CD Guns and Mine Question (Full Version)

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DOCUP -> CD Guns and Mine Question (8/10/2019 9:50:21 PM)

Is it me?

CD guns and mines seem a little anemic to me. I'm not talking about the damage dealt out from a hit but achieving the hit. I may be wrong and someone please tell me what I am missing.

I would think that CD guns in permanent bunkers (not on a moving/rocking ship) with pre plotted locations, interlocking fire, and the other stuff would score a few more hits than they do in the game. I am talking about the big coastal fortress like, Pearl Harbor, Singapore and those with permanent fortifications. Now I can see hastily emplaced guns (ie Marine defense battalions) would have lower accuracy than those permanent artillery pieces. Mines, once they mine field is discovered you don't have to worry about them anymore. At least in my book.

It is my understanding that an amphibious landing against a fortification and mine fields where feared and avoided. What am I missing folks?



RangerJoe -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (8/10/2019 10:16:38 PM)

CD guns covering minefields make mine sweeping work even more exciting. Minefields deter quick raids by DDs and inhibit submarine operations. Usually the attacking ships guns outnumber the defenders but the CD guns can tear up an invasion, especially if there is inadequate surface vessels in the TF for counter battery fire. They make invasions a little more complex and even quick bombardments can end up with damaged ships in Indian country. Not to mention narrow straights . . .



geofflambert -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (8/10/2019 10:29:39 PM)

I know I've seen devastating damage done by CD guns to ships trying to get to Manila. As for mines, I don't think you should expect very much unless you've laid 500 or more.



GetAssista -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (8/10/2019 11:00:56 PM)

CD guns are wacky yes. They can be absolutely murderous as e.g. preprogrammed halestorm at Wake. Or they can hardly contest a repreated bombardment. Once I landed into AI Vladivostok with minimal surface cover, and CDs there shot up only my supply transports leaving all troop ones untouched.
They serve as a reliable defence against minesweeping though.



RangerJoe -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (8/10/2019 11:04:49 PM)

I read where someone sank 6 CVEs in a narrow straight. He had a CD unit with a leader with low aggression and I think that it was in reserve mode. Enemy war ships passed through the narrow straight with no firing. The he replaced the lead with one with high aggression and took it out of reserve mode. Goodbye Allied CVEs!



GetAssista -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (8/10/2019 11:16:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I read where someone sank 6 CVEs in a narrow straight. He had a CD unit with a leader with low aggression and I think that it was in reserve mode. Enemy war ships passed through the narrow straight with no firing. The he replaced the lead with one with high aggression and took it out of reserve mode. Goodbye Allied CVEs!

It is usually easier than that. CVEs routinely retreat from PTs or other small surface TFs. Sometimes this makes them blunder into CD hex. AFBs, take care around HIs



RangerJoe -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (8/11/2019 1:13:30 AM)

The incident that I am referring to was a narrow straight in the Home Islands.



BBfanboy -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (8/11/2019 3:17:53 AM)

As with many things in this game, detection level is important to getting hits. If the enemy TF was well spotted before it got to the CD hex and closed toward the beach where it could be visually detected (weather permitting), it is likely to get hit a lot.
Usually TFs passing through a hex with a fortress will stay well out to sea and may not be seen by the enemy in time to engage (as the Germans did during the Channel Dash).
Japan did not have good radar until late in the war and never had a targeting system that automatically used radar inputs. So unless the TF was coming straight at the fortress it was unlikely to be hit.
Most amphib landings would be planned for an area not covered by the CD guns. The down side with having a big gun in a concrete bunker is limited traverse.

How much the game models this sort of consideration I can't say, but IRL fortresses did not get many chances to engage and did not necessarily perform well (the sinking of CA Blucher on the way into Oslo fjord being an exception). The big coastal guns in Britain (Winnie) and France (Bruno, IIRC) only fired occasionally - at each other.



RangerJoe -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (8/11/2019 7:48:34 AM)

I do believe that the Blucher was also targeted by shore based torpedoes in a narrow fjord leading up to Oslo.



Leandros -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (8/11/2019 8:48:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I do believe that the Blucher was also targeted by shore based torpedoes in a narrow fjord leading up to Oslo.

She was actually sunk by two torpedoes from the shore battery after having received two hits from the 28 cm. guns on the fortress which ignited aviation fuel and damaged fire control systems onboard. Many more hits were scored by smaller-calibre batteries placed on both sides of the sound, outside the fortress proper.

Legend says that the fortress commander, Colonel Eriksen, visually corrected the faulty distance quoted by the fortress' range finder operator. There were three Krupp 28 cm. guns at the fortress, facing south, but Eriksen only had crews to operate two of them. He also estimated that he would not have time for a reload.

I have a minor personal interest in the matter as my grand-father, Leander Andersson, a Swedish Navy helmet diver, was on loan to Norway to assist in retrieving one of the guns, later named "Moses", after it fell into the water during the transfer to the fortress following a replenishment at Krupp's in Germany in 1905.

The other operational gun was named "Aron".

Fred

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscarsborg_Fortress









Alpha77 -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (10/10/2019 5:12:11 PM)

Question regarding IJ "BASEFORCES" (not named CD units), some of those will upgrade to 12cm DP guns. Will these DP guns act also as CD guns? Meaning will such a baseforce act partly as a CD gun unit ? I know that Allied units will do this iirc. I have seen even messages like 25pdr battery or 40mm bofors engaging ships. Perhaps also the (while weak every bit counts) 25mm AA guns of baseforces might shoot at ships ? Or are IJ DP guns only shooting at ground and air targets [&:]



BBfanboy -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (10/10/2019 7:56:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Question regarding IJ "BASEFORCES" (not named CD units), some of those will upgrade to 12cm DP guns. Will these DP guns act also as CD guns? Meaning will such a baseforce act partly as a CD gun unit ? I know that Allied units will do this iirc. I have seen even messages like 25pdr battery or 40mm bofors engaging ships. Perhaps also the (while weak every bit counts) 25mm AA guns of baseforces might shoot at ships ? Or are IJ DP guns only shooting at ground and air targets [&:]

IME the DP guns only fire at ships during an amphib invasion. If an enemy TF is just passing through the hex, CD units will sometimes fire (but rarely hit) and I have never seen DP guns fire at a passing TF. Here I am thinking of places like Tsushima - I am not sure what they would do if the DP guns were on a narrow channel (special rules) hex.



afspret -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (10/25/2019 6:33:14 PM)

My sorta peeve is wondering how many hits a ship has to take before it'll sink. I've had many instances where AI controlled IJN AKL/AK/AP type ships involved in amphid landings take multiple hits from a wide range of CD type guns over the course of several turns and apparently not sink. Also, I too wonder about the usefulness of mines. I put 350+ mines at Port Moresby prior to a small invasion force of something like 6 ships sailing in and, as far as I can tell, not a single one hit a mine.



spence -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (10/25/2019 7:04:47 PM)

quote:

My sorta peeve i


On Dec 11, 1941 the Japanese attempted an amphibious landing on Wake Is. They were repulsed with the loss of two destroyers sunk as well as damage to 2 light cruisers, 3 destroyers ans a transport. The damaged ships and one of the sunken destroyers were hit by 6 x 5"/51 cal CD guns.
A second attempt 11 days later which was heavily reinforced very nearly suffered another defeat (in fact the Japanese landing on one of the islets was wiped out by the defenders)

Similarly a Japanese landing AT Tarakan in early 1942 was also repulsed. The Japanese subsequently landed on an undefended nearby beach and captured Tarakan overland.

Not sure if it was this game or the original WitP but the first situation above was explained by IJ Fanboys that the Japanese Player is under no obligation to behave tactically in the stupid manner that the original Japanese OinC did. Why not? Isn't this the province of the AI?

I can't recount any such incidents re OJN/IJA CD units.

Yes CD units seem somewhat anemic unless covering minefields. Particularly Allied CD units (excepting those permanent units guarding their major ports).




BBfanboy -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (10/27/2019 4:26:44 AM)

Part of the apparent ineffectiveness of allied CD/Fortress guns in the early game is the Japanese landing bonus allowing them to unload quickly and minimize their exposure to shore guns. Allied guns seem more effective after the Japanese landing bonus expires and after the US units get the 155mm M1A1 to replace the 5"CD gun, and radar.



Yaab -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (10/27/2019 6:29:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: afspret

My sorta peeve is wondering how many hits a ship has to take before it'll sink. I've had many instances where AI controlled IJN AKL/AK/AP type ships involved in amphid landings take multiple hits from a wide range of CD type guns over the course of several turns and apparently not sink. Also, I too wonder about the usefulness of mines. I put 350+ mines at Port Moresby prior to a small invasion force of something like 6 ships sailing in and, as far as I can tell, not a single one hit a mine.


Well, it took me 27 hits from 7.7mm MG and 20mm cannon to reach 50 Sys Damage on a single PT.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3603489&mpage=1&key=

I guess the DP/CD fire works the same as ship strafing - you only hit SUPERSTRUCTURE all the time, thus you cannot inflict flood damage on ships. If you cannot start fires on a ship, the ship can soak an ungodly amount of damage in its superstructure, before the code moves it into Escort TF and route it back to its home port.



Alpha77 -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (10/29/2019 1:27:48 PM)

Re. minefields it is important the mines are not detected it seems, eg. if an emeny has hit the minefield already or they are found by sweepers than their effectiveness will drop quite a lot.

In an former AI game, I had a heavy IJN CA/CL/DD fleet for some reason react into the Soerabaya hex (for chasing down PTs??) that was an ugly massacre I can tell you.... I almost never use reaction range for SF combat fleets so I guess the commander at that time was uber-aggressive



Alpha77 -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (10/29/2019 1:50:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Usually TFs passing through a hex with a fortress will stay well out to sea and may not be seen by the enemy in time to engage (as the Germans did during the Channel Dash).


Named Operation Cerberus. Here is one of the best naval channels of YT presenting an analysis (and of the little "mine friends" if you like heavy sarcasm):

The Channel Dash / Operation Cerberus - How to win through refuge in audacity:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNE0CkSsfJc



fcooke -> RE: CD Guns and Mine Question (10/29/2019 2:55:56 PM)

On the second invasion of Wake I would guess that the garrison would not have surrendered if the commander had an accurate picture of the situation. I recall that the islet that wiped out the Japanese landing he thought was in opposite captured, in his mind significantly influencing the lay of the battlefield.



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