How much does AI cheats ? (Full Version)

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yvesp -> How much does AI cheats ? (10/9/2019 11:12:00 PM)

I've now played two games, both up to 1943.

First time I played the allied and managed to crush the axis in 1943. Japan was the toughest.
Second time is still running, but I'm quite puzzled by what seems more and more obvious : the AI seems to be heavily cheating, even though I believe I read it did not.

What I see:
- AI air strikes are (too often) on weak targets (HQ for example), which the AI should not that often be aware of (i.e. CV attack deep in my territory).
- They are incredibly powerful compared to the kind of damage I do on my side ; as a matter of fact, even with fully upgraded aircraft (ground attack 2 or 3, fighters 3 and research going on), I find that except in special situations (i.e. overpowering a critical hex), air strikes are a sure way to defeat : I have always observed that they cost more than what they destroy, I would even say by a factor of 2 to 1. It is for exemple not uncommon to see an interceptor that acts twice fall from a full 10 to 6 or even 5. It doesn't look like the AI suffers from so bad odds.
- I have launched a "'perfect" Barbarossa in april 1941, with the full German army, barely scratched by the campaign of France (and supplemented by mostly land builds). I of course destroyed a sizeable part of the Russian army. Having played the allied side, I have a good idea of the Russian production, and I know that in front of this attack, I would be struggling to keep even a thin front line. As the German, I have been consistently destroying at least two units per turn in 42 (much more in 41), plus additional damage on non destroyed ones. I know this to be at least half (if not more considering the reduced amount of resources) of the Russian income ; even more since Russia did do occasional air strikes or land attacks, reducing its available income after reinforcing weak units. Yet, I now see lots of units, including expensive ones such as tanks and aircrafts (and not a few of them), and I know I would not be able to build all of these were I playing the Russian side ; indeed, it looks like the Russian is producing at least twice as I do (from what I see on the map).

All of this lets me believe that there are cheats of sorts (either increased production, or events that pop up lots of units or whatever) on the Russian front.
I also tend to believe the the dice are loaded on the AI side on air combat.

What do you believe ?
Is there any information I should be aware of but failed to see ?

Thanks,
Yves



BiteNibbleChomp -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/10/2019 12:57:06 AM)

The AI does get given extra units, if you look through the game scripts you can find exactly what units it gets and when (some are tied to difficulty level). I would expect all those extra tanks and planes you are seeing are spawned in by event.
If it didn't, people would be complaining that the AI is too easy to beat (the AI isn't able to think as far ahead as a human, particularly with regards to unit production, and so needs to be compensated - I've tested mods where the AI doesn't get free units and it always results in their quick defeat).

AFAIK it doesn't get any specific combat bonuses, however I have observed that the AI tends to be very careful about letting its units out of high-supply. If you are used to having units fight at 60-70% morale/readiness due to always having 6 supply, but the AI always has its units at 9 or 10 then a difference will likely be observed. Of course, if you play as cautiously as the AI does you may not be able to make such quick advances into Russia in the first place.

You can check the graphs section to see how much MPP the AI gets a turn. I would expect it to be very similar to what you get as a human controlling that side with the same amount of territory under control.

- BNC



yvesp -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/10/2019 5:41:09 AM)

Thanks.

This makes sense for extra units. But I don't like it, because it just means that now I cannot even guess what kind of army I need to beat the AI.

For air units, I'm still pretty sure that the combat results are disymetric and that the AI gets a (strong) advantage.



BillRunacre -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/10/2019 1:32:27 PM)

Hi

The only combat bonuses the AI will get is if their units have been given any spotting or experience bonuses.

These can be set when starting a game (in the Choose Side screen) or changed later during play via Options screen which can be accessed from the top right of the screen.

These can be set as you desire, e.g. to make the game harder or easier for you. Other than those, it faces the same challenges and opportunities as everyone else.

In terms of the units, they are tied in to the difficulty level and this can also be adjusted in the same way. Some will be scripted to arrive at the lowest levels and this ensures that the AI has the confidence to behave in the correct manner, whereas those that are triggered at higher levels are there to provide more of a challenge, so you can choose the level and settings that suit you best. [:)]

Bill



Hubert Cater -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/10/2019 1:41:25 PM)

Hi Yvesp,

For AI combat and combat results the AI does not receive any bonuses or favourable formulas etc. that would give it an advantage. However, depending upon difficulty level selected, if it does receive extra experience bonuses via a difficulty setting in the OPTIONS screen, this will reflect in combat results to a degree.

For air combat, the AI would only see the same things under FoW as a human player would, unless of course it has been given increased spotting range in the OPTIONS screen as well. Initial air attacks can reveal hidden enemies as air attack paths provide some spotting along its path, and if an enemy is revealed then you could get subsequent attacks against previously unknown units. Not sure if this applies in your case, but thought I would mention it in case it too is a possible factor.

For Carriers, one potential issue here is that not all players are aware of the different Carrier modes and if you have not tried using the Naval Tactical mode against other ships and land targets, your attack results will definitely not be as optimal as they should be. The AI doesn't make this mistake and could very well explain some of the better results you've seen the AI achieve.

For bonus AI units, these are generally very piecemeal throughout the game to ensure an optimal game play experience. Many of them are only triggered under specific game play situations and are not automatic for the AI throughout the game. For example, most of the Soviet reinforcements that the AI receives as bonus units depend upon on how far the Axis side has advanced. As mentioned above many of them are also tied to difficulty levels as well.

But that being said, these are known and selected advantages given to the AI that can easily be turned off at any time if desired. Simply go go the OPTIONS->ADVANCED->SCRIPTS screen, select the UNIT item in the list and then scroll through the events until you get to the end where the specific AI UNIT bonus events are listed and check them off to disable them.

For MPPs, if you have selected a higher difficulty level or given the AI bonus MPPs to collect each turn via the OPTIONS screen, this too will allow them to make more purchases in game than they otherwise would be able to.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

EDIT: I see Bill has responded as well!



Xsillione -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/10/2019 2:21:04 PM)

The AI has three cheats:

Difficulty: What you setup before the game, the economy boost not that large, but the extra XP and even more the spotting is insane, lategame carriers with the extra spotting has practically satellite support level information.

Event based units: mostly for simply extra defenders and such, but some, esp in higher difficulties they just get a few extra to make it even harder. (also, whole not cheating, as a successful Allied player, you probably did not get any defender unit events, while a semi-successful axis player, you trigger those for the AI, this would be given you too as a player, just never seen it, chine has "survivor" unit reformed events for almost every major city, those are quite annoying as a victor, but part of the chine experience.)

Free Operation: AI does not pay for Operation, so they can relocate their airforce quickly and for free, as well as do fast relocation with the land units to and from France and such, while you either walk slowly all the way, or pay and pay a lot for it.

And while not a true cheat, but it will be true: always rains whenever you need your airforce, and the other side (even human palyer) will always get perfect weather, oh, and the other human player will say the same in reverse.



Hubert Cater -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/10/2019 6:29:18 PM)

Thanks Xsillione, and I would just like to add a few clarifications.

1) AI UNIT bonus events have often come up and the explanation is always the same, they are there to help the AI and as we've always mentioned, they are accessible and can be turned off at any time by players. I think in the future it would probably help if we were to mention this or at least outline this fact in the User Manual going forward. Other in game events can be of similar nature to the AI bonus events, i.e. triggered by location or game play actions, but of course as you've mentioned not AI specific but similar in effect.

2) Operational AI Movement is 100% not free for the AI. It pays for this just the same as a human player does.

3) This is true, weather always seems to favour your opponent, AI or Human, or so we've been told [;)]





yvesp -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/11/2019 10:03:59 PM)

Thanks for the answers.

Still, I really don't understand why I don't feel at all on an equal footing with the IA on the air level. While ground/naval looks fairly equal, I have the annoying feeling that the IA always does more damage than I do and suffers less losses than I do under similar conditions in air combat.

Oh well...



Mercutio -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/11/2019 11:56:27 PM)

As which side? Early on the Axis have a large advantage in experience, morale and levels.



Markiss -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/12/2019 5:09:23 AM)

However much the AI cheats, it's not enough..



Hubert Cater -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/12/2019 8:10:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercutio

As which side? Early on the Axis have a large advantage in experience, morale and levels.


Correct and these are all factors that will play a significant role in combat results. Having a better idea of some specific examples can help us to understand and possibly explain what you are seeing here yvesp.

I just suggest this as I can guarantee you the AI does not receive any combat bonuses/advantages.





Hubert Cater -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/12/2019 8:16:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Markiss

However much the AI cheats, it's not enough..


Fair enough, and especially so once you get the hang of the AI.

Like all AIs, and no matter how good we feel it is, eventually it can be beat and playing against a human player is where this game and most games tend to really shine.

That being said, I do really dislike the word cheat and especially when it comes to our game. The implication of dishonesty or unfairness I do feel is unfair, especially when we've made every effort to have a solid AI versus having a cheating AI to make the game play better for the end user.

I argue this as the difficulty options players have available to provide advantages to the AI are selectable, and we've always been upfront about any other advantages that are provided to the AI such as the UNIT bonuses which can also be turned off (in game at any time) as desired as well.



yvesp -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/12/2019 9:00:22 AM)

quote:


Correct and these are all factors that will play a significant role in combat results. Ha


Let me first say that I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. This was not intended.
It's simple frustration that I am not able to have similar results as tha IA.

Now, the most obvious I had was land strikes by aircraft carriers.
The AI (either UK in 1941 or Japan in 1940) has been able to destroy some of my land units, whereas (of course after setting the CV units on tactical attack mode) I most often don't do any damage or the occasional 1. These AI unit don't look like they are taking much damage (hence they can rince and repeat on the next turn), whereas I would often take 1 or 2 pips, making strikes expensive for such a pale result.



Xsillione -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/12/2019 11:14:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater
That being said, I do really dislike the word cheat and especially when it comes to our game.


Don't , just accept the fact that most humans will accuse AI for cheating, when every human player cheat all the time against the AI, and don't even consider it cheating. We have insane foresight about the events, if played enough, down to the type, place and strength of the units. Can reload, and or if needed, replay entire games, and say, "Ha, that AI cheated on my fifth game against me, bad AI", and forgeting the fact, that the previous games are experience for the humans, while the AI has no such option (currently), and will always play mostly the same.



Mercutio -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/12/2019 8:06:18 PM)

The AI is solid and doesn't cheat. It is a good trainer IMO. The main thing I would change is when it is on the defensive to NOT attack unless it has really good odds. Otherwise that just weakens it for me. It needs to boost its entrenchment and morale.

As Axis, the AI is pretty solid for the first 2-3 years.



yvesp -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/12/2019 8:34:06 PM)

OK

Playing new game.

December 40.
Germany does two strikes against french units with AA 1.
No escort! but interceptor rank 2, strength 10 british against first strike, interceptor rank 0 and strength 8 french against second strike.
Both strike on winter hexes (I guess it should be less effective, but not sure) do 2 pips damage each, and the German plane is unscathed on one strike and looks like 1 pip on the second strike.

That's the kind of thing I observe on the AI but that I am never ever able to replicate on my own side. Not saying that there is a cheat, but what the heck improvements or whatever trick does the AI draws out of its sleeve to get such results ?



Mercutio -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/12/2019 9:40:20 PM)

What I would suggest is you play a hot seat game. Then you can get your answers.
Are the planes attached to an HQ?
What are the supply levels in relation to each other?
What is the experience, readiness and morale of each?

Wait until Germany invades Russia. Even against a human with equal strength and tech levels, Russia has poor odds early because of these extra things. Until they wear down the Germans and bring numbers. Then it all reverses.




ThunderLizard11 -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/15/2019 2:09:09 PM)

My issue with the AI is not cheating but behaviors like leaving HQ units exposed to attack, not escorting AVL/T's, and poor handling of naval units. I haven't played SP in 1.05 and I know devs are working on some of these things. As devs said, you can control AI bonuses and turn off scripts that spawn extra units at the start of the game if it's too difficult.



Hubert Cater -> RE: How much does AI cheats ? (10/15/2019 5:55:09 PM)

quote:

That's the kind of thing I observe on the AI but that I am never ever able to replicate on my own side. Not saying that there is a cheat, but what the heck improvements or whatever trick does the AI draws out of its sleeve to get such results ?


As Mercutio has mentioned, strength, experience, supply, morale, readiness, research levels, are all factors and the AI is very efficient in determining the best units to attack for the most optimal results.

I think Mercutio's other suggestion of trying a Hotseat game where you play both sides would likely answer most if not all of your concerns as you'll see the early edge that the Axis has in some of these all important combat attributes with its units.



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