Invasions (Full Version)

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Michael T -> Invasions (10/20/2019 2:18:14 AM)

I don't think I saw in the manual about how invasions work if they land in an enemy occupied hex. It's possible I missed a rule.

I saw what happens versus a vacant hex. But what happens if a unit invades an occupied hex? Is land combat resolved as normal? What happens if the defender is not destroyed or retreated?

Also now that I think of it, paratroops. If they land next to an enemy unit (I see they can't land on a unit) can they attack it in the turn they land?




AlvaroSousa -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 5:06:38 AM)

You can't land on a unit only on an empty coastline or partial land hex.

You can attack after paradropping.



Michael T -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 5:29:54 AM)

Does that mean if the Germans were to have enough ground units to garrison all the coastal hexes in northern France that an invasion would be impossible along that coastline?



ncc1701e -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 9:05:56 AM)

Well, good question (same apply to Malta, Crete and Sicily). It means your paratroopers will need to clean up your coastlines perhaps.



juntoalmar -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 9:46:10 AM)

And Gibraltar. What about combined attacks (land and sea invasion)?

I have to say I'm a bit surprised by this. I guess it's not a technical reason, but a rule design decision. Can you elaborate?

If this game goes Pacific/Global War (as I would love to happen), I think an invasion rule is mandatory.



Michael T -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 10:28:00 AM)

It seems rather odd on the face of it. Maybe there is some valid reason or a misunderstanding, but yeah how do you do a Pacific game without contested invasions.



AlbertN -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 11:01:37 AM)

My take is that the engine is scripted in ways that do not allow 2 opposing nations stacking in the same hex. Which could be a problem.

A potentially 'simple' way to fix it is to have invasion ships able to be placed in all-sex hexes and be converted to a beachead (Some other game uses this method), and a beachead marker / unit is pratically a land hex (In that other game it specifically points to another hex, and it is not all around, and to attack across a beachead hexside has a penalty, ie. 1 or 2 column shifts depending on the beachead type).
That way units can 'walk' in the Beachead and attack the hex it points to (Examples are to walk from UK into a Beachead that leads to France, or from Tunis to Sicily, or from Sicily to Malta, depending on how the map is shaped - that mirrors short distance water bodies to cross), or you have to 'ship' units through strategic movement to the Beachead. (In that game units shipped that way -must- be of the 'small' type, so that ahistorical invasions against well defended spots are rather hard, but the historical D-Day or Husky are well feasible as pratically there is suddenly a 'land bridge' between chunks of land). Then that game has other requirements like air superiority, etc - in order to position a beachead so that early Allied invasions are ... hard to pull out! (Usually you gotta wait for USA to have kicked in and have built up some).



sol_invictus -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 1:52:57 PM)

This does sound very odd. Maybe a beta-tester can chime in on how it works in practice. Maybe an amphibious invasion temporarily allows an enemy unit to occupy an invasion hex until the immediate combat resolution and either the defender is destroyed/retreated or the landing unit is repelled back to the ships with very large losses/destruction.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 1:53:02 PM)

The map has...

All land hex - can't invade
All land hex touching water - can invade
land water hex - can invade
coastal hex - can invade.

I player may garrison all of these. If a coastal hex is garrisoned it requires a player to buy landing craft and dump the unit on the coast. If the unit is on the coastal hex it can be destroyed by air very easily as the suppression rules no longer apply. An enemy air unit does 100% damage.

Considering the total cost of actually doing this one doesn't do it.

A place like Malta has a malta port hex and a coastal hex.

So for example if Englnad decides to dump a unit on the coast of malta also from landing craft it will get constantly destroyed by Axis air. Considering the cost it just isn't worth it. The UK would lose its production each turn trying to do this.

Land units on the coast are like land units on the beach. Very open and vulnerable to attack.

When you land after an invasion you have 50% of your operation points to attack out.
You can stick a fleet in that hex for extra firepower.

I considered all of the above but each had serious loopholes and were difficult to code.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 1:58:16 PM)

FYI if some rule is broken or gamey there should be no issue fixing it with patches.



sol_invictus -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 3:34:16 PM)

Wouldn't These rules make it almost imperative that an amphibious landing advance off the beach/landing hex during the same turn of the invasion? Otherwise wouldn't it be very easy for the defender; during their immediately following turn; to use air on the invasion hex that has no suppression followed up by a ground attack.







AlvaroSousa -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 4:12:53 PM)

Of course. Large invasions need sea control, air control, and coordination.

Even the defenders must plan.

Read up on everything the allies did for day.

Also by 1944 Germany simply can't cover everything



Uxbridge -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 4:37:22 PM)

Regarding dropping paratroopers on occupied hexes, wouldn't it be possible to use the attachement-mechanics already inherent in the game? If an airborne unit, by design or inadvertently, drops on such a hex, it attaches itself to the enemy unit, leaving it (the defending unit) with strong negative combat effects instead of the positive ones alloted to it by a normal attachment. The paratrooper is destroyed (or could be rebuilt at lower cost), but will still produce a confusing effect on the defender.

Sorry for sort of interrupting the ongoing dialogue, but I felt this to be part of the topic.



juntoalmar -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 4:59:27 PM)

So, if I understood correctly it is not possible to make a sea invasion without air units or paradrops. That's still a hard to understand decision for me and reduces the possibilities of the game.








James Taylor -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 5:08:41 PM)

Let's see how the original rules workout first. Keeping the Pacific in mind, I saw in the manual a map shot of an invasion where the hexes has a transparent white shaded area next to the sea. Could this be designated as an invasion/beach eligible hex and if so a simple rule that no disembarked land unit can occupy that hex at the end of its player turn or be shattered, rendering the hex unoccupied for the following turn.

Only allow a "coastal defense" to be built in the hex, which instead of a combat modifier of -20% it simply causes a strength reduction of 1 in addition to the other adjacent enemy units. The invading units suffers the same penalties as usual (excl. Marines) but must attack and move inland by the end of its turn or face being removed from play.




AlvaroSousa -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 5:58:59 PM)

Paradrops - I did think of that but then I make that decision an absolute add on. It would become a mechanic to where if you want to do X you should always have Y as part of it.

Invasions - You can do any invasion you like. To clarify what I meant..... Imagine in 1944 the Allies want to land on D-Day. They build 50 corps (which is unrealistic) and never build an airforce or navy. The Axis have 3,000 air craft on the coast and 60 subs. Is it unreasonable to assume this invasion will get obliterated? This is what I mean by sea control. Not if Malta has one corps and a damaged air counter and the Italians sail in 3 naval groups with a corps to invade. it is not unreasonable to ask that if a player is defending an invasion location with forces that you need greater forces to overcome this.

Rules - Rules can always change. This is how the rule system came to be. Even in beta testing some things didn't pan out and I changed them. Things aren't set in stone. If some rules don't work then they can be changed. The good thing is that if the mechanics of WarPlan work out the next version of the game will be better.



Michael T -> RE: Invasions (10/20/2019 8:20:20 PM)

Sorry but the whole invasion rule is very odd. And unique as far as I know. But I will see how it works in play.

However I think a far more realistic and standard type rule could and should be devised.

As an aside, I read the rule on Naval Shore Support. It seems Naval support can be used beyond the coastal hex to include the next hex inland. Is that right? If so that's going to be abused. Naval units should only support the immediate coastal hexes in a game with 30Km hexes. The ships could not sail up close to the shore due to mines and coastal defenses (emplaced naval guns) or risk getting badly damaged or sunk. The abuse in North Africa and along the French coast will be horrid.



juntoalmar -> RE: Invasions (10/21/2019 7:39:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa
Rules - Rules can always change. This is how the rule system came to be. Even in beta testing some things didn't pan out and I changed them. Things aren't set in stone. If some rules don't work then they can be changed. The good thing is that if the mechanics of WarPlan work out the next version of the game will be better.


And this is the best news ever. I think that some rules will never be perfect on the first iteration, because players will realize of something in the mechanics after hundreds of games have been played. I think the game will start in a very good position, and with the possibility to improve in the future. We may have a classic game here, at the same level of WitE/W, MWiF, TOAW or WiP. [&o]



Michael T -> RE: Invasions (10/21/2019 9:21:08 AM)

Yes lets hope the game can keep being improved.



AlbertN -> RE: Invasions (10/21/2019 6:07:23 PM)

Pratically at the same time, beach defense is impossible because ground units are in 'coastal hexes' and thus can be bombed into oblivion though?
Translating - don't do Atlantic Wall or your troops dies horribly (Exactly as it is in Strategic Command, even if it works differently: anything on the beaches gets screwed over by insane amphibious land units that can attack from the transports without getting fired back...)



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Invasions (10/21/2019 6:27:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

Pratically at the same time, beach defense is impossible because ground units are in 'coastal hexes' and thus can be bombed into oblivion though?
Translating - don't do Atlantic Wall or your troops dies horribly (Exactly as it is in Strategic Command, even if it works differently: anything on the beaches gets screwed over by insane amphibious land units that can attack from the transports without getting fired back...)


Not true. Do the Atlantic Wall on land hexes not beach hexes. I took the 1944 scenario and highlighted in red all the beach hexes. Beach hexes get hammered by air. The units are on the beach defenseless. Other hexes they do not.



[image]local://upfiles/45679/3E714330D8C047A295BDAC8A2083A270.jpg[/image]



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Invasions (10/21/2019 6:30:08 PM)

If all the land hexes were filled with Axis units then only the beach hexes would be invadable.

If the Axis put a bunch of units on the beaches then those units would easily get destroyed by Allied air power.

Notice the Axis can defend Calais pretty easily which they should.



AlbertN -> RE: Invasions (10/21/2019 6:41:48 PM)

Thanks for the clarification there. Now it fits well and at the same time allows the Allies to always be able to invade then.
Beach hexes work well (in similar way to the 'beacheads' I proposed above).

Is there any penalty to attack from a Beach Hex inland? (ie a column shift, like a 2:1 drops down to 1:1 or 3:2 depending on how columns are arranged)



Essro -> RE: Invasions (10/21/2019 7:16:25 PM)

Aha! That screenshot alone cleared up a lot of questions I had. I see what your doing there and at a glance, I like it.

I am really looking forward to this title (more so than any other game in recent years) and I too have a lot of questions, most of which I think will be answered as soon as I play a few turns.






sol_invictus -> RE: Invasions (10/21/2019 7:33:52 PM)

Can Coastal Defense Support Units be built only on full land hexes or coastal hexes and not on the beach hexes themselves? The rules seem to imply this.



AlbertN -> RE: Invasions (10/21/2019 7:40:31 PM)

In that screenshot it just looks like the Allied airforce will obliterate anything that moves too!



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Invasions (10/21/2019 9:55:27 PM)

Beach/Coastal hex - As you can see from the screen shot it is any hex that has more water than land and isn't all water.

Invasion on beach or land - If you land on a beach you take damage depending on the weather and surrounding enemy units. Not much. Armor can invade but takes more of this damage. You also land with 50% of your operation points which means you can attack and move inland.

Attacking out from beach - no penalty.

Coastal Defense support build - Only on land hexes. They add defense vs any units attacking from a beach.

Allied air force - Yes. It is like it was. Massive Allied air superiority striking Axis units reducing supply and movement. Oh yes there is movement interdiction in this game from air strikes. But The Axis units won't get wiped off the map..... well unless they decide to occupy the beaches and sunbath. Then yes they will be obliterated.




Michael T -> RE: Invasions (10/21/2019 10:14:45 PM)

I am going to see how this invasion rule set plays out. But the Naval support rule is still worrying me. It seems on the face of it naval units are going to unduly influence battles inland that they could not historically. I would rather they could only support combat in an actual coastal or beach hex. Not the next hex inland.



Essro -> RE: Invasions (10/21/2019 10:53:53 PM)

Indeed we'll need to see how this all plays out.

I would argue that it is difficult to say how much impact significant naval assets have beyond the obvious naval gunfire support, which I agree would be of limited value so far inland. And to be honest, practically all of the grand strategy ww2 have similar issues (mostly due to scale).

But consider the impact of the presence of the fleet alone---supply ships, hospital ships, radio relays, naval gunfire, massive amounts of AA covering a fair amount of real estate, the list goes on and on, let alone if they have a carrier or two. Normandy is a prime example. The OKW would have probably argued that that the fleets influence (not just naval gunfire) actually extended well into the hexes beyond the beaches and perhaps throughout most of the peninsula. It was a major concern for many reasons. They spent considerable effort worrying about it, and I think it's within the realm of our games (which are abstract anyhow) to allow for such rules, provided they result in a reasonable outcome of course.

Conversely, think of it this way: can you imagine landing in Normandy with NO fleet behind you....just transports? We all know there are a ton of games out there that would allow this.

Either way, as before Michael T brings up good points to consider. I'm actually keeping a list of specific mechanics that I want to look at in detail once I'm able to play. I'll add to this to it. Perhaps once the game is released I'll put out my impressions.



Michael T -> RE: Invasions (10/21/2019 11:18:50 PM)

Perhaps full support for the beach or coastal hex, then a fraction for an inland hex, and only from the capital ships.



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