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Saulust -> RE: What is with Romanian 47mm calibre guns esp GC start? (9/18/2019 2:49:44 AM)
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Thanks for replying Montbrun, I but still think that the Romanian 47mm guns are handled weirdly.
1.) It was a Schneider 47mm M1936 model that the Romanians had L44 not the SA 37 L50 or L53, the Romanian type moved its wheels 90 degrees when deployed giving the crew more protection of which there are many pictures of in books & on line. Schneider designed a series of guns & howitzers that way then but just about none were picked up by the French Army. The Germans never supplied any captured French SA 37 47mm guns to Romania AFAIK, keeping most of them in the West, supposedly having trouble supplying ammunition for them! (The Romanians were using the same round in their '36 models, sheeesh!)
2.) I read a source saying they were producing 14 of these guns at a per month rate in or until October 1942. In total it was about only 650ish ever built of these which as I stated earlier it was in response to pre-war Hungary getting Italian L3/35 tankettes Romania contracted for 300 in total as ordered (160) and started to licence build (140 initially) along with 300 of the UE Malaxas to tow them but only built 126 or 128, although got about another 50 ex-Polish or French by Barbarossa apparently. If they were still building them at 14 per month up to Oct 42, and only about 650ish were built how could they have 30 per 20 Infantry Divs on 22 of June 1941?
3.) I think at most it was 12 per Infantry Div at start date, since every source at least all agree that they had a half size Company for their division towed my Malaxas or a truck, but I definitely still cannot fathom how it would get to 30. One source I had difficulty reading in Romanian indicates that along side that 6 at Div Company that either each Inf Regiment or Inf Battalion also had a 2 gun unit of them in a heavy weapons unit, so either 18 or 6 more so 24 or 12, but I am not certain about the date of that possible arrangement, which ever it was!
4.) I have seen a couple of sources that show the five independent Anti-tank Companies as having 12 37mm Bofors guns. Since I think Third Axis/Fourth Ally book indicates that the Romanians estimated or declared that they only had managed to provision their divisions with 50% of their ATGs so I believe that the Romanians had an 'intended' TOE of 12 guns per anti-tank gun Company, but only authorised half strengths of 6 in 3x 2 gun batteries. I have seen a single source indicate that Romanian divs had a single 6 gun Company, and also 3 x 2 guns units spread around their regiments as above, this is the only way I can fathom a total of 30 as 6 at Div plus this 3x2 guns (another 6) and the 3 infantry guns companies of 6 guns each being equipt with the same Schneider 47mm gun.
5.) The 669 ex-Polish Bofors 37mm ATGs were traded for Oil deliveries by the Germans prior to Barbarossa, I think late 1940 or early 1941 and completed delivery of them before Barbarossa start date for all those 18 guns per Rom Inf Regiments and extraneous requirements by the Bgds and other units, inc the 3 Marine Btlns eg. Anyway that 669 total was stated by a source as the most numerous single ATG piece in Romanian inventory at the launch of Barbarossa.
6.) Up to about 820 Bohler & Breda (275) 47mm guns were also traded to Romania for Oil by the Germans, the Bohler were Austrian originals apparently. I am just not sure about the timing of these deliveries. One source I saw said that all came from Germany, but I don't think so, since when did the Germans get their hands upon Brada ones themselves before Sept 1943. I think the Italians gave them those, at a hunch, probably also for Oil no doubt. AIUI, the 275 Breda ones came either primarily or partially as replacements or just for the Munte or Cavalry or some such, since the Germans had no more Bohler to give.
7.) So I think the Germans had already given 500+ Bohler 'Infantry Guns' to Romania before Barbarossa start date because the Germans or most likely either Hitler or Halder didn't want to give them actual German military equipment and had these in stock and traded them for Oil instead of their better leIG 18 75mm, of which they had plenty of to spare for 20+ Inf divs IMHO.
8.) I would like to know when exactly the Germans did trade their 500+ Bohlers to Romania for Oil. But bear in mind that they had them 'in stock' or storage to give to Romania, not a production of 30 per turn or month as in current game.
9.) I read one persons thesis that seemed to 'slightly' miss-use German archives in quotes about the Romanians in battles in '41 with the Russians trying to 'overly' point out how badly equipt the Romanians were. He was implying that the Romanians had no AT capacity because they didn't have actual AP ammunition for their ATGs! However the date of the sourced archiv was May 1941 not the date of the battles in which the line was inserted in their thesis. He also didn't show that the Romanians had any Schneider 47mm ATGs. He only tallied Bofors, Bohlers and Bredas. Just shows you to be sceptical.
I point this material out because it might indicate that a German member of the military mission may have observed in May '41 Romanians with 47mm Bohlers guns as Infantry guns without any AP shells and reported that as an observation. One thing to bear in mind is that Halder wished only to allow a dozen Romanian Divs to participate in Barbarossa, only 3 offensively and had resticted the missions training regime accordingly and some helpful minion was trying to come up with 'claims' to support this direction... the 1st thing I do in game is to immediately set about retiring and replacing f'ing Halder!
10.) Sorry for some repetition, but thanks again for looking into it, cheers MontBrun.
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