Question about men "lost in surf" during unload

Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (Full Version)

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crazydave1066 -> Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/18/2019 9:44:51 PM)
What exactly does this mean? Forgive me, I'm admittedly kind of a noob in the wargaming scene. What is being simulated when it says men are lost in the surf? Does it mean they drown during the unload or something?

RangerJoe -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/18/2019 9:50:59 PM)
Yes, read about the Tarawa invasion and you will realize exactly what happens.

crazydave1066 -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/18/2019 9:58:00 PM)
Just read up on it. Sounds like something planning an attack would help with in game terms?

RangerJoe -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/18/2019 10:02:49 PM)
Yes it does. Planning also helps keep the disruption down after the landing as well. But unload a bunch of supplies with the invasion since that help heal the unit.

spence -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/19/2019 3:17:16 AM)
Handling a boat in the surf is quite difficult. The waves are hitting the boat from behind which acts to make the rudder less effective. The US Navy had the advantage in handling surf since the US Coast Guard, which had been incorporated as part of the Navy in November 1941 had many small boat coxswains who had experience handling their boats in the surf at the many lifeboat stations along the US coast. None of the Axis countries had a similar military service.

RangerJoe -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/19/2019 9:14:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: spence Handling a boat in the surf is quite difficult. The waves are hitting the boat from behind which acts to make the rudder less effective. The US Navy had the advantage in handling surf since the US Coast Guard, which had been incorporated as part of the Navy in November 1941 had many small boat coxswains who had experience handling their boats in the surf at the many lifeboat stations along the US coast. None of the Axis countries had a similar military service. The Coast Guard was still separate. The actor Eddie Albert was a Coast Guard officer on landing craft in the Pacific during WWII. He was in the television show Green Acres.

HansBolter -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/19/2019 11:36:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe quote: ORIGINAL: spence Handling a boat in the surf is quite difficult. The waves are hitting the boat from behind which acts to make the rudder less effective. The US Navy had the advantage in handling surf since the US Coast Guard, which had been incorporated as part of the Navy in November 1941 had many small boat coxswains who had experience handling their boats in the surf at the many lifeboat stations along the US coast. None of the Axis countries had a similar military service. The Coast Guard was still separate. The actor Eddie Albert was a Coast Guard officer on landing craft in the Pacific during WWII. He was in the television show Green Acres. He was also decorated for his bravery in action at Tarawa. IIRC he spotted a group of marines pinned down on a wreck in the lagoon and went in under fire to bring them off.

HansBolter -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/19/2019 11:39:35 AM)
I get the lost in surf message more often when I'm reloading after an invasion than when unloading on the beaches. Probably because I rarely have troops unload on a beach with low preparation for the target.

RangerJoe -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/19/2019 11:55:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe quote: ORIGINAL: spence Handling a boat in the surf is quite difficult. The waves are hitting the boat from behind which acts to make the rudder less effective. The US Navy had the advantage in handling surf since the US Coast Guard, which had been incorporated as part of the Navy in November 1941 had many small boat coxswains who had experience handling their boats in the surf at the many lifeboat stations along the US coast. None of the Axis countries had a similar military service. The Coast Guard was still separate. The actor Eddie Albert was a Coast Guard officer on landing craft in the Pacific during WWII. He was in the television show Green Acres. He was also decorated for his bravery in action at Tarawa. IIRC he spotted a group of marines pinned down on a wreck in the lagoon and went in under fire to bring them off. He was awarded the Bronze Star. quote: Despite his accomplishments in acting, Albert went on record to say that the day he served as a landing craft commander at Tarawa was the accomplishment that meant the most to him. He passed away in 2005 of pneumonia at the age of 99. https://www.military.com/veteran-jobs/career-advice/military-transition/famous-veteran-eddie-albert.html quote: Eddie Albert Heimberger was famous for his acting skills but few know of his heroism in WW2. Eddie in the battle of Tarawa disobeyed his orders to collect reusable supplies from the initial landing and instead rescued over 40 marines who were trapped offshore under heavy machine gun fire. [&o][&o][&o] https://ss.sites.mtu.edu/mhugl/2016/10/16/eddie-albert-in-the-battle-of-tarawa/ Apparently, he also spent a night with Lieutenant Colonel Evans Fordyce Carlson the leader of the Carlson’s Raiders. [;)]

Dili -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/19/2019 12:57:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter I get the lost in surf message more often when I'm reloading after an invasion than when unloading on the beaches. Probably because I rarely have troops unload on a beach with low preparation for the target. I think you can get troops lost even if you load in a base you already conquered, but don't have a port and you cant dock the ship. Specially if the ship is a xAK or xAP and the equipment is heavy. I think this are the factors that matter(random order): ship type equipment load cost preparation port size hex ownership naval support?

RangerJoe -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/19/2019 1:40:17 PM)
Yes, troops can be lost loading and unloading if not docked.

Macclan5 -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/19/2019 1:58:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dili naval support? This is what I "think" (as well) although I am no expert in the engine mechanics. In embarking / reembarking equipment amphibiously i.e. especially ARM / ART ? INF - if you have Naval support you minimize or avoid losses. Like Hans I rarely loose anything on embarking - I wait till prep is 100% or darn near. A USN Naval ENG / "Naval A Port Services" etc / Naval Construction seems to mitigate the loss - at least that is my anecdotal supposition

spence -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/19/2019 2:01:02 PM)
quote: The Coast Guard was still separate. Legally the Coast Guard was transferred from the Treasury Department to the Navy Department in November 1941 by Presidential Executive Order (it now serves in the Homeland Security Dept but since its inception in 1790 has always been the 5th branch of the US military).

RangerJoe -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/19/2019 2:49:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: spence quote: The Coast Guard was still separate. Legally the Coast Guard was transferred from the Treasury Department to the Navy Department in November 1941 by Presidential Executive Order (it now serves in the Homeland Security Dept but since its inception in 1790 has always been the 5th branch of the US military). There are only four branches of the US military: Army, Navy, Coast Guard, and Air Force. In time of war, the Coast Guard is now transferred to the Department of Defense. It used to be transferred either to the War Department or the Department of the Navy. The Coast Guard as such was a combination of at least three smaller organizations.

spence -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/19/2019 3:06:30 PM)
quote: There are only four branches of the US military: Army, Navy, Coast Guard, and Air Force. The "jarheads" are gonna be really pi$$ed with you. Even if it's technically true they're not gonna be very happy being put in the same "jar" as the "squids".

RangerJoe -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/19/2019 3:56:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: spence quote: There are only four branches of the US military: Army, Navy, Coast Guard, and Air Force. The "jarheads" are gonna be really pi$$ed with you. Even if it's technically true they're not gonna be very happy being put in the same "jar" as the "squids". I remind the jarheads that they joined the US Navy as infantrymen. All Marines are infantry first.

BBfanboy -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/19/2019 5:40:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe Yes, troops can be lost loading and unloading if not docked. Even if docked! In my first GC after I bought the game I did not understand the limits about Port Sizes and loading costs. I wanted to remove the BF/CD unit on Addu island so I sent a small xAP to get them. It loaded the squads nicely but when it got to the 6" CD guns, I got a message about one being dropped in the water. (The ship was docked at the level 1 port). I thought that was some kind of anomaly so I left the ship another turn. Another gun was dropped in the water. It occurred to me that maybe I needed a cargo ship to hoist the guns aboard so I sent the xAP back to Colombo and sent an xAKL in Transport mode and put the CD guns remaining in Strategic Move mode. Docked the xAKL and tried loading - and another gun dropped in the water. Down to one gun now. So I decided to put the xAKL in Amphib mode and set the gun to go into combat mode again. Docked the ship and dropped the gun in the water! Call it part of the learning cliff. I queried the events on the forum and learned that a level one port probably can't handle that size/weight of equipment because of pier or crane limitations (abstracted to the loading algorithm). I suspended my plans to evacuate Diego Garcia and built the port to level 3 before sending a transport force to load the unit there. No problems.

BBfanboy -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/19/2019 5:50:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Macclan5 quote: ORIGINAL: Dili naval support? This is what I "think" (as well) although I am no expert in the engine mechanics. In embarking / reembarking equipment amphibiously i.e. especially ARM / ART ? INF - if you have Naval support you minimize or avoid losses. Like Hans I rarely loose anything on embarking - I wait till prep is 100% or darn near. A USN Naval ENG / "Naval A Port Services" etc / Naval Construction seems to mitigate the loss - at least that is my anecdotal supposition Naval Construction units do not help with loading, they just build the port facilities needed to do the loading. You may have been thinking of the Naval Support squads in Naval HQs which (in stock scenarios at least) do help with loading. I presume this to mean the HQ can hire local stevedores to help load. And of course the Port Service Units you mention have 30 NS squads so they help a lot too. Another potential help with loading are the "Barges" or "LCTs" to the Allies. They act like lighters in transferring loads to/from undocked ships and directly to shore (not the jetty AFAIK) because they are categorized as landing craft. Similarly the US "Amphibious Truck" units help with such transfer. They show only squads in the unit, so I guess each squad gets an imputed landing craft to transfer the load. And another interesting wrinkle, barges and LCTs have no Victory Points attached so their loss is just a loss of capability and the loss of an Amphib Truck squad would only entail the VPs for loss of a support type squad.

Dili -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/20/2019 3:11:38 PM)
Nice story about 6" guns BBfanboy never happened to me with coastal artillery unit that arrives in Wake island post conquest (JFB here) , it has 8" guns, the port is 1 size, i also use an xAKL and dock but i can only get 1 8" gun per trip.

BBfanboy -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/20/2019 3:32:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dili Nice story about 6" guns BBfanboy never happened to me with coastal artillery unit that arrives in Wake island post conquest (JFB here) , it has 8" guns, the port is 1 size, i also use an xAKL and dock but i can only get 1 8" gun per trip. I presume that is during the IJ "landing bonus" period? I know unloading troops is expedited during the bonus but I am not sure if it helps with big items>

GI Jive -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/20/2019 4:41:57 PM)
quote: The actor Eddie Albert was a Coast Guard officer on landing craft in the Pacific during WWII. A small correction: At the time of his heroic service during the Tarawa landing, E. A. Heimberger was a Lieutenant(jg) in the U.S. Naval Reserve.

Dili -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/20/2019 6:52:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: Dili Nice story about 6" guns BBfanboy never happened to me with coastal artillery unit that arrives in Wake island post conquest (JFB here) , it has 8" guns, the port is 1 size, i also use an xAKL and dock but i can only get 1 8" gun per trip. I presume that is during the IJ "landing bonus" period? I know unloading troops is expedited during the bonus but I am not sure if it helps with big items> Yes it will be under "landing" bonus timeline but this is "unlanding" so i don't know if it is affected. The coastal unit arrives in Wake, but i take it out because Wake is just not that an important island to defended by 8".

RangerJoe -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/21/2019 1:35:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dili quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: Dili Nice story about 6" guns BBfanboy never happened to me with coastal artillery unit that arrives in Wake island post conquest (JFB here) , it has 8" guns, the port is 1 size, i also use an xAKL and dock but i can only get 1 8" gun per trip. I presume that is during the IJ "landing bonus" period? I know unloading troops is expedited during the bonus but I am not sure if it helps with big items> Yes it will be under "landing" bonus timeline but this is "unlanding" so i don't know if it is affected. The coastal unit arrives in Wake, but i take it out because Wake is just not that an important island to defended by 8". The CD unit that is a Wake is a reinforcement, it just shows up.

BBfanboy -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/21/2019 2:34:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe quote: ORIGINAL: Dili quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: Dili Nice story about 6" guns BBfanboy never happened to me with coastal artillery unit that arrives in Wake island post conquest (JFB here) , it has 8" guns, the port is 1 size, i also use an xAKL and dock but i can only get 1 8" gun per trip. I presume that is during the IJ "landing bonus" period? I know unloading troops is expedited during the bonus but I am not sure if it helps with big items> Yes it will be under "landing" bonus timeline but this is "unlanding" so i don't know if it is affected. The coastal unit arrives in Wake, but i take it out because Wake is just not that an important island to defended by 8". The CD unit that is a Wake is a reinforcement, it just shows up. Yes, he said it arrives in Wake but he is removing it to use elsewhere and is having no problems with the loading. I think Wake starts with a level 3 port.

Dili -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/21/2019 3:05:50 AM)
Level 1 Port Btw load coast of the 8" actually is -20cm 41YT CD gun- is 176

rustysi -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/21/2019 3:06:33 PM)
Bring in a Naval HQ to use its NS devices to help the move.

Gridley380 -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/23/2019 1:54:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: Macclan5 A USN Naval ENG / "Naval A Port Services" etc / Naval Construction seems to mitigate the loss - at least that is my anecdotal supposition Naval Construction units do not help with loading, they just build the port facilities needed to do the loading. You may have been thinking of the Naval Support squads in Naval HQs which (in stock scenarios at least) do help with loading. I presume this to mean the HQ can hire local stevedores to help load. And of course the Port Service Units you mention have 30 NS squads so they help a lot too. Some scenarios (including Babes) have the USN "Special Construction Battalions" which were closely related to the standard CB's, but were optimized for unloading ships in forward bases. They actually built a mockup of a Liberty Ship on land at one of the training sites. 39 such battalions were formed during the war. Babes models them as having some squads which can help with unloading.

Macclan5 -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/23/2019 2:43:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: Macclan5 This is what I "think" (as well) although I am no expert in the engine mechanics. In embarking / reembarking equipment amphibiously i.e. especially ARM / ART ? INF - if you have Naval support you minimize or avoid losses. Like Hans I rarely loose anything on embarking - I wait till prep is 100% or darn near. A USN Naval ENG / "Naval A Port Services" etc / Naval Construction seems to mitigate the loss - at least that is my anecdotal supposition Naval Construction units do not help with loading, they just build the port facilities needed to do the loading. You may have been thinking of the Naval Support squads in Naval HQs which (in stock scenarios at least) do help with loading. I presume this to mean the HQ can hire local stevedores to help load. And of course the Port Service Units you mention have 30 NS squads so they help a lot too. Another potential help with loading are the "Barges" or "LCTs" to the Allies. They act like lighters in transferring loads to/from undocked ships and directly to shore (not the jetty AFAIK) because they are categorized as landing craft. Similarly the US "Amphibious Truck" units help with such transfer. They show only squads in the unit, so I guess each squad gets an imputed landing craft to transfer the load. And another interesting wrinkle, barges and LCTs have no Victory Points attached so their loss is just a loss of capability and the loss of an Amphib Truck squad would only entail the VPs for loss of a support type squad. Thanks BB Very good clarification. I am not sure if I was being inexact - or confused in my own right.. but I will pay closer attention now [8D]

Kull -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/23/2019 4:01:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy You may have been thinking of the Naval Support squads in Naval HQs which (in stock scenarios at least) do help with loading. I presume this to mean the HQ can hire local stevedores to help load. And of course the Port Service Units you mention have 30 NS squads so they help a lot too. Not to sidetrack from the original discussion, but just be aware that Naval Support squads do NOTHING when located in bases that start off with "Port Size = 0". Regardless of whether the Port is built up to 1, 2, or even the maximum of 3.

rustysi -> RE: Question about men "lost in surf" during unload (9/27/2019 8:10:58 PM)
quote: just be aware that Naval Support squads do NOTHING when located in bases that start off with "Port Size = 0". Regardless of whether the Port is built up Yeah, intended or not that crept into the code rather late. As a matter of fact its not even that way in the last official update (IIRC), only the beta. With that said the beta is still recommended as it has some other important fixes.

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