PBY's with depth charges (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition



Message

tacticon -> PBY's with depth charges (9/25/2019 10:18:40 PM)

Is there a way to edit the PBY's to carry depth charges when on ASW missions? I don't want to lose the bomb option but have better weapon loadouts for different missions.



btd64 -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/25/2019 10:33:53 PM)

Check out the RHS mod. Sid uses depth bombs for ASW patrols. So yes there is a way....GP



Ian R -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/26/2019 2:57:22 AM)

You need to set the device load filters for different mission profiles in the Aircraft database.

The specifics of this are to be found in the update files with the various patches.

The isolated answer to your question is go into the editor, and find the PBY-5 - which should be on line 466.

Then on the first vacant line in the load outs section - which is probably the line "wpn7" -

1. Type 1845 in the left hand box - that should give you device 1845, being Mk VII Aircraft depth charge.

2. Type "4" in the 'num' column

3. Set the facing column to 12 ('external')

4. Type 64 in the 'filter column'

NOTE: ASW missions seem to use extended range loadouts, so ...

Hit the button that flicks over to the lines for wpn 11-20 and repeat the process.

Your PBY's should now carry depth charges on ASW missions.



Ian R -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/26/2019 3:34:12 AM)

Below is my AD-1 loadout detail in my mod.

The filter numbers are a progression where you can sum the numbers designating specific missions and double up.

2 is ship attack

4 is alt ship attack - so they fly with a 2000 lber on the centreline hard point and 500lbrs on the wing racks.

17 is for attacking all sorts of ground things - could be the sum of facility and city attack filter number designators IIRC.

40 is attacking ground units.

(as indicated above 64 is ASW)

There are some threads on this back in pre-2016 when Michael included them in a patch.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/VVSH9bS.jpg[/image]

[image]https://i.imgur.com/3tuW4dm.jpg[/image]



inqistor -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/26/2019 10:44:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Below is my AD-1 loadout detail in my mod.

The filter numbers are a progression where you can sum the numbers designating specific missions and double up.

2 is ship attack

4 is alt ship attack - so they fly with a 2000 lber on the centreline hard point and 500lbrs on the wing racks.

To be specific - with "alt" you define what will be carried instead of torpedo. Otherwise it will be default (2x250 for TB, and 1x250+4x60 for 2E)

quote:

There are some threads on this back in pre-2016 when Michael included them in a patch.

Yeah. Don't forget that those filters works ONLY with beta patch.

But I think, the only difference between ASW, and normal bomb is range definition, which defines up to what depth ASW can make an attack. But does Submarines under air attack have time to actually dive?



Gridley380 -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/26/2019 12:51:07 PM)

Ian R, thank you very much for those details.



Ian R -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/26/2019 12:51:27 PM)

Symon/John, I think, clarified that because of the order in which the exe processes things, you cannot put an "ASW" weapon on an aircraft - there is no sub-phase in the air attack routines where it will use it.

Basically, the so called "aircraft ASW weapons" in the database are modeled as GP bombs, but tweaked so that the assigned device values interact with the exe routines to make them effective against subs.

As a result, you will see patrol flying boats and bombers drop DCs and 600lb ASW bombs on ships they come across on search. Such is life.




Gridley380 -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/26/2019 1:13:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

As a result, you will see patrol flying boats and bombers drop DCs and 600lb ASW bombs on ships they come across on search. Such is life.



Not unprecedented in reality - I seem to recall some of the Avengers off Samar were loaded for ASW and found creative uses for their ordnance against Kurita's ships. :-)

Does this lack of explicit ASW modeling help explain why air-to-sub kills are so rare?



Ian R -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/26/2019 1:34:58 PM)

I'd have to find the thread again... but between sighting, and being bombed, I think the sub gets a chance to submerge.

I also think it might depend on whether the sub has air search radar, crew skill, skipper's naval rating and the usual random number generation.



Gridley380 -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/26/2019 1:50:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I'd have to find the thread again... but between sighting, and being bombed, I think the sub gets a chance to submerge.

I also think it might depend on whether the sub has air search radar, crew skill, skipper's naval rating and the usual random number generation.


Sorry, I should clarify - I'd expect the chance of a damaging hit on any given air-to-sub attack to be fairly low (as you note, the sub should get a chance to crash dive, not to mention the problems of hitting a small object in a big ocean). However while I see what I consider to be a realistic amount of damaging hits, I don't see a lot of sinkings. I don't recall how many IJN subs were lost to air attack, but we got a lot of U-Boats that way, so I wonder if there's something in the code/modeling that makes a sinking unlikely? Or am I not using my ASW aircraft properly?



BBfanboy -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/26/2019 2:07:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I'd have to find the thread again... but between sighting, and being bombed, I think the sub gets a chance to submerge.

I also think it might depend on whether the sub has air search radar, crew skill, skipper's naval rating and the usual random number generation.

And weather. Clouds give the aircraft a chance to approach the sub more closely without being seen, or they might hide the sub from search.

Radar does not detect all the time, it is modeled with the chance to increase D/L, if I understood Alfred's post correctly.



Ian R -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/26/2019 2:08:07 PM)

I think we need to search up that thread and see what Symon said about it.

From vague recollection, having ASW patrols mostly pushes the subs under water so they can't see what is around to attack. There is no separate phase for air ASW attacks, so they work like the nav search attacks -you get an occasional lucky hit, depending on the pilot skill, the weather, whether the sub dives [see above] and some other die rolls.



BBfanboy -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/26/2019 2:12:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I'd have to find the thread again... but between sighting, and being bombed, I think the sub gets a chance to submerge.

I also think it might depend on whether the sub has air search radar, crew skill, skipper's naval rating and the usual random number generation.


Sorry, I should clarify - I'd expect the chance of a damaging hit on any given air-to-sub attack to be fairly low (as you note, the sub should get a chance to crash dive, not to mention the problems of hitting a small object in a big ocean). However while I see what I consider to be a realistic amount of damaging hits, I don't see a lot of sinkings. I don't recall how many IJN subs were lost to air attack, but we got a lot of U-Boats that way, so I wonder if there's something in the code/modeling that makes a sinking unlikely? Or am I not using my ASW aircraft properly?

I have no evidence, but I think aircraft altitude might have something to do with this. My impression is because the aircraft I have on Naval Search at 6000 feet can detect subs but attacks are quite rare, while the aircraft I have on ASW at 2000 feet get more attacks. How much of that is because an ASW patrol does a more intensive search (halving the range set) and how much is because it starts out lower and would be spotted by the sub coming over the horizon at closer range, I don't know. The lower altitude also helps with bombing accuracy, of course.



Alfred -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/26/2019 2:31:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Below is my AD-1 loadout detail in my mod.

The filter numbers are a progression where you can sum the numbers designating specific missions and double up.

2 is ship attack

4 is alt ship attack - so they fly with a 2000 lber on the centreline hard point and 500lbrs on the wing racks.

To be specific - with "alt" you define what will be carried instead of torpedo. Otherwise it will be default (2x250 for TB, and 1x250+4x60 for 2E)

quote:

There are some threads on this back in pre-2016 when Michael included them in a patch.

Yeah. Don't forget that those filters works ONLY with beta patch.

But I think, the only difference between ASW, and normal bomb is range definition, which defines up to what depth ASW can make an attack. But does Submarines under air attack have time to actually dive?


Not true.

New players must understand this. Frequently you will come across a post which claims that "x" is only available if using the latest beta. This is almost always incorrect, with that feature/fix etc being already found in the last, comprehensive official patch. There is a myth accorded to the post last official patch betas which is simply not warranted on the facts.

Alfred



Alfred -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/26/2019 2:34:56 PM)

Flying a 6k Naval Search mission is just not comparable to flying a 2k ASW mission.  The altitude is totally irrelevant.  An ASW mission will always perform better against submarines.  The clue is found in the name of the mission and in several of my earlier posts.

Alfred



BBfanboy -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/26/2019 3:50:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Flying a 6k Naval Search mission is just not comparable to flying a 2k ASW mission.  The altitude is totally irrelevant.  An ASW mission will always perform better against submarines.  The clue is found in the name of the mission and in several of my earlier posts.

Alfred

Thanks for the clarification Alfred!



AW1Steve -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/26/2019 3:58:36 PM)

Just to further "muddy the water" so to speak, I hope you folks understand what an aerial depth charge is versus a ship's depth charge. An aerial depth charge is a bomb. That's all. A normal , aircraft bomb with one minor change. Instead of a contact or "normal fuse", it has a hydrostatic fuse set to explode ay a particular depth. The aircraft generally does not carry the "ash can" used by ships. It the case of a heavy or medium bomber (or anything with a actual bomb bay) it could , but what would be the point? An "ash can" is NOT aerodynamically shaped , so it would add tremendous drag and would probably "wobble" when dropped. Further more it would tremendously add to the burden of a carrier's magazine to have to carry extra ordnance. As it is , bombs are not fused till just before launch (when they are "built" by the ship or squadron's ordinancemen) so there is no extra step or bother. Same bomb , different fuse. So a 100lb, 500 lb or even theoretically a 1000lb bomb could be built. NOT the 600-750 lb monster that a ship uses. [:)]



tacticon -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/27/2019 6:20:32 PM)

First, I would like to thank Ian for the terrific example he provided. Also, AW1Steve for explanation of Aerial Depth charges. As a bonus, I drew the attention of Alfred, so I am honored.

1. I use version 26b, Scenario 1, Slot 1845 is blank. If some could provide me with the statistics or screen shot of the AC ASW device they use, I would appreciate it.

2. Since database depth charge devices have 0 in penetration and Subs have 0 armor, does that mean that penetration is not relevant when no armor is present?

3. I understand that a standard bomb is used to create an ASW device. Since effect is based on the bomb size, the only other factor is accuracy. Hydrostatic fuses must have been more accurate then contact fuses (else why use them). If the Mk9 DC gives us the upper limit acc of 30 and a 500lb GP bomb is 12, then a 250lb ASW Bomb should be somewhere between. So if we split the difference and put the accuracy at 21, am I in the ballpark?

4. This brings me to the what the expected weapon loadout would be for a Catalina. The Cats could carry 4000Lb, but It appears that they had 4 external weapon hard points. So, would 4 500lb ASW Weapons with an accuracy of 27 (spitting the difference again) be a proper loadout for a PBY flying an ASW mission? Is 27 still way too much, because that could yield one dead sub per attack?



inqistor -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/27/2019 7:15:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tacticon
1. I use version 26b, Scenario 1, Slot 1845 is blank. If some could provide me with the statistics or screen shot of the AC ASW device they use, I would appreciate it.

2. Since database depth charge devices have 0 in penetration and Subs have 0 armor, does that mean that penetration is not relevant when no armor is present?

This must be some mod, as no official game scenario uses bombload profiling, so no plane uses dedicated ASW weapons.
In his RHS mod, el Cid actually uses armor for submarines, so you would have to ask him, as I'm sure he made some tests for that.

quote:

3. I understand that a standard bomb is used to create an ASW device. Since effect is based on the bomb size, the only other factor is accuracy. Hydrostatic fuses must have been more accurate then contact fuses (else why use them). If the Mk9 DC gives us the upper limit acc of 30 and a 500lb GP bomb is 12, then a 250lb ASW Bomb should be somewhere between. So if we split the difference and put the accuracy at 21, am I in the ballpark?

I think the only value used to determine damage is value of effect field. And that one is directly based on weight of charge in bomb. I had somewhere actual statistics for US ASW bombs, but never bothered to enter them. Here are values for Japanese 180kg ASW bomb, taken directly from Japanese Ordnance Manual. Their ASW bombs had thinner shell, and used slightly more charge.

quote:

4. This brings me to the what the expected weapon loadout would be for a Catalina. The Cats could carry 4000Lb, but It appears that they had 4 external weapon hard points. So, would 4 500lb ASW Weapons with an accuracy of 27 (spitting the difference again) be a proper loadout for a PBY flying an ASW mission? Is 27 still way too much, because that could yield one dead sub per attack?

Just remember to add it in extended range bombload. I don't think any of my submarines were actually sunk by plane. In most cases they cause moderate damage, and submarine can limp to port safely.
First, plane have to detect submarine, which is actually rare, then it have to make an attack, which is even rarer. You are probably safe to even set it to 100. I have never discovered what accuracy value in case of bomb represents. For gun, it is RoF, for Torpedoes, their speed, but bomb?

[image]local://upfiles/35065/58D494D13FF045C38219F8E805677543.jpg[/image]



Alfred -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/28/2019 4:18:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Just to further "muddy the water" so to speak, I hope you folks understand what an aerial depth charge is versus a ship's depth charge. An aerial depth charge is a bomb. That's all. A normal , aircraft bomb with one minor change. Instead of a contact or "normal fuse", it has a hydrostatic fuse set to explode ay a particular depth. The aircraft generally does not carry the "ash can" used by ships. It the case of a heavy or medium bomber (or anything with a actual bomb bay) it could , but what would be the point? An "ash can" is NOT aerodynamically shaped , so it would add tremendous drag and would probably "wobble" when dropped. Further more it would tremendously add to the burden of a carrier's magazine to have to carry extra ordnance. As it is , bombs are not fused till just before launch (when they are "built" by the ship or squadron's ordinancemen) so there is no extra step or bother. Same bomb , different fuse. So a 100lb, 500 lb or even theoretically a 1000lb bomb could be built. NOT the 600-750 lb monster that a ship uses. [:)]


Which is why there is no air dropped depth charge in AE. The code does not include such a device type nor do the combat algorithms recognise such a weapon. It is only an air dropped bomb, which can be dropped on any type of vessel. Modders who don't get it right have no grounds for subsequently complaining that their fudged depth charges are being dropped on enemy carriers.

Alfred



Alfred -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/28/2019 4:31:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tacticon

First, I would like to thank Ian for the terrific example he provided. Also, AW1Steve for explanation of Aerial Depth charges. As a bonus, I drew the attention of Alfred, so I am honored.

1. I use version 26b, Scenario 1, Slot 1845 is blank. If some could provide me with the statistics or screen shot of the AC ASW device they use, I would appreciate it.

2. Since database depth charge devices have 0 in penetration and Subs have 0 armor, does that mean that penetration is not relevant when no armor is present?

3. I understand that a standard bomb is used to create an ASW device. Since effect is based on the bomb size, the only other factor is accuracy. Hydrostatic fuses must have been more accurate then contact fuses (else why use them). If the Mk9 DC gives us the upper limit acc of 30 and a 500lb GP bomb is 12, then a 250lb ASW Bomb should be somewhere between. So if we split the difference and put the accuracy at 21, am I in the ballpark?

4. This brings me to the what the expected weapon loadout would be for a Catalina. The Cats could carry 4000Lb, but It appears that they had 4 external weapon hard points. So, would 4 500lb ASW Weapons with an accuracy of 27 (spitting the difference again) be a proper loadout for a PBY flying an ASW mission? Is 27 still way too much, because that could yield one dead sub per attack?



Penetration is only a relevant input to combat algorithms which involve armour.

Just because a field exists, don't assume that the data in that field is actually used by the code or that the field heading name is correct. Fields are standardised and some data must be inputted even if the field is not used or is handed differently by the code than its name implies.

Aerial ASW combat algorithms are quite different from naval QASW combat algorithms. Don't assume that hydrostatic fuses are a relevant factor in AE.

Terminus once provided the historical PTO results which saw only 10 IJN subs directly sunk by aerial attack compared to 60 by naval action. ETO praxis and results are not relevant for the PTO and therefore AE.

Alfred



Ian R -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/28/2019 6:55:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tacticon


1. I use version 26b, Scenario 1, Slot 1845 is blank. If some could provide me with the statistics or screen shot of the AC ASW device they use, I would appreciate it.




Have a look at line 86 in the device database - Hopefully it will be the "600 lb ASW Bomb."

If not, the numbers are -
Type 03 - GP Bomb
upgrade - 0
side 01 - allied
available 4112
no end date
build rate, pool & range are all 0
accuracy - 28
penetration - 54
effect- 600
ceiling , armor and dud rate are all 0
anti-armor is 54
Anti-soft is 38
load cost is 600
alt device and alt use are both 0.

As discussed, this is modeled as a GP bomb, so that it works within the turn execution sequence. I think I may have borrowed it from Sid.

They do work, at least occasionally. Of the approximately 240 IJN subs of all types sunk up to mid 1946 in my current campaign (modified tier 3 ironman), 5 have been 'sunk' by Mk VII air dropped DCs, and 2 by 600lb ASW bombs. Approximately 15% of sinkings were sub v sub torpedo hits. Naval depth charges was the second biggest contributor. By far the most efficient killer of IJN subs has, however, been bombing them in port.

Looking at the sinkings list I noticed a couple of causes I hadn't seen before - "Operational casualty" and "marine casualty". Only the SSXs had that, along with groundings and hit obstructions.

And one of my BBs sunk the I2 with a 14" shell.

quote:

Sub attack near San Francisco at 216,70

Japanese Ships
SS I-2, hits 20, and is sunk

Allied Ships
LSI(M) Prince Henry, Torpedo hits 1
AM Strive
AM Champion
APA Heywood
APA Leonard Wood
APA J. Franklin Bell
APA Henry T. Allen
APA Harris
APA Wharton
AKA Procyon
AKA Arcturus
DE LeHardy
BB Oklahoma

Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

SS I-2 launches 2 torpedoes at LSI(M) Prince Henry
DE LeHardy attacking submerged sub ....
SS I-2 forced to surface!
DE LeHardy firing on surfaced sub ....
BB Oklahoma firing on surfaced sub ....
Sub slips beneath the waves



fcooke -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/28/2019 8:16:58 AM)

14" shell sinking sub! Next thing you know someone will have an 18.1" nailing a PT boat! [:D]



Ian R -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/28/2019 1:38:34 PM)

"PTxxx obliterated"



BBfanboy -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/28/2019 11:28:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

"PTxxx obliterated"

No, probably more like" 14" shell passes through PT boat without detonating. Portholes installed"



BBfanboy -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (9/28/2019 11:30:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

14" shell sinking sub! Next thing you know someone will have an 18.1" nailing a PT boat! [:D]

I think the Yamatos have occasionally hit a PT with their big guns, but turnabout is fair play and Greyjoy's PT nailed all nine of Yamato's 18.1" guns [magazine explodes!].



tacticon -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (10/4/2019 6:13:35 AM)

Device Effect Acc Bombs Loaded Real Effect
100lb Bomb 100 5 40 200
250lb Bomb 250 12 16 480
500lb Bomb 500 25 8 1000
1000lb Bomb 1000 50 4 2000
2000lb Bomb 2000 80 2 3200
4000lb Bomb 4000 90 1 3600

Data taken from Stock Scenario 1.

My question is why a larger bomb should have a higher accuracy. I understand why a faster torpedo or a higher rate of fire for a gun would have higher accuracy. All bombs fall at relatively the same speed. Pilot skill and release altitude would also be factors, but shouldn’t these factors effect all bombs equally? I realize that the larger bomb would have a larger kill radius, but a kill radius does not double as the bomb yield doubles. There is a diminishing return on bomb’s kill radius. My guess would be that this is a balancing attribute, because the other factors in the game engine may make it too difficult to hit with larger bombs.

Using the data above, a single 4000lb bomb would be the must effective ASW device. A 12000lb Tall Boy would not have to explode, it could just land on a sub 98% of the time and just drag it under.



Yaab -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (10/4/2019 7:48:06 AM)

Bomb accuracy is a non-issue, since most ASW missions set by players fly at 1000-2000 feet. At this altitude, all bombs seem to be equally accurate. But try flying any bombing mission at 10,000 feet with 100lb bombs and you will not hit a damn thing. Thus, aircraft with smaller bombs have to go lower to hit anything and face more flak in the process.



fcooke -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (10/4/2019 9:24:37 AM)

It would be impressive if so, but perhaps the larger bombs are given more credit for their 'mining' effect? After all, there is a significant difference in having a 250lb bomb exploding 50' from the hull as opposed to a 4000lber. Never thought of a Tallboy as an ASW weapon, but what a weapon that would be against a poor 1000 ton sub. Or even an I-400 (what were those like 4000 tons?).



tacticon -> RE: PBY's with depth charges (10/4/2019 6:54:51 PM)

Hi Yaab,

I accept your observations that small bombs are less accurate when dropped at high altitude. So, if a 5% accuracy is not cause of the inaccuracy then what is? A 100lb Bomb and a 4000lb bomb should have nearly the same free fall characteristics, with the 4000lb bomb having slightly more drag due the larger surface area. I assume that the smaller bomb would be somewhat more susceptible to cross winds due to having lower kinetic energy. I would expect that the weather variations would not effect bombs in free fall significantly unless there were thunderstorms in the hex. Weather would affect the target acquisition of the bombardier much more than the bombs free fall. That effect would still happen regardless of bomb size.

Historically, soft ground targets like troops would be attacked with a large number of small bombs because this spreads out the kill radius over a larger area. A hardened or concentrated industrial target would require a larger bomb like a 2000lb and a bunker or uboat pen would require a 4000lb bomb. It seems that the stock game uses the 500lb bomb for most mission involving level bombers. This may be how the game engine was tuned. If that is the case than using larger bombs would inflate the bomb damage too much and using bombs too small would result suppressing bomb damage too much.

Device Effect Acc Bombs Loaded Real Effect
100lb Bomb 100 0.25 40 1000
250lb Bomb 250 0.25 16 1000
500lb Bomb 500 0.25 8 1000
1000lb Bomb 1000 0.25 4 1000
2000lb Bomb 2000 0.25 2 1000
4000lb Bomb 4000 0.25 1 1000

So, what if we changed the accuracy of all bombs to 25%. Now any combination of 4000lbs worth of bombs yield the same real effect over time. 100lb bombs would still be worthless against hardened or armored targets but would more consistent in hitting soft targets. I know a lot of this is speculation and conjecture, but I would rather run this by the gallery and find out what the collective wisdom is before I waste my time running tests.

One other request, I have not been able to locate a full list of weapon filters in the forum. Can someone add any additional values to the list that Ian was kind enough to post.



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
2.296875