Norway (Full Version)

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ice_strength -> Norway (8/14/2019 6:05:47 AM)

The Decision Event to attack Norway always kicks in at the same time. Long time players know this. So a very interesting situation took place where the allies declare war on norway after the DE. And Oslo is defended miserably. Naval bomb the port of oslo and its virtually impossible for the germans to send any reinforcements into Oslo. So the allies land hex SW of oslo and walks in the next turn.

While this happens, Germany would have spend 100MMPs+ for a DE which is now moot.

This is a very interesting strategy, but very gamey as well. Perhaps the negative impact to US tension is too low? I think this would be a very good move for the allies as it exploits a static DE. And with Norway taken, it would be a good distraction for the Germans to try to take Norway.

Has anyone encountered this?



smckechnie -> RE: Norway (8/15/2019 3:41:20 AM)

I have yet to see this, but have noticed the weak German defenses upon taking Norway. I do think that the DE which has Germany take Norway, should not weaken the Oslo corps as much as it does though.

In the previous versions of this game, one strategy for the allies was to send an expeditionary force to take Norway before the Axis did, but knowing the exact invasion date of Norway is to the allies advantage.

I would note that if the allied uses resources to do invasion of Norway, then that means the defenses of England or France will have to have been weakened.


If it becomes common practice for an allied player to take Norway after the German DE, then the counter is probably to have Germany attack Denmark and Norway earlier in the game. I am not sure how that effects the arrival of any German garrison units. In previous version of the game, garrisons would show up after a successful invasion of Norway.



BillRunacre -> RE: Norway (8/15/2019 2:49:22 PM)

Interesting, I didn't know people were doing this.

I can implement something that would make anyone doing that think twice about ever doing it again:

If Germany says yes to invading Norway via Decision and the Allies then declare war on Norway, we can shift the US significantly towards the Axis.

The question then is to set the right % swing. As this would be to counteract a gamey move I think a fairly high percentage like 20% would do?

I just had a thought, we can also penalize Allied National Morale (the UK and France's). Perhaps that would be more telling?



HamburgerMeat -> RE: Norway (8/15/2019 3:05:41 PM)

I think the US mobilization by itself would be fine. British morale would probably increase since Germany's northern flank would no longer be nearly secure, on top of denying the flow of supplies.

Maybe French morale would decrease due to thinking that the British are not prioritizing the right front



crispy131313 -> RE: Norway (8/15/2019 5:00:51 PM)

I've recognized this exploit long ago. I have it set up that if the Allies DOW Norway on that turn between accepting the event and actually invading, Germany receives a Corps and the Bulcher Heavy Cruiser (which was historically lost in the invasion) so the MPP are not a sunk cost. Just one option for a fix.



HamburgerMeat -> RE: Norway (8/15/2019 5:06:30 PM)

That's a great idea. I'd say it should be used in conjunction with a US mobilization penalty though, since giving one heavy crusier and a corps to germany is definitely worth taking Norway for



sveint -> RE: Norway (8/15/2019 6:56:37 PM)

I've done this in 2 games. First of all it is historically accurate IMO.

But it's not as great for the Allies as it first looks. Sure you can stop Germany from taking Norway. But you cannot stop them from invading Sweden if the want to. Or German airpower can dominate southern Norway and crush your units/fleet there.

But it gets worse. The US doesn't like the invasion of Norway. Less support for your from them. And what about Egypt? You'll need at minimum 2 corps, a HQ and several garrisons for Norway, backed up by serious air defense. While the cat is playing in Norway, the mice will overrun Egypt.... ok I mangled that but Egypt is more important than Norway.



sveint -> RE: Norway (8/15/2019 6:58:07 PM)

Oh and I like crispy131313's solution. Germany should get the invasion refunded.



pjg100 -> RE: Norway (8/15/2019 8:55:23 PM)

Actually, I think it would make sense for Germany to also receive the corps and CA (and some garrisons?) when the Axis decline the DE to invade Norway.



smckechnie -> RE: Norway (8/16/2019 1:02:39 AM)

Billrunacre,

Just to be clear. The British are not declaring war on Norway. There is no loss of any mobilization to the US. They are attacking Norway after the Germans take Norway through DE and the occupation forces are weakened at the end of the axis turn. So allies attack Norway in May of 1940, before the Germans can reinforce the garrison units. They essentially walk into Oslo, as the Corps that gets placed there is at 3 or lower strength after the DE.

The allies could invade Norway first before the Germans, but they then suffer loss of mobilization with the US.



ice_strength -> RE: Norway (8/16/2019 1:15:25 AM)

In my case, German turn, DE chosen. Allied turn DOW norway. Norway isnt occupied by the Germans yet.



BillRunacre -> RE: Norway (8/16/2019 2:41:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: smckechnie

Billrunacre,

Just to be clear. The British are not declaring war on Norway. There is no loss of any mobilization to the US. They are attacking Norway after the Germans take Norway through DE and the occupation forces are weakened at the end of the axis turn. So allies attack Norway in May of 1940, before the Germans can reinforce the garrison units. They essentially walk into Oslo, as the Corps that gets placed there is at 3 or lower strength after the DE.

The allies could invade Norway first before the Germans, but they then suffer loss of mobilization with the US.


Thanks, this seems to be different to the other method of the Allies simply declaring war between Germany saying yes to the DE and the invasion being carried out.

So I'll likely treat it in a different way.

I'm wondering, if the actual turn the invasion took place in couldn't be guaranteed, would the Allies still do this so much?



BillRunacre -> RE: Norway (8/16/2019 2:43:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ice_strength

In my case, German turn, DE chosen. Allied turn DOW norway. Norway isnt occupied by the Germans yet.


Yes, I think this method is one I definitely need to address, and crispy131313 has inspired a potential solution because at the moment the Germans get nothing for their investment in the invasion force.

Thanks

Bill



taffjones -> RE: Norway (8/16/2019 5:55:46 PM)

Hi Bill
In 1 game I declined the Norway DE, the Allies are happily raiding the convoy route. But Norway is not starting to lean towards the Axis.

Surely if this happened IRL Norway would be getting hacked off with the Allies sinking ships in their territorial waters for the last 6 months.



BillRunacre -> RE: Norway (8/19/2019 3:31:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: taffjones

Hi Bill
In 1 game I declined the Norway DE, the Allies are happily raiding the convoy route. But Norway is not starting to lean towards the Axis.

Surely if this happened IRL Norway would be getting hacked off with the Allies sinking ships in their territorial waters for the last 6 months.


Hi

That is odd as there is a Mobilization_2 script to move Norway 1-4% towards the Axis every turn that Allied units are raiding the convoy from Norway to Germany.

I've done some checking of this script and can't see why it wouldn't work.

Can you please let me know which hexes the Allied naval units are in when raiding?

There's also no chance that this script has been turned off via the Options screen is there?

It'll be near the bottom of the list and it's the second one called #NAME= AXIS AI: Allied Naval Presence Near Norwegian Convoy Lines (Norway->Axis).

Thanks

Bill



taffjones -> RE: Norway (8/19/2019 5:07:08 PM)

Hi Bill

They are raiding between Trondheim and Bergen

I have checked the script and it is turned on (I never play about with the setting as I would mess things up [:D] )



crispy131313 -> RE: Norway (8/19/2019 6:25:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: taffjones

Hi Bill

They are raiding between Trondheim and Bergen

I have checked the script and it is turned on (I never play about with the setting as I would mess things up [:D] )


I think the Allied AI is immune from this and I think that is probably the way to go to be honest.



taffjones -> RE: Norway (8/19/2019 8:22:36 PM)

Hi Crispy

Thanks for that, it makes sense of what is happening.

But not very helpful for trying new ideas [:)]



Tanaka -> RE: Norway (11/9/2019 4:43:32 AM)

Just curious if any of this was ever addressed in the latest patches?



sveint -> RE: Norway (11/9/2019 6:43:10 AM)

It was never changed but Allied players quickly learnt that taking Norway leaves England and Egypt in peril for lack of forces.



Tanaka -> RE: Norway (11/9/2019 4:11:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

It was never changed but Allied players quickly learnt that taking Norway leaves England and Egypt in peril for lack of forces.


Also the sitting on Norway convoy routes haha. Maybe the percentage towards Axis for Norway should be raised even more if sitting on convoy route? Does not seem to affect anyone from doing this?



Mercutio -> RE: Norway (11/9/2019 10:50:41 PM)

If an allied player wanted to, it seems trivial to be able to launch a few units, screened by the UK fleet, to attack Oslo when it is reduced to only 3 SP. I would recommend that the Oslo corp be strength 8. If the allied player wants to take Bergen, Trondheim or try for Narvik, fine. The German player has a chance to counter that. Losing Oslo would be a big blow however. Losing a base for U-boats and having to divert troops to Norway IMO is bad enough.




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