RE: Partisans??? (Full Version)

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Meteor2 -> RE: Partisans??? (10/27/2019 9:16:13 PM)

I agree. Corps are an overkill for the task.
I am in August 41 (!) and until now 4 Partisan units have appeared in the Hinterland and resulting in frontline
Units out of supply.
Feels not correct.
Partisan fighting was done on battalion and regiment scale. Not corps.
And the effect was minor on a strategic scale, exeption maybe Yugoslavia in the late war.



Michael T -> RE: Partisans??? (10/27/2019 9:25:09 PM)

They are OP and unduly influencing the game. A new partisan method needs to be designed IMO.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Partisans??? (10/27/2019 9:49:51 PM)

I think everyone is not understanding about non-unit partisans. They will damage rail but the rail will be repaired at a rate of 2 a turn. You don't have to chase down broken rail.

Only the physical units appear on the map and have to be destroyed.

Partisans were about 80k strong at the end of 1941. By 1943 they grew to 500,000 in Russia.

There is already a recommendation to make Divs block partisan entry on the map with a larger area. I decided to put that in the game for the 1st update.



niki_belucci -> RE: Partisans??? (10/27/2019 10:48:51 PM)

Maybe a "non-unit based" method could be a potential elegant solution? Hence instead of having to keep actual onboard units to garrison missions we could allocate certain Manpower Quota to the garrison efforts (e.g. similar to Reinf./Upgrade). The more MP you commit the less destruction through Partisans you get but you are trading off Manpower for that which hampers you in Unit production.



Michael T -> RE: Partisans??? (10/27/2019 11:20:02 PM)

But a blown up rail hex can mean no supply. So in Russia I envisage a multitude of rear area corps on rail lines just to guarantee supply. I really don't know why designers think players like fighting partisan wars. We don't like it. Just abstract it please.

I accept the partisans need to be factored in and security units required and allocated to anti partisan duties. I am happy to allocate resources to keep them reasonably under control. Happy to see the odd negative affect even with correct garrison. But I really do not wish to be spending time setting up optimal rail net guard system and chasing up rear area partisans in Russia. I really want to just allocate the forces and forget it, and every now and then some random thing happens that is attributed to partisans.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Partisans??? (10/27/2019 11:59:13 PM)

Interestingly enough WarPlan had no unit partisan units until beta test. The beta testers asked for it so it was implemented.



AlbertN -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 12:35:31 AM)

Divisions with ZoC won't cut it.

As it is now, screw what they said the beta testers and remove the partisan all together.

Even if 2 rails a turn are repaired, 4-6 rails a turn are destroyed. (or so happened in my games)
At that rate, by '42 supply will be a nightmare everywhere.

Just remove the partisans and be done with.

Alas there is only -1- game that got partisans straight, and that is a tabletop game.
How do they work there? They appear in -non clear terrain- and not in ZoC, and have a 3 hex range to hit (These are the cells - cannot be removed, or anything unless by the play of some options, won't enter there).
The 'Partisan' side player does not know what that partisan cell will do, it's an incognita. Once they decide to fire the partisan attack the counter is flipped to the other side, and it can vary from a 'no effect' to 'out of supply' (it puts -1- unit out of supply, just imagine, the depot of that division was blown up), it can damage one air unit (damage in that game means the next turn the air unit is simply repaired instead of flying, think here the partisan 'eats' 1 action of the 2 of 1 air unit, it can hit a rail - it does not destroy the rail, it eats rail / strategic movement instead, for a game like Warplan is pratically subtract 10 or 20 from your total allotment of rail traffic for the turn)

The basic partisans are like 50% no effect and then a mix of other effects that I just listed a few of, of about 8-10 effects they may have.

The Partisan Player can select options, once per year, to add another batch of Partisans in the cup where they're fished at random, 1 per turn. (Soviet and West are two separate entities, so 2 total if so), which have better outcomes (pratically it shrinks the chance of the partisan cell to have no effect). - Given to play these options has a cost.

Now that is an elegant and functioning way to handle partisan. The Soviets / West won't know if that partisan will have an effect, and when it has effect, it's a nuisance. (In that game the out of supply status simply implies halved attack value, a unit does not begin to melt away and so forth, that's called being isolated).
The options mirror efforts to fuel / equip partisan in the style of the West to Tito. Later on Partisan can also get to be fighting units (But you need to select options for, and options in comparison are better attack, more plane production, offensive in the mud, name this or that general with special bonuses, etc - so to boost partisans a player has to sacrifice something else). Being an option repeatable yearly it means also that in '43 partisans will be more efficient than '41.

But partisans can even be many, but in the end of the day they stand no chance against trained troops.



Manstein63 -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 2:14:33 PM)

I am wondering what level of the Game are you all playing because if you are playing on a hard / very hard level then the partisans would have more of an effect than say in an easy or historical game.
Manstein 63



Zovs -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 2:19:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

As it is now, screw what they said the beta testers and remove the partisan all together.



That is a very nice and constructive statement. Al introduced partisans and we worked with him to get it right and balanced. I think your over reacting,



AlbertN -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 2:25:20 PM)

I am quite confident I am not over reacting here.
I just expressed a blunt opinion without grand reservations, and on my end it is constructive and positive to suggest an alternative that is more viable from my perspective.

If I was complaining, I'd just say 'Partisan does not work'. The positive part is the suggesting the removal of a broken system.

How the fact it is broken eluded the beta-testers simply suggests me that testers were more focused on just playing the game than testing out things.
Just a deduction coming out - seeing a variety of posts about supposed problems that would have easily emerged over time and experimentation (From the Heavy Panzer Mech, to the lack of generation of Influence Points and so forth)
Given, I understand rarely balance is tested out - due to that emerging through multiplayer experiences more so than the default testing practices which are single player ones.




MOS96B2P -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 2:51:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

make Divs block partisan entry on the map with a larger area. I decided to put that in the game for the 1st update.



It will be interesting to give this a try and see how it works out. I'm having fairly good success guarding the Main Supply Route (MSR) with small corps as my panzers head for the Baku oil fields. It will be a welcome ability to use divisions for this task instead. It will also make the divisions much more useful.



Zovs -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 3:16:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith
How the fact it is broken eluded the beta-testers simply suggests me that testers were more focused on just playing the game than testing out things.


That is quite a derisive attack on the beta testers!

On the contrary we spent many hours actually play testing and testing things out, play the game was a side effect.

I really find some of your posts offensive, you are making broad attacks with no facts.

We all spent many many hours testing out the game, including the partisan aspect and I don't think they are broken.



Toby42 -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 3:46:24 PM)

I'm just working my way through the game playing with the Historical settings. I'm getting ten or more Partisan hits per turn. I don't enjoy chasing around the map catching partisans!



MOS96B2P -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 4:17:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Toby42

I'm just working my way through the game playing with the Historical settings. I'm getting ten or more Partisan hits per turn. I don't enjoy chasing around the map catching partisans!


By partisan hits do you mean railroad damage or actual partisan units you have to react to and destroy? Maybe I'm not far enough in the game but I've only actually seen one partisan unit. It was a very weak partisan unit which was easy to destroy. I do get up to five damaged railroads on some turns (mostly in France where I'm not being proactive in guarding the rail lines since its not necessary right now). There is nothing for the player to do about the damaged rail lines except wait for them to be automatically repaired. So I've only seen one partisan unit and to be fair it didn't run. Just sat still until a security division easily destroyed it.



Dr. Foo -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 4:37:54 PM)

If you really don't like partisan (I don't), you can edit them out of the game. Go to Editor and to the Country tab, in each country there is a Partisans % and check, make both 0 for every country and then they will be gone, or you can lower it for less partisan activity in a given county.



MOS96B2P -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 4:51:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr. Foo

If you really don't like partisan (I don't), you can edit them out of the game. Go to Editor and to the Country tab, in each country there is a Partisans % and check, make both 0 for every country and then they will be gone, or you can lower it for less partisan activity in a given county.


I'm still trying out all the game concepts so I'm keeping an open mind. So far partisans seem okay to me. But still the above editor information you posted is very useful / helpful. It will basically solve the partisan issue for players that decide they don't like them.



AlbertN -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 4:57:33 PM)

quote:

If you really don't like partisan (I don't), you can edit them out of the game. Go to Editor and to the Country tab, in each country there is a Partisans % and check, make both 0 for every country and then they will be gone, or you can lower it for less partisan activity in a given county.


That works in SP, but not in MP.



Jim D Burns -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 5:01:18 PM)

I enjoy the partisan game, it adds difficulty to the game and saps front line strength making it harder to clear the map early. It also forces you to peruse your rear areas from time to time helping me miss an oversight or ten in my defenses sometimes. That said I would not be opposed to partisans reducing supply levels instead of breaking the rail completely in one hit.

So for example have each hit reduce the rail supply level by 2 and then allow rails to repair one point a turn. So a 9 becomes a 7 and every rail line from that break towards the front line can not go above 7 until the line is repaired. So to completely break a line would require 5 hits in a row (no repairs allowed on a line if it gets hit that turn).

Jim



Toby42 -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 5:40:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MOS96B2P


quote:

ORIGINAL: Toby42

I'm just working my way through the game playing with the Historical settings. I'm getting ten or more Partisan hits per turn. I don't enjoy chasing around the map catching partisans!


By partisan hits do you mean railroad damage or actual partisan units you have to react to and destroy? Maybe I'm not far enough in the game but I've only actually seen one partisan unit. It was a very weak partisan unit which was easy to destroy. I do get up to five damaged railroads on some turns (mostly in France where I'm not being proactive in guarding the rail lines since its not necessary right now). There is nothing for the player to do about the damaged rail lines except wait for them to be automatically repaired. So I've only seen one partisan unit and to be fair it didn't run. Just sat still until a security division easily destroyed it.


Actual units!



abulbulian -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 6:01:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Interestingly enough WarPlan had no unit partisan units until beta test. The beta testers asked for it so it was implemented.



I wasn't a beta tester, wanted to be, but applied a little late. That said, partisans are quite broken in this game. I say that with 30 years experience designing and testing these types of war games. Add to that my 35 years experience studying WW2 (400+ books read and extensive research).

First of all the fact that a partisan unit (ON THE MAP) in a corps level game shows up in the first week of July 41 only < 1 month after the Germans attacked is fantasy. Partisan units where not that well organized in 41/42and a great deal of the population, especially Ukraine and Baltic States, saw the German initially as liberators. I could write a short novel on the effectiveness of partisans between 41-45 on the eastern front, but I'll sum it up that in Warplan partisans in general are way out of proportion to their historical contribution.

Also, the below rule/feature of the game is broken for sure. I've had numerous partisan activities occur one hex away from corps (non-garrisoned) type units.

quote:

Any unit protects vs partisans in their own hex. Corps and Armies protect vs partisans in their hex and the surrounding 6 hexes.


I really hope partisans are fixed in the near term and later overhauled to partisan zones as I spoke about in an earlier comments. I'm willing to help here if needed.

The enjoyment of the game for me as the axis has taken a huge dip with this issue of partisans. I think sometimes game designers fall into the trap of listening to a minority of people that have an unrealistic view of the factor of partisans in WW2. Sure maybe for some it's a patriotic fascination, but don't let partisans be the feature that distorts the historical facts and enjoyment of the game. Also, keep in mind that the victors in wars control the narrative of facts when they write history. This is never more clear than with Stalin during and after WW2. So much of what you read about Soviets partisans in WW2 should be offset with this fact in mind. Were partisan activities very annoying to the Germans on the eastern front, for sure. Was it a game changer or a significant factor for them, no. They had much bigger issues that caused their demise in WW2.



MOS96B2P -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 6:02:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Toby42


quote:

ORIGINAL: MOS96B2P


quote:

ORIGINAL: Toby42

I'm just working my way through the game playing with the Historical settings. I'm getting ten or more Partisan hits per turn. I don't enjoy chasing around the map catching partisans!


By partisan hits do you mean railroad damage or actual partisan units you have to react to and destroy? Maybe I'm not far enough in the game but I've only actually seen one partisan unit. It was a very weak partisan unit which was easy to destroy. I do get up to five damaged railroads on some turns (mostly in France where I'm not being proactive in guarding the rail lines since its not necessary right now). There is nothing for the player to do about the damaged rail lines except wait for them to be automatically repaired. So I've only seen one partisan unit and to be fair it didn't run. Just sat still until a security division easily destroyed it.


Actual units!


Wow..... 10 partisan units per turn on historical settings does seem like a lot. Very different from my experience so far on historical settings. I'll have to continue on and see what develops...... 5th Panzer Army is closing on Rostov en-route to the Baku oil fields........ [:)]



Essro -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 6:12:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

I wasn't a beta tester, wanted to be, but applied a little late. That said, partisans are quite broken in this game. I say that with 30 years experience designing and testing these types of war games. Add to that my 35 years experience studying WWII (400+ books read and extensive research).

First of all the fact that a partisan unit (ON THE MAP) in a corps level game shows up in the first week of July 41 only < 1 month after the Germans attacked is fantasy. Partisan units where not that well organized in 41/42and a great deal of the population, especially Ukraine and Baltic States, saw the German initially as liberators. I could write a short novel on the effectiveness of partisans between 41-45 on the eastern front, but I'll sum it up that in Warplan partisans in general are way out of proportion to their historical contribution.



Agreed.



Numdydar -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 6:35:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Sure maybe for some it's a patriotic fascination, but don't let partisans be the feature that distorts the historical facts and enjoyment of the game. Also, keep in mind that the victors in wars control the narrative of facts when they write history. This is never more clear than with Stalin during and after WW2. So much of what you read about Soviets partisans in WW2 should be offset with this fact in mind. Were partisan activities very annoying to the Germans on the eastern front, for sure. Was it a game changer or a significant factor for them, no. They had much bigger issues that caused their demise in WW2.


I have to disagree with this at least with what I have found out. Mainly with this quote,

"The Soviet partisan activities was a strategic factor in the defeat of the German forces on the Soviet-German front. During the summer and autumn of 1942, when partisan warfare did not reach its highest peak, the German Army devoted about 10 percent of its overall strength in fighting partisans, including 15 regular and security divisions and 144 security and police battalions. At the same time, the total strength of German and Italian forces in North Africa was 12 divisions. The partisans made significant contributions to the war effort by interrupting German plans to exploit Soviet territories economically. German forces obtained only one-seventh of what they looted from other European countries. While about $1 billion worth of food and other products were expropriated from Soviet territories by the Germans, more than $26 billion worth of goods and services were extracted from other European countries."

As I said before in my earlier post, a much better way imho would be just to have production that has Partisan and anti-Partisan points created. Some ratio between the two determines what happens on the map. This solves the issue with ZOC, chasing units down, etc.

Don't want partisans causing issues, crank up anti-partisan points. Want to wreck havoc on rail line, do the opposite.



AlbertN -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 7:23:06 PM)

I am not sure where these numbers were taken from, I've read way the opposite through various books and essays about how insignificant in the grand scope was the partisan contribution to the war.

I've elaborated it earlier on already anyhow on the topic.




abulbulian -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 7:32:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Sure maybe for some it's a patriotic fascination, but don't let partisans be the feature that distorts the historical facts and enjoyment of the game. Also, keep in mind that the victors in wars control the narrative of facts when they write history. This is never more clear than with Stalin during and after WW2. So much of what you read about Soviets partisans in WW2 should be offset with this fact in mind. Were partisan activities very annoying to the Germans on the eastern front, for sure. Was it a game changer or a significant factor for them, no. They had much bigger issues that caused their demise in WW2.


I have to disagree with this at least with what I have found out. Mainly with this quote,

"The Soviet partisan activities was a strategic factor in the defeat of the German forces on the Soviet-German front. During the summer and autumn of 1942, when partisan warfare did not reach its highest peak, the German Army devoted about 10 percent of its overall strength in fighting partisans, including 15 regular and security divisions and 144 security and police battalions. At the same time, the total strength of German and Italian forces in North Africa was 12 divisions. The partisans made significant contributions to the war effort by interrupting German plans to exploit Soviet territories economically. German forces obtained only one-seventh of what they looted from other European countries. While about $1 billion worth of food and other products were expropriated from Soviet territories by the Germans, more than $26 billion worth of goods and services were extracted from other European countries."

As I said before in my earlier post, a much better way imho would be just to have production that has Partisan and anti-Partisan points created. Some ratio between the two determines what happens on the map. This solves the issue with ZOC, chasing units down, etc.

Don't want partisans causing issues, crank up anti-partisan points. Want to wreck havoc on rail line, do the opposite.



You are falling into the propaganda trap as many do. Those number can be disputed, but even if you believe them. Think about the strength of those units and whether they would be trying to rest from front line combat even if not on partisan control duties. I not discounting that the Axis fighting partisan was not a strain on their already depleting logistics and manpower, but in Warplan it is out of all proportion to their historical significance. As the developer has stated, this is a corps level game. Using partisan zones in which the Axis would have to allocate manpower/resources would sever the game much better in a historical context and easy of play.



Michael T -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 9:02:16 PM)

Actually I don't want to edit the game. As I play other people I think it's important that there is 'one' official scenario for each start date that PBEM players can challenge each other with.



Essro -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 9:27:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

Using partisan zones in which the Axis would have to allocate manpower/resources would sever the game much better in a historical context and easy of play.


I sort of like this solution. But I'd still allow for a RARE partisan on the map provided the locations made more sense.

Also, I'm not clear on what is happening with regards to how my units affect where the partisans hit. I'm certain they've hit adjacent to my units

For me the issue (if there is one) is this:

Partisans were a strategic consideration for everyone and they definitely impacted the war. As has been pointed out, a lost of German effort was spent in many ways (security troops, frontline troops, ugly SS stuff, and the list goes on forever).

Partisans are a complex subject. It is near impossible to address such a complex and varied military element in a game such as this (which is abstract to begin with). Even Churchill had to consider it...how would it play into any potential Balkan campaign? Who to support in Yugoslavia? Do we send them guns? Is it enough? and so on and so forth.

Then, on top all that you'd have to consider French Partisans, Russian Partisans, and Yugoslavian(absurdly complex situation) Partisans are all totally different and operated in totally different ways. So unless we implement something super complex in response, we have to accept the variation at the edges.

So yeah, it's complex beyond the scope of the game obviously and that's okay, we just want something that gives a nod to the very real threat of partisans without disrupting gameplay too much. So here is my opinion based on my 3 games so far.

-right now, there is too much whack a mole with these units. I'm fine with partisan units on the map but not so many. Nobody likes whack a mole. If I hit one of these things with a division let alone a corps, they should be toast. But right now, they retreat and they retreat and they just keep going. Fine. But it's not fun.

-I like the Partisans blowing up railroads but it needs to be tied to a garrison value or something I can abstractly adjust.

-I like the occasional Partisan unit showing up. But the locations right now are odd. And there's just slightly too many.









Numdydar -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 10:59:31 PM)

As far as I know, and Michael can correct me as needed :), Yugoslavia was the only country that actually real formations that would make sense at this scale. By late '44 they had 500,000 troops/partisans active.

Of course in Russia, there were huge areas behind the front lines that we totally controlled by partisans as well. Obviously areas that the Germans did not care about.

"By the end of 1943, partisans controlled more than 100 thousand square km. of Belarus, which was about 60 percent of the republic's territory. The partisans controlled more than 20 regional centers and thousands of villages. By the time of the return of the Soviet Army, most of the Belorussian SSR was in the hands partisan groups and the actual size of republic controlled by the Germans was small."

How to reflect this in the scale of this game is a different story.




Numdydar -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 11:00:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

I am not sure where these numbers were taken from, I've read way the opposite through various books and essays about how insignificant in the grand scope was the partisan contribution to the war.

I've elaborated it earlier on already anyhow on the topic.




Here is my source if you are interested.

Leonid D. Grenkevich. The Soviet Partisan Movement, 1941-1944: A Critical Historiographical Analysis.Routledge. 2013. p.324



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Partisans??? (10/28/2019 11:57:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

IIRC partisans can't operate within 6 hexes of a Corp. So build a few small corp and deploy as required.


In my game Poland is currently stuffed with German units, but partisans are hitting rails very close to the units (I want to say I've seen adjacent attacks, but not sure. Within 2 hexes for sure though), so if you're right about how the rule should work, it's not working as intended.

Jim


I'll take a look at this. They shouldn't be.



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