When does the USSR surrender? (Full Version)

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Meteor2 -> When does the USSR surrender? (10/28/2019 9:39:17 PM)

All Victory points under controll. No surrendering? [&:]

By the way: A Full scale invasion of France took place in Jun 43.
Not bad for the AI. Only the allied airforce in south of England was passive in that operation.



gravyhair -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/28/2019 9:51:01 PM)

I don't think they do. I read somewhere in the documentation that USSR and UK never surrender.



MOS96B2P -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/28/2019 10:06:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Meteor2

All Victory points under controll. No surrendering? [&:]

By the way: A Full scale invasion of France took place in Jun 43.
Not bad for the AI. Only the allied airforce in south of England was passive in that operation.


On the war panel the Soviet Union is shown to have "Endless" morale. Which I think means they will not surrender. Same for the United Kingdom,USA, and a few others.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/28/2019 11:03:59 PM)

I was considering them surrendering when all their cities are taken just so it feels better.



Michael T -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/28/2019 11:14:19 PM)

Gets my vote.



MOS96B2P -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/29/2019 1:40:19 AM)

Gets my vote also.



Worg64 -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/29/2019 1:42:38 AM)

Yes thats sounds better. Should go for both Brittain and Soviet.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/29/2019 2:38:57 AM)

The only thing about the UK is if you force them to surrender the Allies can never come back as the USA can't do it alone.

Mostly it's for the achievement. While historically the Russians would never surrender players need to feel good about winning.



Fintilgin -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/29/2019 7:17:57 PM)

I think something should be done to make capturing the Russian core more... meaningful? Satisfying?

Right now capturing Moscow feels no more meaningful an achievement then capturing Minsk. There's no morale/surrender benefit to conquest, so why spend huge resources trying to bust open Leningrad when you can just garrison some Finns outside and forget about it...?

I do think it should be possible to force a Russian surrender, even if there are strict garrison requirements for the surrendered area. Taking Leningrad/Moscow/Stalingrad/Baku (none of which the historic Germans took in reality) ought to bring the Soviets to the table.

I think beating Russia should be harder, but it should be able to 'win'.

EDIT: But there should be heavy garrison requirements.



mavraamides -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/29/2019 7:53:58 PM)

Maybe have sort of a negotiated surrender with Russia where they move their capital east of the Urals and create a separate nation while Germany gets west of the Urals?
Kind of like Vichy France, Russia style.




Rasputitsa -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/29/2019 8:14:48 PM)

If you make it possible for the Soviets to surrender, then I hope that the editor will still allow the 'endless' option to be selected, as this is the historical situation.

Apart from wavering at the beginning of 'Barbarossa', Stalin did not contemplate negotiation, nor surrender, as the war progressed and Hitler also had no interest in negotiation, but intended to set up an 'East Wall' for perpetual warfare with what remained of the Soviet State, East of the Urals, with the expectation that this would maintain the 'health' of the nation.

Endless is the historical selection for the Soviet Union.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/29/2019 9:40:36 PM)

Yes there is a setting in their "break point". If you set it to below zero it goes to "never surrenders".

I must ponder these situations...



wosung -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/30/2019 7:33:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

The only thing about the UK is if you force them to surrender the Allies can never come back as the USA can't do it alone.

Mostly it's for the achievement. While historically the Russians would never surrender players need to feel good about winning.


Just want to say that maybe not all players want the Russians to be able to surrender. In fact, when I noticed that in Warplan Russia won't surrender, I thought this game is something special. It gets a crucial aspect of WW2 right. The German war against Russia just was not about surrender. Thus, also partisans should not stop to turn up.

But just to avoid WITE like heated debates about ... the War in the East, it's nature and games: Would it be possible to have a surrender/no surrender option? Arguably this also could avoid having the same discussion about China, when Pacific Warplan gets out.

Best regards




Zovs -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/30/2019 9:49:44 AM)

Russia would never surrender and the partisans are fine.




AlbertN -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/30/2019 11:10:17 AM)

We cannot really know if Russia would surrender or not tbh, since that is a 'what if' situation.
We may speculate, agree or disagree.



Meteor2 -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/30/2019 11:36:48 AM)

In my first full game:
Mid of 43 all major cities in the USSR were captured.
After that (because the USSR never surrendered), it was only a boring end game in the east.
I found that not reasonable, because I was swimming in oil, production and everything else.
No way to question the Victory in the east!
During that time, still partisans were appearing. With the soviet side being practically defeated, I would guess, that no partisan unit would have ever appeared again
due to the pointlessness of resistance.



wosung -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/30/2019 11:43:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

We cannot really know if Russia would surrender or not tbh, since that is a 'what if' situation.
We may speculate, agree or disagree.


Therefore it would be better to have both option.

Besides, arguably the more important question is if Nazi Germany was interested in a Soviet capitulation at all: (Generalplan Ost, siege of Leningrad). Due to the different archive policies we know much more about German planning than about Soviet planning.

You could argue, it's a game. Playing the Germans I decide to accept a Soviet capitulation. But that would mean to ignore the very precondition of the Russo-German war.



Zovs -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/30/2019 12:34:37 PM)

From my understanding I think the Russians (Soviets proper here) would have continued the war from the Urals and returned to Europe at one point.

However from a game's perspective I understand the points made. Thank the good Lord that the Russians did not capitulate and gutted the Germany Army and worked with (hesitantly) with the Western Allies to defeat Nazi Germany and Hitler.

Just mho...



AlvaroSousa -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/30/2019 1:37:54 PM)

The Russians would have NEVER surrendered. The Germans did have a surrender plan on the table. Arkhangelsk to Astrakhan. Whether the Russians would take that would be doubtful since all their industry was in the Urals.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/30/2019 1:38:29 PM)

I am still debating on my head the surrender option.



Rasputitsa -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/30/2019 5:50:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

The Russians would have NEVER surrendered. The Germans did have a surrender plan on the table. Arkhangelsk to Astrakhan. Whether the Russians would take that would be doubtful since all their industry was in the Urals.


Hitler had a final objective line, to become the East Wall, but I don't think that it was every contemplated as a position for a negotiated surrender, the Generalplan Ost that Hitler had for a subjugated Soviet Union made surrender impossible.



Numdydar -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/30/2019 5:51:06 PM)

At some point everyone gives up. To say that the USSR would never have surrendered is unrealistic. Regardless of what was 'planned' during the real war.

There are countless countries that no longer exist due to one reason or another. And who is to say Stalin would have stayed in power if Leningrad (and should that be St. Petersburg now :), Moscow, and Stalingrad had been taken? Same thing with Churchill if London and say Manchester were captured.

So there should be some 'surrender' mechanism for everyone in the game.



Flaviusx -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/30/2019 5:58:06 PM)

Okay, they surrender when the Germans get to Sverdlovsk.

In game terms, that is never.

What folks are looking for here is some kind of traditional Moscow/Leningrad/Stalingrad surrender condition, and that traditional metric has always been wrong.

Nor is necessary to actually get a formal surrender to effectively "win" in the Eastern Front.

The way the game is presently set up the Axis can reach something like the old AA line, stop, and leave a major garrison force in place to hold their gains, but also start stripping the East of forces. The Soviets will never recover from this. They will still be in the game, and holding down substantial German forces, rather like the Chinese did with Japan, but that is it.

And this is fine. It forces the Germans to at least keep a major force in the East to occupy this vast area.



Rasputitsa -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/30/2019 8:00:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

At some point everyone gives up. To say that the USSR would never have surrendered is unrealistic. Regardless of what was 'planned' during the real war.

There are countless countries that no longer exist due to one reason or another. And who is to say Stalin would have stayed in power if Leningrad (and should that be St. Petersburg now :), Moscow, and Stalingrad had been taken? Same thing with Churchill if London and say Manchester were captured.

So there should be some 'surrender' mechanism for everyone in the game.


I think the point here is that Hitler was not going to let the Soviets surrender, his objective was annihilation. This changed after Stalingrad and realism sunk in, but after that event there was no prospect of a Soviet surrender.

Agreed on Britain, even though Churchill said no surrender, if German tanks had reached London realism would have meant surrender. The difference being that Hitler would have allowed a British surrender and would have issued terms, whilst for the British on a small island there was no vast Steppe to retreat into.



Numdydar -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/30/2019 11:56:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Okay, they surrender when the Germans get to Sverdlovsk.

In game terms, that is never.

What folks are looking for here is some kind of traditional Moscow/Leningrad/Stalingrad surrender condition, and that traditional metric has always been wrong.

Nor is necessary to actually get a formal surrender to effectively "win" in the Eastern Front.

The way the game is presently set up the Axis can reach something like the old AA line, stop, and leave a major garrison force in place to hold their gains, but also start stripping the East of forces. The Soviets will never recover from this. They will still be in the game, and holding down substantial German forces, rather like the Chinese did with Japan, but that is it.

And this is fine. It forces the Germans to at least keep a major force in the East to occupy this vast area.


Countries have been annihilated as well that many thought would 'never' fall. At some point, Russia and Germany would have come to terms. What those terms would have been and where the border would have been are up for debate.

So I disagree that WP 'has got it right' in regards to a Russian surrender. At some point people just see there is no reason to keep fighting so why bother. In other words their sense of self preservation outweighs their sense of national identity.

Even Japan with their 'we will never give up' attitude, which was much stronger than Russia's, surrendered without being completed conquered. I see no reason why Russia should be so different.



Michael T -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/31/2019 12:04:45 AM)

I am not going to get in to the debate again about this. I made my feelings well known in the WITE forum. I am in the camp for surrender to be a possibility. It's a game after all, and forcing the Soviets to surrender after demolishing them (which will be rare anyhow) would be fun, and something to be worn as a badge of honour. I vote for fun in this debate. Just make it optional so like minded players can play with it. That's the best solution.



Michael T -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/31/2019 12:14:41 AM)

I should add, that the most advanced and played board game on the matter, which still has a vibrant following (I am talking GMT's A World at War). Has sophisticated surrender rules for every belligerent bar the USA. No one complains about those rules in the board game world. I don't play WIF, but I am guessing it would have sensible surrender rules for Russia too, or at least some kind of negotiated peace rules.



Flaviusx -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/31/2019 2:52:13 AM)

The better comparison here is with China, not Japan.

What would it take to force a Chinese surrender? The Japanese never came close to figuring that out. They took the major productive regions of China, drove deep into the interior, and the Chinese, both Nationalist and Communist, kept on trucking, despite a far more catastrophic situation than the Soviets ever faced or would have faced even if they'd lost the three major cities and the oil regions. They still had major productive capacity in Chelyabinsk, Sverdlovsk, etc.

I think the Germans, like the Japanese, could've crippled their larger opponent, but yet find themselves far short of ending the war.

In this circumstance, the Soviets would be bailed out by the Western allies, which is what happened with Japan and China, too. And the game does allow for this to happen, which is the correct design.

If you take the Soviets off the map by some traditional gaming metric, that's a gift to the Germans they never would've had in real life. They would've been stuck leaving major portions of the military holding down their conquests and keeping rump USSR at bay, just as Japan had to with China.




AlbertN -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/31/2019 3:17:39 AM)

Let's flip the coin around.

Besides the 'surrender', would a game have a sense in its continuation, if the Soviets were cast into the Urals here?

In some games, the Soviets still retain a kicking force (read, World in Flames. Soviets in the Urals can come back nicely late on).

But here Soviets do not really have a huge off map production or the like.

I just believe the perspective is - if Soviets are down to their knees, has the game a mean to be continued? Can the Western Allies of their own crush the Axis? [Talking of in-game terms. Historically, on the paper sure USA could crush anything. If they were ready to pay the toll that's another story. It's widely known how Churchill for instance dreaded the continental war until they were super ready to tackle the Germans with overwhelming forces]



MOS96B2P -> RE: When does the USSR surrender? (10/31/2019 1:53:22 PM)

If the PTO is added to this game then I assume the eastern part of the Soviet Union will also be on the map. So the thinking about the best way to handle a Soviet surrender (or no surrender) will also have to consider the entire USSR depicted on the map.



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