is difficult to see. Load a unit on a train and see if it can go all the way or if it stops before it gets that far.



danprezell -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/23/2019 4:49:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

The rail must not be intact all the way to that point, otherwise supply would not drop like that. Sometimes it is difficult to see. Load a unit on a train and see if it can go all the way or if it stops before it gets that far.


I can move a embarked rail repair unit all the way to the 16pt hex on the river, there are no breaks from the 39pt hexes to there. The only break in that picture is the 15pt hex to the east of the river.

I'd post my save file, but this thing is telling me the file type is unsupported.

ETA pic
[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/60314/DEFBA64302E04C10B0D416FD7ED789FD.jpg[/image]



danprezell -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/23/2019 5:02:06 AM)

Here is a pic without the unit and supply level noise..

[image][/image]

[image]local://upfiles/60314/7D1DD21555BB4D3B9F4298F2C2DB9E76.jpg[/image]



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/23/2019 5:19:40 AM)

What version are you using?



danprezell -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/23/2019 5:42:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

What version are you using?


Game: 4.1.0.21
D21: 4.61



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/23/2019 7:21:49 AM)

quote:

this thing is telling me the file type is unsupported

I think you have to zip it. It still might be too large.



danprezell -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/24/2019 12:44:35 AM)

Here is the zipped save file. Anyone got anything about the diminishing rail supply??



larryfulkerson -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/24/2019 12:49:40 AM)

I loaded your c.sal file and pressed the space bar to vanish the units and this is the
depiction of the terrain near the selected unit. I see lots of broken rail.

[image]local://upfiles/16287/5F448F846F404109BC0C7AE576C4771B.jpg[/image]



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/24/2019 1:11:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: danprezell

Here is the zipped save file. Anyone got anything about the diminishing rail supply??

The only thing I can think of is that some of those rail hexes, where the supply drops, may have been auto-repaired post supply calculation. So, while they are connected now, they may have been broken when supply was determined.



danprezell -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/24/2019 2:27:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

I loaded your c.sal file and pressed the space bar to vanish the units and this is the
depiction of the terrain near the selected unit. I see lots of broken rail.




The area in question is the rail line going through the middle of the Pripat Marshes. Haven't had issues anywhere else, Minsk sector appears normal.



Shadrach -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/25/2019 5:51:00 PM)

Do rail supply values *immediately* reach max supply once repaired, or will it take a couple of turns? I don't find anything in the manual about it - but it would explain what's seen here.

EDIT: Here's how it looks the next turn:
[image]https://i.imgur.com/3Fjh7VY.png[/image]

By the way, the default rail graphics make it really hard to see broken rail, it might be a good idea to get a mod which shows these hexes, including broken bridges, more clearly.

This is the one I use, stolen from various sources:
[image]https://i.imgur.com/QZxlmhT.png[/image]



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/25/2019 8:23:03 PM)

quote:

Do rail supply values *immediately* reach max supply once repaired

Nope.



danprezell -> RE: Some questions, Patton 45 and D21 (8/25/2019 10:01:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadrach

Do rail supply values *immediately* reach max supply once repaired, or will it take a couple of turns? I don't find anything in the manual about it - but it would explain what's seen here.



If that is the next turn, then all is well. Supply seems to have been delayed a turn for whatever reason. Thanks to all who looked into this. You guys rock.



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