Bocage vs Cropland and Cropland vs Open terrain (at 10 mi/hex scale)? (Full Version)

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Xenomorph -> Bocage vs Cropland and Cropland vs Open terrain (at 10 mi/hex scale)? (10/8/2019 5:52:52 PM)

Hello all,

(Note: Even though I'm asking this for map-making purposes, I didn't want to put it in the Mods section because this question pertains to actual game play as well.)

I suppose my real question is: what are croplands supposed to represent in TOAW? I'm creating a map at the 10mi/hex scale and "cropland" terrain can mean different things at that scale. In the eastern US for example, cropland at 10mi/hex would include open fields but also a fair number of patches of woods (often even a mile across) and/or tree lines that follow streams/rivers. These features would definitely play a role in combat operations so I'm wondering if TOAW models "cropland" as taking these features into account. I certainly don't want to classify these areas as bocage because I'm assuming "bocage" is meant to represent the Normandy, France-style bocage that hinders movement/combat far more significantly. On the "other-other" hand, the eastern US "cropland" I described above are actually often completely enclosed by some type of woods - just not the kind of woods the term "bocage" would imply.

Along those same lines, I'm wondering where people draw the line between "cropland" and simply "open" terrain. I've been through Kansas and Oklahoma enough that I view that as most definitely "open" terrain. (Wow, is it open! [:D] ). However, I'm thinking I'll have one *busy* looking map if those are the only types of terrain considered "open".

I know a lot of this may come down to a judgement call but any thoughts would be much appreciated!



Lobster -> RE: Bocage vs Cropland and Cropland vs Open terrain (at 10 mi/hex scale)? (10/8/2019 6:43:28 PM)

I don't use cropland. Perhaps on a scale of less than one kilometer per hex it would matter. But in larger scales cropland will pose an observation problem/benefit only during certain times of the year. And only for a short time. So if the time scale is also small then you might use cropland depending on the time of year. Some will argue that moving through cropland forces you to slow down when riding in a wheeled vehicle. But that would only be sometimes. It's just not a consistent enough terrain feature to bother with like a forest, hill or river is. Since it's only pertinent a fraction of the time why even bother at larger scales and long time periods?

As for light woods and forests that's a subjective call on the map maker's part. Some say if a hex is only covered by less than 50% of trees it's a forest. Otherwise it's not. Or 50% to 25% is light woods. Tiller doesn't even use light woods. It's forest or it's not.

But those are simply opinions and like belly buttons everyone has one. [;)]



r6kunz -> RE: Bocage vs Cropland and Cropland vs Open terrain (at 10 mi/hex scale)? (10/8/2019 8:55:26 PM)

Jack, I agree with not using cropland on several points. The cropland tiles have bothered me aesthetically since TOAWIV rolled out. When I look at a detailed topographical map, I find it hard to determine if it is, or was cropland.
Glad to see someone else had thought about that and came to the same conclusion.



Zovs -> RE: Bocage vs Cropland and Cropland vs Open terrain (at 10 mi/hex scale)? (10/8/2019 10:30:40 PM)

I have use croplands in the past and don't find them annoying at all, it just depends on how the designer uses them.



Simon Edmonds -> RE: Bocage vs Cropland and Cropland vs Open terrain (at 10 mi/hex scale)? (10/9/2019 5:07:28 AM)

G'day Zeno
With regards your comments on bocage the easiest way to define it is on Wikipedia. It gives you an idea of what to visually look for on Google Earth. You will find that similar terrain exists in other countries in europe.

Personally with forest I think it is a question of accessability. You can have a forest hex that in real life has few or no access roads or track. Then you can have another one that in real life has a multitude of logging roads and trails in it.

I think that cropland terrain should be renamed "intensive cropland" so that it is more self explanatory. If you look up a place called Samora Correia near Lisbon, Portugal there is some terrain that I personally believe is what cropland is.




cathar1244 -> RE: Bocage vs Cropland and Cropland vs Open terrain (at 10 mi/hex scale)? (10/9/2019 7:31:39 AM)

quote:

what are croplands supposed to represent in TOAW?


Same question could apply to light woods and perhaps rocky terrain. I think the bottom line is this -- look at the effects these tiles have in the game, and ask yourself if that effect is appropriate for the terrain you wish to depict.

Some of the tiles are distinctly "tactical" in their application ... if one literally accepts the name and artwork of the tile. Again, how game reckons combat does not depend on tile names and appearance.

My top "wish" for terrain is a tile that a scenario designer can define as to movement and combat effects, and provide the artwork for if desired.

Cheers



Hellen_slith -> RE: Bocage vs Cropland and Cropland vs Open terrain (at 10 mi/hex scale)? (10/9/2019 11:36:59 AM)

Apart from the aesthetics:

croplands:
plus 1 movement cost for motorized, mixed, and foot units;
1.5 times disengaging unit recon modifier (not cumulative);
anti-armor hit modifier and supply modifiers

this from the TOAW Reference Chart linked below (link opens a two page pdf file in a new window)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wtkQAr5_mFKL6HScshPMpbDhvW8oo8ZJ/view?usp=sharing




Lobster -> RE: Bocage vs Cropland and Cropland vs Open terrain (at 10 mi/hex scale)? (10/9/2019 1:28:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen_slith

Apart from the aesthetics:

croplands:
plus 1 movement cost for motorized, mixed, and foot units;
1.5 times disengaging unit recon modifier (not cumulative);
anti-armor hit modifier and supply modifiers

this from the TOAW Reference Chart linked below (link opens a two page pdf file in a new window)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wtkQAr5_mFKL6HScshPMpbDhvW8oo8ZJ/view?usp=sharing




Which is exactly why I don't use it. Those are made on the assumption the crops are all at full growth and the height of the crops are always two meters while at the same time the fields are freshly plowed so the furrows are at full height and they all run counter to the direction of movement so all movement has to go across them. Also it assumes all wheeled vehicles cross the fields instead of using the numerous unimproved roads that run along fields and the troops are walking across the fields when in fact if they are walking across the fields it's because they are deployed for combat and are already moving at a slower pace. At the same time, I have no idea where a field would be located 80 years ago. Agriculture was less intensive in Europe and much less mechanized. What is a field today could have been a forest in 1940. I would have to make stuff up. So because of the uncertainties and general assumptions of what a field is in TOAW I choose to err on the side of caution and not bother with it.

Perhaps sometime in the future there will be a TOAW that allows for a field to change it's impact on movement and combat based on the time of year. Or we can have different kinds of fields instead of one size fits all but poorly.



Xenomorph -> RE: Bocage vs Cropland and Cropland vs Open terrain (at 10 mi/hex scale)? (10/13/2019 3:02:03 PM)

Thanks for the help! Got a bit sidetracked with reality.

And hey! What other goodies are hiding out there like that TOAW Reference Card?? That thing is awesome!



Lobster -> RE: Bocage vs Cropland and Cropland vs Open terrain (at 10 mi/hex scale)? (10/13/2019 5:46:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xenomorph

Thanks for the help! Got a bit sidetracked with reality.

And hey! What other goodies are hiding out there like that TOAW Reference Card?? That thing is awesome!


I imagine much has been lost over the years.



Hellen_slith -> RE: Bocage vs Cropland and Cropland vs Open terrain (at 10 mi/hex scale)? (10/13/2019 6:00:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xenomorph

What other goodies are hiding out there like that TOAW Reference Card?? That thing is awesome!



The game also still has the old HTML help files planted on your HD. Sometimes I look at that, for me it is easier to navigate with its Index and embedded hyperlinks.

under x386/matrix games/ etc. it is called the "opart cw help" file, a compiled HTML type file. Double-click opens it.

On these forums, you will see that posts older than 365 days get archived. They are still accessible though, with some refined googy searches you can sometimes get into the older forums and find some good AARs and stuff from even the TOAWIII forums.

You'd be surprised what you can find out there ... one guy wrote a freaking thesis paper for a war college as I recall based around using TOAW in "official" wargaming w/ the US Mil.



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