Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (Full Version)

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BeirutDude -> Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (10/11/2019 11:51:54 PM)

Anyone like to playtest? Just make sure you set any ASW missions to Weapons tight prior to the outbreak of hostilities. I've been having fun with it for about two weeks.



erwinuri -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (10/12/2019 8:42:57 AM)

I will!



Gunner98 -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (10/12/2019 1:27:50 PM)

Had a quick go this morning. Nice tight little scenario. The Jack managed to get a TSAM into the Kashin and the SSGN was detected by a sonobouy dropped by the P-3 so I had a Seahawk sitting on its head when hostilities started. It had a very short war.

The Slava is a real game changer - once it is awake it's hard to get anything past it. Once all my TSAMs and S-harpoons were shot down except the lucky one that got the Kashin, I decided that discretion was the better part of valor and kept the TG well away while I worked the USS Jack in for the kill. When she ate a torpedo with 8 hrs left I called it quits. Very steep point loss for the SSN, probably not a bad thing.

Some points:
-QTR should probably be enabled
-Formation, it is worth setting this up properly for a) the AI side as it does not do well on its own and b) the player side for a better look & feel. Having the TGs on a heading at a speed in a reasonable formation at start. I often do this by importing the formation into a blank scenario, set it up and run it so it looks good then re-import it back into the base scenario so your timings etc don't get messed up.
-The lead MPA might be closer to the patrol area, these guys would operate on station for days and weeks, so wouldn't leave the area uncovered.
-There are probably some land based radars, both air & surface search on Crete that would be useful and realistic for the NATO player to have. Most of the info these would provide would be about the civilian shipping
-The P-3 from Sigonella get fixated on all the commercial traffic in the western half of their patrol zone. Perhaps base the P-3s out of Souda Bay Crete and they may make a more random patrol with a better chance to find the Sovs. The SH-60B is the real player for finding the Soviets though.
-Composition or probable composition of the Soviet TG should be known in a little more detail. There are a lot of intelligence sources in the Med and they would have all come through either the Bosporus, the Suez or the Straits of Gibraltar and been tracked constantly since that point. Maybe a ship name or two.

Nitpicky bits:
-Description: So if that isn’t your thing, that’s OK but is you really want
-NATO side brief: CENTERED ON USS SARATOGA, WILL TRANSMIT THE CRETE OPAREA WITHIN (Transit)
Para 4.b. second sentence is a bit awkward

CLASSIFICATION TOP SECRET NO FOREIGN EXCEPT NATO
Should probably be:
CLASSIFICATION TOP SECRET REL NATO (REL = releasable)

Nice scenario, quick and tricky.

B



erwinuri -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (10/12/2019 1:28:32 PM)

Okay, done.

The scenario works really fine and it sets the mood for more missions following in this AU.

Some comments:
- Attached you will find my "loses and exp." file of the mission. I killed everything WP-related sans the Mays, but only got a "Major Victory". Are the Mays required for a "Triumph"?
- There may be too much neutrals in the AO, it only made me crash once but it's a bit tiresome to find contacts every 2 sec.
- Both sides are very well balanced, althoug WP submarines don't take part in the major fight cause they are really far away from everything.
- Brief. says SSGN but only managed to find an SSB. Intentional?

Thks and keep'em coming!



erwinuri -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (10/12/2019 1:31:10 PM)

SSG mind you! Sorry



HalfLifeExpert -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (10/12/2019 9:38:49 PM)

I've just completed my playthrough. A pretty good scenario overall, I really liked the aspect of trying to maneuver and search for maximum advantage prior to the outbreak of hostilities.

Once I got word of the Pact attack into West Germany, I immediately fired all of my ship based Harpoons at the Soviet SAG, had to wait on the TASMs as I was within minimum range. Some got through and caused damage, but didn't outright sink any ships. The Soviets counterattacked with their own ships as well as with the Julliett SSG. I thwarted all those missiles and never received any damage to my ships. I also used my helicopters to sink the Kilo and the Tango.

I ultimately had to expend all non-nuclear ordinance on the Jack. Sank the Slava and Smetlivy with torpedoes. The Krivak ultimately sank from unrecoverable missile damage. I then had to finish off the two remaining Soviet ship with 5 inch guns in a surface engagement, but they were both already heavily damaged.

Here's the issues I encountered:

1) Scoring: I destroyed every Soviet unit except for the Il-38 base and the scenario never ended until I ran out the clock, and I only got a 'Major Victory' with a score of 2750. Is a Triumph not possible? I only suffered one loss (a Seasprite helicopter to a SAM)

2)P-3 Orion Support: I was most happy to have the AI support for Sub hunting, but I was very frustrated that once hostilities started, the P-3s did not ever engage the Soviet ships with their onboard Harpoons. Those would have been a great help and would have negated needing to engage in a gun fight at the end. I don't know what the solution to this should be, but there should be some way of having those Orions attack the SAG.




Primarchx -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (10/12/2019 10:29:13 PM)

Just starting it now. Why are all the commercial ships going 5 kts? Seems low for transit speeds of merchant vessels.



BeirutDude -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (10/14/2019 11:54:39 PM)

Thanks for the help!

Sorry drawing a blank "QTR?" (Edit: Quick Turn Around, see comment below)

quote:

Formation, it is worth setting this up properly for a) the AI side as it does not do well on its own and b) the player side for a better look & feel. Having the TGs on a heading at a speed in a reasonable formation at start. I often do this by importing the formation into a blank scenario, set it up and run it so it looks good then re-import it back into the base scenario so your timings etc don't get messed up.


I usually do myself but don't when units teleport. Originally I had the TF teleporting, so will fix that. Actually the Soviet SAG is positioned.

quote:

-The lead MPA might be closer to the patrol area, these guys would operate on station for days and weeks, so wouldn't leave the area uncovered.


Originally had the USN MPA out of Souda Bay but under human control. That was a real game changer with the Harpoons, so moved them to Sig at first. Then later put them under computer control. Will move back to Souda under computer control. I was actually thinking along the same lines.

quote:

-There are probably some land based radars, both air & surface search on Crete that would be useful and realistic for the NATO player to have. Most of the info these would provide would be about the civilian shipping


Agree but the entire reason for the merchant shipping, other than their actually being there, is to make it a little harder to pick out the SAGs.

quote:

The P-3 from Sigonella get fixated on all the commercial traffic in the western half of their patrol zone. Perhaps base the P-3s out of Souda Bay Crete and they may make a more random patrol with a better chance to find the Sovs. The SH-60B is the real player for finding the Soviets though.


See above on P-3Cs and totally agree on Sh-60s.

quote:

Composition or probable composition of the Soviet TG should be known in a little more detail. There are a lot of intelligence sources in the Med and they would have all come through either the Bosporus, the Suez or the Straits of Gibraltar and been tracked constantly since that point. Maybe a ship name or two.


In the real world I agree totally, in the scenario world looking for a bit more surprise/mystery. I mention Slava as being brand new and with 16 Sunburn canisters she drew a lot of attention in my day.

quote:

Nitpicky bits:
-Description: So if that isn’t your thing, that’s OK but is you really want
-NATO side brief: CENTERED ON USS SARATOGA, WILL TRANSMIT THE CRETE OPAREA WITHIN (Transit)
Para 4.b. second sentence is a bit awkward


Picking nits is good. Thanks.

quote:

CLASSIFICATION TOP SECRET NO FOREIGN EXCEPT NATO
Should probably be:
CLASSIFICATION TOP SECRET REL NATO (REL = releasable)


Been about 35 years! I seem to remember typing the verbage my way for the USN message traffic, but then again these days I'm lucky I remember my name if I don't check my licence! I'll change it as you likely remember better than I!

quote:

Nice scenario, quick and tricky.


Thank You, I'm going for smaller scenarios these days, people seem to like them more.




BeirutDude -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (10/14/2019 11:56:12 PM)

quote:

Why are all the commercial ships going 5 kts? Seems low for transit speeds of merchant vessels.


Actually just set them up in a Sea Control Mission and will adjust their speeds. Good Catch.



BeirutDude -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (10/14/2019 11:59:21 PM)

quote:

1) Scoring: I destroyed every Soviet unit except for the Il-38 base and the scenario never ended until I ran out the clock, and I only got a 'Major Victory' with a score of 2750. Is a Triumph not possible? I only suffered one loss (a Seasprite helicopter to a SAM)


I'll look at that. I had some units I dropped so the numbers might not add up!

quote:

2)P-3 Orion Support: I was most happy to have the AI support for Sub hunting, but I was very frustrated that once hostilities started, the P-3s did not ever engage the Soviet ships with their onboard Harpoons. Those would have been a great help and would have negated needing to engage in a gun fight at the end. I don't know what the solution to this should be, but there should be some way of having those Orions attack the SAG.


As "Friendly's" you can fire them using the SHift+F1 hot key.



BeirutDude -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (10/15/2019 12:11:26 AM)

quote:

Attached you will find my "loses and exp." file of the mission. I killed everything WP-related sans the Mays, but only got a "Major Victory". Are the Mays required for a "Triumph"?


No bad math! Had more units earlier and deleted some but didn't adjust the points right!

quote:

There may be too much neutrals in the AO, it only made me crash once but it's a bit tiresome to find contacts every 2 sec.


Sorry you crashed! The reason there are so many is to make it a bit harder to pick out the TFs.

quote:

Both sides are very well balanced, althoug WP submarines don't take part in the major fight cause they are really far away from everything.


Luck of the teleport! I had one playtest where all three hit the TF within minutes of the outbreak of hostilities.

quote:

Brief. says SSGN but only managed to find an SSB. Intentional?


No good catch. My bad!



BeirutDude -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (10/15/2019 12:53:19 AM)

While I'm at these changes think I'll add a penalty for sinking a merchant. Makes the lot of them a bit more useful!



BeirutDude -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (10/15/2019 1:07:23 AM)

quote:

-QTR should probably be enabled


Duh! Quick Turn Around! God I'm getting old!

So yes and no, The P-3Cs are a game changer with their four Harpoons, especially after the Soviets deplete a lot of their SAMs. I did move the P-3s to Souda and enabled QTR on Tiger #1 the first P-3C but the rest have no reloads in the magazines. So if they expend all their ordnance (on what I do not know, bad day for he fish?) they are SOL! [:D]

Otherwise I think I have hut everything everyone mentioned above. Both sides now have 3,000 potential VPs to be gained.

Not sure if I can make Neutrals a VP loss for any one side. No way to tell is a Sunburn or Harpoon did the deed!



BeirutDude -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (10/15/2019 1:24:31 AM)

Just added an event to end the scenario when either side's score exceeds 2999. That would be a clean sweep with no losses to the player's side. Short of a LUA script not sure how to end it early if the player has any losses.



BeirutDude -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (10/16/2019 10:40:49 PM)

Thanks for the help guys! incorporated about 90% and good catches!



AlexGGGG -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (11/17/2019 8:46:26 PM)

In briefing, USSR side, STRAVKA should be STAVKA

Also, Nuclear Weapons doctrine seems to be user-editable, is that intended? I could probably use some nuclear depth charges. Well, actually I just did, just dropped nuclear SUBROC onto a Tango-class. What's not to like, hehe.



BeirutDude -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (11/18/2019 12:35:09 AM)

quote:

In briefing, USSR side, STRAVKA should be STAVKA


Oops, I knew that, will correct if I update it, but hardly a show stopper! [:D] [8D] [:)]

quote:

Also, Nuclear Weapons doctrine seems to be user-editable, is that intended? I could probably use some nuclear depth charges. Well, actually I just did, just dropped nuclear SUBROC onto a Tango-class. What's not to like, hehe.


Yes, I figured is someone found it and wanted to use nukes, well that was Soviet doctrine and of course NATO was (is) vague about nuclear first use. I didn't encourage it but yes it was intentional. Only time I ever had nukes used in a scenario I designed and played was "Halloween Horror, 1991" when I didn't find the Delta and watched the eastern CONUS go up with nuclear bursts! Otherwise I tend to stay away from them, but fun is fun [8|] [X(] [:-] [:D] [;)]



AlexGGGG -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (11/18/2019 9:52:19 AM)

So I played through NATO side. I figured I have no chance of successfully attacking Slava with ship-to-ship missiles, and neither has he. So I closed in to gun range (I outrange him by a very thin margin), and damaged two of the smaller escorts by gunfire. Then I fired half my supply of ASROC in general direction of Slava, followed by all of the Harpoons, and then only minor clean up was required.

Two things:

1. I did that with only 1 hour 45 minutes remaining. Maybe you can extend the length (or then again maybe that's OK, as I hesitated at the start, while I was trying to figure out who is where).

2. I got a clean victory as I understand it, but I only got 2250 Major Victory. I expected to get a Triumph grading on that. Maybe I missed some of the enemy, or some additional objective, but I don't really think I did. I sunk all the surface ships, two subs, and also probably a couple of MPAs, while losing none of mine.

Final death toll was as follows
-------------------------------
1x PL-641B Tango [Som]
1x PLRK-651 Juliett
2x Ka-25BSh Hormone A
1x RKR Slava [Pr.1164 Atlant]
1x SKR Kotlin [Pr.56 Spokoinyy]
1x SKR Krivak II [Pr.1135M Burevestnik-M]
1x BPK Kashin [Pr.61]
1x BPK Kresta II [Pr.1134A Berkut A]

+3x Il-38 from the side IL-38 MAY.

I'm still to play through Soviet side.


-------------------------------------------------------------------

While playing Soviet, I found that Il-38s have a partrol area for ASW enabled north of Crete island. So they start dropping buoys there, where no submarines can possibly be, and arrive on station with less buoys than possible. I think operationally, I would have been assigned a dedicated set of Il-38s, like, having two separate ASW patrol areas one south, one north of Crete, even if for response time reasons. So I would humbly suggest adjusting the area.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

So I played through Soviet game and found nothing amiss.

All in all, quite an enjoyable experience playing both sides. Thanks for the great work!



BeirutDude -> RE: Scenario "South of Crete 1985" (11/23/2019 11:36:34 PM)

quote:

All in all, quite an enjoyable experience playing both sides. Thanks for the great work!


Thank you, at some point I'll make the corrections you suggested. Thanks!



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