Impressions thus far (Full Version)

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ComradeP -> Impressions thus far (10/12/2019 1:13:31 PM)

Aside from a demo or two from early CC games, the only CC game I've played is Cross of Iron. That is my point of reference for the series.

The Bloody First is thus far, regrettably, mostly a frustrating experience compared to the 2D CC game I've played.

Battles feel sterile, with units banging away at each-other and what feels like randomly scoring a few hits every few minutes.

Although I appreciate the more realistic approach to firefights compared to most wargames, with troops reluctantly exposing themselves, the behaviour of weapons like machineguns and mortars doesn't feel "right".

MG's fire in short bursts with a delay in between bursts, regardless of the range to the targets, and are often unable to hit a man-sized target at 100 meters. That just doesn't make much sense. I see the Germans moving closer with the peculiar slow-motion running animation the game uses, and nobody gets hit when fired at by 2 MG's and a BAR team.

I see the game's strangely distorted in size mortar shells land right on top of enemy infantry (literally on top of the soldier model) but the Germans suffer no casualties at all.

You would expect an MG to suppress enemy units in an open space in front of it.

The casualties and the limited effects of rifle fire of the average infantry engagement feel realistic, but the behaviour of support weapons doesn't.

There are a wide variety of technical issues. Models spinning around in circles, a poorly coded collision model allowing vehicles to move into buildings and units somehow taking casualties from rifle fire on the other side of a hill, units popping in and out of the terrain whilst moving around and more.

Whoever was in charge of quality control of the title really dropped the ball. 2 patches in the first week after release isn't a good sign. There are times when it feels like a tech demo that was prematurely pushed out the door to be in time for Thanksgiving and Christmas. I find it very difficult to believe that the developers felt the game is ready for release in its current technical state.

I wouldn't recommend purchasing the game unless you know what you're buying. Non-series fans could wait a year whilst the technical issues are resolved and probably get a good deal, but currently I don't think they'd appreciate it.

If you expect the game to be a competitor to Graviteam Tactics or Combat Mission: it isn't, but I don't think it wants to be.

Though reviews from websites like RPS highlighted the flaws of the game well, I bought it because I wanted to support CC's move to 3D.

To me, it's a first crude step into the world of 3D for CC. The first steps are not pretty, but the developers deserve the benefit of the doubt in my opinion.

If the second 3D title has the same technical issues, it would be a different story, but for now the game is good enough for me. It's immensely frustrating at times, but it's growing on me.



justflank -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/12/2019 3:42:19 PM)

MG weapons have always been an area weapon and have never been known for great accuracy and for that reason have always been great for supporting infantry troops flanking/assaulting enemy positions. You can’t just hold down the trigger when firing these weapons due to overheating so firing in bursts is very realistic.

Mortars again are area weapons and when they land In and around troops they explode in an upwards cone so any troops laying down or dug in probably wouldn’t really sustain many injury, few death ears and some unlucky shrapnel.

I’ve been in conflicts for real and you can be exchanging fire with the enemy for a very long time before the situation has been assessed and a plan has been made, real battles are boring and most of the time you are sat around doing nothing. War is alot of waiting not very much assaulting.

A few tips:

Always try win fire supremacy over your enemy make sure you are not suppressed and once you have dominance and during that time you should be thinking about the best approach for your assaulting teams to flank and over run. Remember the enemy will have depth and most likely engage the assaulting squad soon after so using the same safe rout your mg section should be following up to lay down more hell

And finally no plan survives first contact and no assault on an enemy position will ever be text book, improvise, adapt and overcome!



zakblood -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/12/2019 3:48:22 PM)

welcome to the forum justflank



justflank -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/12/2019 3:50:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

welcome to the forum justflank


I have been lurking for many years [;)]



zakblood -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/12/2019 3:52:06 PM)

lurkings fine, postings better[:D]



justflank -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/12/2019 3:57:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

lurkings fine, postings better[:D]



I think I’m the only one enjoying the game from some of these posts, granted it has bugs for sure not game breaking.
Maybe I just encounter a bug and just flank it[8|][8|]



zakblood -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/12/2019 4:14:40 PM)

must admit i had some small issues, but nothing on the scale of others here on day one, either some are just wishing everything to be perfect off the bat, or hoping for more than the sum of the parts, one thing with either Matrix or Slitherine for that matter, or Ageod, patches always come, thick and fast and the games never what it was after a few of them, with some games needed more than others, which isn't a bad thing, as not only fixes get added, but something which others wish for, so in the end, it's gets better like wine with age, so glad your enjoying it, i am and i was one of those on the beta and wished more would join and then see how much it has already progressed, but yes still some ways to go for some and others, well nothing ever perfect, but with time and the developers this has got, it's always going to be a longer task, as they keep adding and altering stuff as they also wish and want more lol



zakblood -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/12/2019 4:19:50 PM)

my last beta for the series was Close Combat Gateway to Caen, and imo it's leaps and bound looking better than that, gameplay wise there's not much in it, as it's a series with a newer engine, so nothing really altered much other than some better looks, which i'd also guess now moddable will also change over the coming months, but as the game engine is more stable and imo much better, things in the series will now progress hopefully much better, i for one look forward to it, as progress is coming along, maybe not quick enough for some, but as Rome wasn't built in a day, i'm wanting the others now re done, or added so are playable in the newer engine, with time, anything maybe possible, who knows, i don't that's for sure so live in hope[;)]



ComradeP -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/12/2019 4:43:38 PM)

Welcome to the forums justflank.

quote:

MG weapons have always been an area weapon and have never been known for great accuracy and for that reason have always been great for supporting infantry troops flanking/assaulting enemy positions. You can’t just hold down the trigger when firing these weapons due to overheating so firing in bursts is very realistic.


What I meant was that the bursts are not intensified as the distance decreases, or at least: that's what it feels like. Engagement ranges can be quite short in this game, and I would expect MG's to be more effective at ranges at around 100 meters.

I feel the suppressive effect is too limited at the moment, particularly for MMG's which offer a more stable firing position than squad automatic weapons/MG's.

I like the (significantly) lower casualty count due to rifle/MG fire being more realistic, the MG's just don't feel "right" to me at the moment.

quote:

Mortars again are area weapons and when they land In and around troops they explode in an upwards cone so any troops laying down or dug in probably wouldn’t really sustain many injury, few death ears and some unlucky shrapnel.


As long as they're prone, that's true. I've been firing at the same enemy unit with 3 mortar teams, with shells landing on top of soldier models, and the enemy not sustaining a casualty. That feels wrong. I don't expect 60mm mortar fire to be highly lethal to non-standing troops, but both the casualty rate and the suppressive effect feel too limit at the moment.

On the other hand, the flexibility in terms of targeting is a bit too much I'd argue. Units without the means to communicate with the mortar platoon shouldn't be able to act as spotters.

quote:

one thing with either Matrix or Slitherine for that matter, or Ageod, patches always come, thick and fast and the games never what it was after a few of them, with some games needed more than others, which isn't a bad thing, as not only fixes get added


Both of the Matrix/Slitherine games that I've bought recently, Fantasy General 2 and CC:TBF were patched soon after release. My issue with that is that these issues could've been fixed in the release candidate.



Tejszd -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/12/2019 5:20:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Whoever was in charge of quality control of the title really dropped the ball. 2 patches in the first week after release isn't a good sign. There are times when it feels like a tech demo that was prematurely pushed out the door to be in time for Thanksgiving and Christmas. I find it very difficult to believe that the developers felt the game is ready for release in its current technical state.



Unfortunately pushing it out the door, even when not ready, seems to be a trend.

Though it is hard to say it was rushed when it was in development for so long so something is isn't working.



Tejszd -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/12/2019 5:31:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

must admit i had some small issues, but nothing on the scale of others here on day one, either some are just wishing everything to be perfect off the bat, or hoping for more than the sum of the parts, one thing with either Matrix or Slitherine for that matter, or Ageod, patches always come, thick and fast and the games never what it was after a few of them, with some games needed more than others, which isn't a bad thing, as not only fixes get added, but something which others wish for, so in the end, it's gets better like wine with age, so glad your enjoying it, i am and i was one of those on the beta and wished more would join and then see how much it has already progressed, but yes still some ways to go for some and others, well nothing ever perfect, but with time and the developers this has got, it's always going to be a longer task, as they keep adding and altering stuff as they also wish and want more lol


You have faith still and hopefully it is well placed.

Past releases did get patches that fixed bugs and added some features, true. But they sometimes introduced new issues and could have gone farther. Leaving bugs unfixed and or wished for changes out.

TLD Outstanding Bugs; https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3387394
LSA Outstanding Bugs; https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3716292
GtC https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4700556



zakblood -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/12/2019 5:37:54 PM)

fair comment and reply tbh, i'm only a tester, so hopefully the developers will comment and add more



budd -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/12/2019 8:33:38 PM)

Got to pretty much agree with ComradeP's sentiments, thing is i'm still having fun with it despite all of the problems. I to purchased on release to support the move of CC to 3d, hope they get things straightened out.



Alan Sharif -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/12/2019 9:27:05 PM)

I too am enjoying the game, following the first patch, and whilst it is not perfect, I do not regret purchasing.



STIENER -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/13/2019 2:10:23 AM)

interesting comments..... waiting for more people to chime in



surfcandy -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/13/2019 2:48:58 AM)

Sorry, to be honest I hesitated and did not buy because of the negative reviews on Steam and gameplay I saw from the Youtube videos I searched. I'll let this one pass.



z1812 -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/13/2019 3:02:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: surfcandy

Sorry, to be honest I hesitated and did not buy because of the negative reviews on Steam and gameplay I saw from the Youtube videos I searched. I'll let this one pass.



Same here.



zakblood -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/13/2019 7:00:19 AM)

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=142&p=809275#p809275

well it seems i'm not alone in liking and enjoying the game with a few comments above stating the same and a link to share, and it's the alterations for me and newer engine which is the point, yes it's not perfect, but hopefully in time like quite a few of the newer engine games, it will be better than the sum of its original parts



ComradeP -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/13/2019 11:41:46 AM)

It seems the Normandy (part of the) campaign is thus far seen as the most enjoyable, as several reviewers and the author of the thread you linked to, zakblood, are enjoying that (part of the) campaign the most.

I'll update this thread with screenshots, which might turn it into an AAR of sorts.



ComradeP -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/13/2019 11:44:48 AM)

The results of First Blood, the first battle.

There was no second round of the battle. I'm not sure why, as the Germans still controlled an objective (2-the bonus objective I captured due to Axis morale collapsing). They were not pushed off the map.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/5t7YImT.jpg[/image]



ComradeP -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/13/2019 11:50:19 AM)

The first round of Sbiba Ridge led to a whole host of graphical glitches and peculiar situations. The game doesn't seem to like loading.

I loaded a bunch of saved games after the 37mm's got "Steep Angle" results, hoping that would solve the issue.

The Warhawk is stuck in the air after its strafing run.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/isOdZhv.jpg[/image]

The Germans in this screenshot are all dead/wounded, but standing upright.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/HJFBklq.jpg[/image]

The two 37mm AT guns and the Panzer IIIL have been staring at each-other for 40 minutes or so as everybody seems to get Steep Angle results. I tried firing at the ground next to the tank, but the gunners became "suppressed" when I did that. The Panzer IIIL then proceeded to fire diagonally at the sky with its bow MG.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/2jRs5zV.jpg[/image]

An overview of the situation for most of the battle. The German assault on Meftah failed, but if I move towards the German deployment zone north of there, my men get fired at by some big AT guns and a Panzer IVF1.

There's a half-track on an overwatch position and a German MG team in the central orchard, preventing movement there. My men holding The Farm are hiding in a fake wall. Some walls are solid, some are not. The collision model is pretty poorly coded, as noted earlier.

The Germans have not moved in a while, but I can't safely move either due to the Germans holding overwatch positions.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/uV6EdIj.jpg[/image]

The result. My two "wounded" men were the squad leader and a rifleman of a BAR team who Routed and fled the map after taking fire from something big. For some reason, the Germans didn't open fire on the routed men.

The Germans seem to have reclaimed their two broken down armoured cars and/or the SdKfz 251 that I knocked out at Meftah as they are "wounded".

My three mortar teams helped a lot at Meftah, otherwise the casualties wouldn't have been this one-sided. On the other hand, the Germans only assaulted it with a Zug Führer unit and a single squad, aside from the 2 armoured cars (one knocked out by mortar fire, the other with grenades by the Rifle team) and half-track.

The German AT gun was knocked out by a 105mm howitzer barrage.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/rVIvksv.jpg[/image]

I'm guessing the battle simply became too glitched at the end for the AI to handle, which led to it staying in position.

As noted in a review of CCTBF, the Panzer IVF1 remained in positions whilst the Panzer IIIL drove straight for the Observation Post objective.



STIENER -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/13/2019 7:10:37 PM)

wow...that sounds a bit pathetic comrade P....I sure hope matrix is reading this too. that's just all around BAD IMO.....and some of the players here think that would be fun? wow....



budd -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/13/2019 8:25:56 PM)

To be fair, it doesn't always turn out like that. When i played that battle it didn't , the Germans assaulted the ridge successfully.




STIENER -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/13/2019 8:37:06 PM)

LOL...ok...but theres some serious issues here...that scenario was un playable...and if doesn't happen all the time...that's even worse IMO. is anyone sending them these game files? god I hope matrix pays attention to this stuff....wow



Ezra -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/14/2019 4:53:52 PM)

I`ve been a long time supporter of this franchise since day one. I have also applied to beta test and never been chosen (I beta tested the original IL2). Why should I pay now to be one? After reading all the issues and comments like, "Patches usually come thick and fast," why release it in such a state then? I would be livid if I purchased blindly. Anyway, I will pass and wait on this one. Been around too long and frankly grown tired of "beta" state release from Matrix.



ComradeP -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/14/2019 5:15:04 PM)

The first round of Sbiba Ridge wasn't unplayable, but it highlighted the numerous technical issues that plague the current version of the game.

The assault on Meftah proceeded normally. Had the AI kept its armoured cars and half-track back a bit, those could have easily annihilated my forces there. It was mostly chance that I didn't lose any men.

The crews of the armoured cars seem to have bailed after a morale failure or the like, as my Rifle team had no means to punch through armour.

The AI suffered from an unbalanced force composition, with AT guns that stood in the deployment zone for the entire battle. Multiplayer, winning this scenario should be a piece of cake for the German side.

The scenario became rather glitchy after I loaded a bunch of times, and the Mexican stand-off with the AT guns is silly, but it wasn't all bad.

I do get the impression that CC:TBF works best as an infantry-focussed game.



STIENER -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/14/2019 7:09:50 PM)

comrade.....it may be not all bad but theres some serious issues here. Morale for one...why does everyone break so easy? piss poor unit set up by this great AI...the AI not attacking etc,etc.

PIP? Steve? are we listening?



zakblood -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/14/2019 7:23:09 PM)

it's clear to see your not a fan and also don't own the game, as for one,

quote:

why does everyone break so easy?
they don't,. plain and simple, it's depends on how you setup a given game, i for one as i'm useless make the game so easy that really do my units breaks, and tbh the AI is very good even on the easiest of settings, so it goes on map and placements and how you play, for me, if i do something daft, then yes i'll loose some units, but as the AI doesn't tend to walk into MG fire as often as i did when i first started testing and playing it, and used cover way much better than i ever did, it's all how you setup a game tbh imo

so balanced, eg make your side rock hard and the other idiots, and even then, on most maps it's more than playable and enjoyable even that one sided, some maps are hard, there's some issues, but none as much as you think, and why only a few are being posted about, plain and simple, as for most, make yourself elite and the other side rookies, and you don't see what some are seeing, that's not to say there wrong or not seeing it, just on a given map and using a given setup, some stuff happens and for others on a different setup, it doesn't plain and simple.

then take away all this and use better or worse placements, and the % of things to go wrong or right, is depending on where and what you have placed and your settings etc



zakblood -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/14/2019 7:39:57 PM)

for me i walked through the game as the Germans, then again they are better to start off with, better units, better equipment and overall pound for pound, better trained and better lead etc etc, so played them on elite with the AI on idiots mode and really enjoyed more than a few playthroughs, then as tbh i started off with the the bloody first and died more often than not, so went off default early on and played them on the best settings, so had the best chance of winning and made it easier for myself, and still most of the time settled for a draw but did get the odd wins, the US uses a peashooter as a AT gun so found that part hard, as my placements were always poorer than the Germans, and my equipment and knowledge on how to use them was never as good as the AI, but in the end i got by and learned that it's not easy to play as the US, then again the name somewhat gives that part away, the bloody first doesn't get its name as it went sailing though the war as a picnic does it?



zakblood -> RE: Impressions thus far (10/14/2019 7:50:45 PM)

so playing the 1st Infantry Division (United States) or the "The Big Dead One" and "The Bloody First" is a combined arms division, but as this game and battles shows, what they started off with, wasn't worth the carry and is why it is also nicknamed "The Fighting First".

equipment compared to the Germans, poor,

tanks, well when you get them, there's not enough and tbh there also not used too well either, so trained by Mickey for a guess.

look at the squad firepower of the 2 sides, your always going to come off worse, as that's one sided.

so for me the game portrays a good show of how it was,

put this all aside and yes there is some issues which the developer need to sort out, and they will.

why does some have different play and screen shot to others, that's how games pans out, with different setups, different positions, even on the same level, no one games is going to go the same way as someone else's.

why does some shots miss when almost touching and then hit off the range of the whole map? no idea, either pure luck or bad luck.

i've seen many things here i've struggled to replicate on my own games, so how the developers going to, is anyone guess, as to fix it, they first have to reproduce it,...



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