Next Newbie - new questions about Airwar and Support Units (Full Version)

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baerlyner -> Next Newbie - new questions about Airwar and Support Units (10/16/2019 7:26:25 AM)

Hello folks,

I refound that marvellous strategy gem and started the last days watching tutorials on YT (thanks to marauderPL and XTRG) and read a lot of AARs and Ressources stuff created and collected (thanks to EwaldvonKleist and Telemecus), but a view questions were still in the loop.

1) Airwar
Telemecus wrote a large collection of articles about that topic, but I never saw a hint how to work properly with the Air Doctrine window. At the "Advanced Sequence of play" from EwaldvonKleist and Telemecus it is mentioned several times. An AAR-related exampel or a comment about "at the start of your turn you should...", "At the end of the turn..." would help me a lot.

2) Recovery-cycle of Fighterplanes
Telemecus is writing about a the Fighterplane-cycle that a third should be for recovering in the NR, a third at the Fighter-Forward-Airbases... but where is the last third? At the staging bases ready for escort?
In my understanding a cycle where the parts are divided in three groups, like station 1, 2 and 3, the units are moving around, but I just got two stations. Any help there?

3) Supporting Units
I understand the role of SU's in that way, that they enforce certain Units for specific missions. But I dont understand the way they go when they are not attached at divisional level in the manual mode (automatic supply transfer locked). E.g. how can I move SU from a Corps to an other manually? Or from Army to Army?
And when I attache SU's to a Division, from which pools (whick Corps, Armies, Armygroups) can I grab?
And last but not least, is every SU eligble to be attached to each Division? For me it seems that Howitzer Battatalion, Construction Battalions and some FLAK-units cannot be attached. Is there a list somewhere?

Okay mates, thank you so far for the answers or links, where to find them.

Cheers from Berlin
Baerlyner



vilcum -> RE: Next Newbie - new questions about Airwar and Support Units (10/16/2019 8:58:25 AM)

will try to help you.... BTW - most answer have been aken from a discrod group you can join to share knowledge about this and other strategy games (https://discordapp.com/invite/fatMgwU)


1) Airwar

telemecus explains here Air doctrine
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=23878.0

"In the picture the things boxed in black only matter during your air turn. And if you do all air missions manually (you choose which air groups do which missions) and so long as those numbers are not zero, it will not make any difference to the game what numbers they are. If you let the AI to do them in your turn for you then they will matter, but you can always change them during the turn if you find them to not be useful for you. So you will never create any disasters by what you choose for them.

The ones in red or blue on the other hand are for missions that only the AI can do - so it is quite important to get them right.

The ones in red are only used during your opponents phase - so I only set that at the end of my turn when I have an idea of what I want in my opponents turn. The ones in blue can be used either during your action phase or the other phases.

On percentage required to fly I think 0% is a good safe default to choose - your fighters will never sit on the ground doing nothing while they are bombed with that. Some use it to control fatigue of your fighters from doing interceptions. But I would say you are (usually) better off controlling that by moving them back if they are overused.
On the other doctrines remember HIGHER NUMBERS MEANS LESS OF IT. If you want more make those numbers smaller not larger! If you are happy with the number of missions you get there, increase the number to get more aircraft in each. So rather than giving a set number for these doctrines I would say just change them adaptively - each time decide if you want more or less and change the numbers until you start to get what you want.
Similarly on escort numbers do look at the state of your fighters and other aircraft. If you are losing too many bombers by being shot down by the enemy fighters, then increase escort (which will mean fewer missions performed). If your fighters are exhausted and you are not losing too many bombers, then reduce.

In general Axis should keep recon escort off and Soviets recon escort on."

2) Recovery-cycle of Fighterplanes

Under that doctrine (at least my own application) the last third should stay in rearguard bases far from the front. As you take an air unit from NR it uses 100% air miles, so it is a sitting duck waiting for bombs, in the other hand unts you air transfer from rearguard bases to frintline ones tipicallly only spend 1/2% or their airmiles, being ready to fight in that same turn. ...by the way I do this with all airplane types as russien, not only F and FB.

3) Supporting Units
< I dont understand the way they go when they are not attached at divisional level in the manual mode (automatic supply transfer locked). >

auto transfer locked does not auto means divisional("unit" as soviet combat corps use this same level) level use, only that they will not autotransfer between different HQs.

< E.g. how can I move SU from a Corps to an other manually? Or from Army to Army?

By "corps" I take you refer corps HQ, you have to select the unit and access is detail screen, in the right column the HQ name appears in BLUE (if you have AP left), click on it and a list with legal transfer and its cost should appear.

<And when I attache SU's to a Division, from which pools (whick Corps, Armies, Armygroups) can I grab?

All the command chain for that unit forms its valid pool for attachments (i.e. if german its corps HQ, army HQ, army group HQ anf OKH)

<And last but not least, is every SU eligble to be attached to each Division?

NO. Artillery/rockets can never be attached to combat units, construction units only to forts. Flak units can be (do not know exactly wich ones are excluded).


more info via telemacus again at http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=23871.0








baerlyner -> RE: Next Newbie - new questions about Airwar and Support Units (10/16/2019 9:39:51 AM)

Thanks mate,

that was very helpful! Especially the links!



Telemecus -> RE: Next Newbie - new questions about Airwar and Support Units (10/16/2019 10:18:41 AM)

Excellent answer by vilcum so can only add some details

quote:

ORIGINAL: baerlyner
In my understanding a cycle where the parts are divided in three groups, like station 1, 2 and 3, the units are moving around, but I just got two stations. Any help there?


Originally the three stations would be
i) Sent to National Reserve (best done at start of turn, and usually they go first to transit and only appear in national reserve the next turn)
ii) Those that stay on the map during the turn ( and can be used for air missions during the turn)
iii) Those that get assigned back from National Reserve (best done at the end of the turn)
What this means is you would start your turn with 2/3 of your airforce on the map, play your turn with 1/3 of your airforce on the map, and end your turn with 2/3 of your airforce on the map and 1/3 in transit and entering National reserve next turn.

National Reserve has infinite supply and support so is very good for airgroups with lots of damaged and reserved planes to repair them.
National Reserve gives a boost to morale while there and also a one off boost each time it is moved to reserve so should be good for low morale groups.
National Reserve should reduce fatigue - but there is a bug on v.11.03 meaning it does not. As fatigue is usually the number one problem for German fighters that is why Vilcum's method of using rear bases rather than National Reserve is better if you play in v1.11.03 also

quote:

ORIGINAL: vilcum
As you take an air unit from NR it uses 100% air miles, so it is a sitting duck waiting for bombs, in the other hand unts you air transfer from rearguard bases to frintline ones tipicallly only spend 1/2% or their airmiles, being ready to fight in that same turn. ...by the way I do this with all airplane types as russien, not only F and FB.


Just to add to that having 100% air miles flown means it will not fly during your turn, but it will still fly during your opponents air turn. Some have argued that because air miles are not reset to 0% until your logistics they should not be able to fly. But in repeated testing it has been found that aircraft on 100% air miles flown at the end of your turn will fly during your opponents air turn. Indeed it seems there is no air miles limit at all for your airgroups during your opponents turn, the only limit is what the AI will choose to do with them then.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vilcum
Flak units can be (do not know exactly wich ones are excluded).


In the case of Axis if it is LW (Luftwaffe) it cannot be directly assigned.

It should be added as well as moving support units during your action phase, support units will move between HQs during your logitics phase depending on the locks or support levels you give to each HQ.



baerlyner -> RE: Next Newbie - new questions about Airwar and Support Units (10/16/2019 11:21:15 AM)

Thanks for claryfing, so just a short ongoing question:

When do you start this schedule? Right in the first turn?
My idea is to start in the second, because obviously in the first turn all Airunits are fresh and motivated, and you need all you can get for first punch.

So in the second turn I start sending the first third to NR and then its going on.
Right, or do I missed something?



Telemecus -> RE: Next Newbie - new questions about Airwar and Support Units (10/16/2019 11:57:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: baerlyner
When do you start this schedule? Right in the first turn?
My idea is to start in the second, because obviously in the first turn all Air units are fresh and motivated, and you need all you can get for first punch.


Yes as you say first turn is special and so does need a a different approach.
-The big thing in the first turn are the special rules giving a bonus to bombing enemy airfields. So in this turn you are better off squeezing every drop of use out of even the worst condition bomber group. However I can also show you an AAR where all enemy aircraft were destroyed in stuka range, or in stuka range of where stukas could be transferred to, and in this case it did make sense to send some shorter range bombers to reserve.
-And because your bombers do not need really need escorts for bombing on turn 1, this is a good turn NOT to use fighters. Yes you can use them to add to the kill total. And giving easy kills and wins to your fighters now is a great way of training them up to higher experience and morale. But as you will always be trying to keep your fatigue down, resting them for one turn when you do not really need them is a good thing. This does not necessarily mean move them to a rear airbase or reserve, but just make sure they do not fly in your action phase.
-Recon. The Axis have a lot of recon. Be honest with your self are you really going to a lot of it, or even most of it? If not then why are you leaving them in airbases needing supplies and vehicles to service them. If you send half of your recon or more to reserve I bet you will barely notice it. So here you may be wanting to just keep rotating low morale groups in and out of national reserve and leave recon airgroups on their base morale in the National Reserve simply to avoid the logistics of keeping aircraft in the field you do not use. You will probably use less than 1/3 of your recon all the time as a beginner so no need to keep out more than you need.
-Transports. Your panzers and other units start off with the fuel tanks full for two turns - if you deliver fuel or supplies to them in turn 1 they will just need more fuel to carry the supplies with them on turn 2 as they probably will not use it. There is some use to delivering supplies to your furthest flung panzers at the end of turn 2. But if you are not going to be using a transport group for turn 1 and 2 again ask yourself why you are keeping it there?

Contrary to the intuition that all the airgroups are fresh and motivated on turn 1 there are some pretty beat up airgroups there. Some have barely half of their aircraft ready and some are newly formed and yet to gain morale or experience. Given the bonuses to Axis air on turn 1 you will usually not notice it. But there are airgroups on turn 1 that are candidates for morale and repair recycling through NR or fatigue recovery through a rear airbase. So if you find some airgroups are surplus to requirements on turn 1 you should consider it. I have in the past done that with some stukas and a lot of transports especially. This is only for airgroups that are really surplus to requirements - turn 1 is still a great turn for getting wins and buidling experience and morale for the airgroups that do participate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: baerlyner
So in the second turn I start sending the first third to NR and then its going on.


Well here it depends. Some Soviet players send their entire air force to their National reserve on turn 1. If so I would consider rotating more than 1/3 of fighters then as they will not be needed on turn 2 at all, and in a future turn when they are back I can afford to rotate less than a third. For you bombers you have a decision. You can send more to reserve as the ones that stay will have an easy time of it. Or you can say its party time, there is no Soviet airforce to oppose you so let us do mass unescorted daylight bombing of everything!

Similarly some other judgements to make in future turns. If you foresee in a few turns you will have some critical battles coming up (Leningrad, Moscow) you may want to rotate more than 1/3 off the map now so they come back fresh for those key battles and rotate less then 1/3 off the map then. Similarly if you are very close to the mud or blizzard when planes do not fly very well, then keep more planes on the map for the last hurrah of clear weather but keep more off the map during the bad weather.

I suppose the point is having given the 1/3 rule as an "ideal", take it only as an average over time and be ready to flex it to the operational needs.

On the other hand you should be aware that this rotation means 2/3 of your air will be on airbases during your enemies turn and your logistics, but only 1/3 of your air will be on the map during your turn. The amount of ammo, fuel, supply and support an airbase gets depends on how many aircraft are in it during logistics and is rarely enough for them. This rotation would mean you get twice the amount of supplies you would get for the 1/3 of the air force left to use it. As you go east and get the supply penalties you will see this as a very useful way to keep your airforce with what they need to fly.

Also at some point you may hear of the Kabuki Dance or the logistical cycle of rotating airbases between the front and rear. That is maybe as a more advanced topic. But worth mentioning now that it becomes a lot easier if you are sending airgroups to rear airbases or the NR.



DaubryMeadows -> RE: Next Newbie - new questions about Airwar and Support Units (10/19/2019 10:59:43 PM)

The explanation I have been looking for - many thanks vilcum and Telemecus!



7sisters -> RE: Next Newbie - new questions about Airwar and Support Units (10/24/2019 6:45:19 PM)

Good guide for air doctrine



thedoctorking -> RE: Next Newbie - new questions about Airwar and Support Units (10/24/2019 8:32:10 PM)

The side that is advancing (the Axis early on) have much more problems with their supply than the side that is defending its territory. So in the early going with the Soviets, I keep pretty much everybody on the map who has any conceivable chance of being useful. I send air units with morale < 40 back to NR at the beginning of my turn. You should keep an eye on fatigue, but it is unlikely for Soviet air units to have fatigue problems in the early going because there are just so many of them, and their morale is weak, meaning they will be in NR pretty frequently (where they will lose fatigue as well as gaining morale). Then I move air units if necessary (using the air kabuki method that Telemecus advises, though this is not essential for the USSR). I put all fighter-bombers on bombing missions except for the very highest experience guys, hopefully in modern fighters. Then I bomb every hex on the front except for those that have huge concentrations of flak (you should be able to figure out if the enemy has a big flak concentration with some air recon). I keep an eye on the Axis fighter response. If there are a lot of Axis fighters flying, I pound that area with as many missions as I can. When/if the numbers of fighters intercepting starts to go down, or if they are showing significant reductions in combat efficiency, then I hop on that fighter base with a big fighter sweep (f7 airbase bombing mission in which I deselect all the really good bombers). If fighters suddenly stop flying altogether, it means they have run out of fuel at that base, often a problem in the early going. In this case, send the bombers as you have a good chance to kill a bunch of fighters on the ground. If combat efficiency is declining, this means that they have very high fatigue levels, meaning you do the fighter sweep thing.

The rotation method that Telemecus discusses above is a way to address this latter problem, by ensuring a steady supply of fresh fighter squadrons in those front-line bases. The down side is that you don't have enough fighter numbers to cover the entire front efficiently. As the Soviet player, you should pay attention to what kind of fighters are intercepting you, or if there is a large region of the front where no interceptions are taking place. If all you see is Hungarian or Italian or Romanian fighters, go after them - they have lower experience levels that the German pilots and you should be able to knock them down pretty efficiently. And once they are gone, they aren't coming back nearly as quickly as the German ones. If there are no fighters at all, you can transfer most of your own fighters away, but leave a few because you might have the pleasure of drawing an interception or ground support mission that is unescorted. If you have a good fighter squadron, you can shoot down a dozen German bombers in one raid.

If you are playing v1.11.03, you need rear-area airbases where you can bring planes back from NR that are not yet ready to go to the front - some fatigue left, morale not yet up to scratch, or needing more experience. This is because of a bug in 1.11 where NR acts like an isolated air base and you can only gain one morale a turn after the first boost. In 1.12, this is still a useful move but not so important, since the morale gain bug has been corrected. But it is still useful to have some guys back in the rear with FB's set on fighter, so if the Germans try to rebuild morale and exp for level bomber units by random strategic bombing you can give them a bloody nose.



demyansk -> RE: Next Newbie - new questions about Airwar and Support Units (12/2/2019 1:25:56 AM)

I read these posts and I never understood all the ways this game is played. I just liked moving the units and attacking/defending. I never got into the attachments of units and all that stuff. I thought the computer did most of it. I played a lot of war in Russia on the pc in dos. No problems there, but this game always gave me a hard time. I wish I could get the hang of itm



king171717 -> RE: Next Newbie - new questions about Airwar and Support Units (12/2/2019 8:14:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: demyansk

I read these posts and I never understood all the ways this game is played. I just liked moving the units and attacking/defending. I never got into the attachments of units and all that stuff. I thought the computer did most of it. I played a lot of war in Russia on the pc in dos. No problems there, but this game always gave me a hard time. I wish I could get the hang of itm


Just keep playing it. i felt the game to be super overwhelming at first. But as u learn more and understand stuff u began to learn more and more. (hope this makes sense) I really really enjoy it now.



Telemecus -> RE: Next Newbie - new questions about Airwar and Support Units (3/30/2020 9:24:48 AM)

Some have commented they have had difficulty accessing the picture in the reference above so here it is.

There is a consolidated air mechanics and tips thread here https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4782755

I would recommend putting further air tips there.

[image]local://upfiles/53894/339935EC01AB4EA7A4623F4174FF5077.jpg[/image]



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