Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (Full Version)

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Zemke -> Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (10/31/2019 7:39:55 PM)

Issue 1

I was playing Germany and had Leningrad surrounded, and killed off all units except the one in the City itself and the adjacent port hex. I attacked several times in good weather for several turns and the unit seems to gain back ALL it's strength. It this how it should work?

Next I had a huge pocket around Moscow with 15 +/- Soviet units in the pocket about 8-10 hexes North to South and about 4-6 hexes deep. Moscow was the only supply source, all rail was cut with several units covering those rail lines behind the pocket, in other words it was sealed tight. Yet all the units acted as if they were still in good supply. How can one city supply 10-15 Soviet Army size units? I find this very unrealistic, if this is what is happening.



Zemke -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (10/31/2019 7:45:58 PM)

Issue 2

Also, I forgot this...I had a Pz Corp that was at 21 strength. I pulled it off the line to rebuild with replacements. It never gained a man, then I moved it to Berlin, gave it a HQ there, and it never seemed to gain back it's strength. What gives with that? If any of the above have been "fixed" in the last two patches, then disregard, if not can anyone tell us what if going on with the supply and replacement systems?



Flaviusx -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (10/31/2019 7:54:22 PM)

Did you put the panzer korps on priority for replacements? That should do the trick.



Zemke -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (10/31/2019 7:55:30 PM)

I did, but I have not tested this since the two patches. Also, now with the lasted patch the map scrolling is messed up. It will not move N-S smoothly and the mouse has to be "just right" for the screen to move at all. It was not this way when I bought the game.

It may be my machine, who knows.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (10/31/2019 8:38:24 PM)

I readjusted the map scroll because it was interfering with the menu buttons. Guess I did it too much



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (10/31/2019 8:39:52 PM)

As for supply. Any production center is a supply source

Reinforce. Set priority.



bjfagan -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (10/31/2019 9:56:34 PM)

I was going to post something about this. So basically there is no longer a point to cutting off cities. This goes against all strategy plans ever used. Historically Leningrad was starving to death and barely survived when the lake froze over. I have had Leningrad cut off and there are no Soviet unit or hexes within 10 or so hexes from Leningrad, hence no possible way to supply it even over a frozen lake.

I would think that in order for cities to supply so units there should be a link between two or three cities or the off map connection for the Soviets. Even if London or Berlin where cut off they could not supply troops for very long.



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/1/2019 1:27:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

As for supply. Any production center is a supply source

Reinforce. Set priority.


Surely if completely cut-off from everywhere else, even a production centre should have reduced supply?



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/1/2019 2:14:00 PM)

It's tough to mimic in a computer game without making it gamey. It is on my list.



Numdydar -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/1/2019 2:34:16 PM)

The SC games all had the same issue. In SC:War in Europe, as the Allies I had massive German forces cutoff deep in Russia from all supply back to Germany that I was unable to destroy due to supply by cities. Russian cities I might add lol.

Wrote many threads about it too. Adjustments were made but it made me reluctant to retry the game as I'm not sure the adjustments were enough.

As far as I am concerned this is a major flaw in the game as needs to be fixed before anything is done in the Pacific. Can you imagine Japan trying to take Singapore or Manila with the cities keeping units in full supply?



Jim D Burns -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/1/2019 3:20:44 PM)

A possible simple solution to this is yes give them full supply, but allow no replacements if a supply source city is not able to trace supply to another supply source city. That way units still fight well but attrition over many combats will allow a reduction of the pocket over time thus you still need to earn the victory via combats.

Jim



toddtreadway -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/1/2019 5:16:33 PM)

It seems like cities should provide only a limited number of Supply Stockpile points, so that if a single city was cut off it would provide only a limited number of Supply Stockpile points.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/1/2019 7:29:24 PM)

Both these last ideas are good.



mavraamides -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/1/2019 8:04:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bjfagan

I was going to post something about this. So basically there is no longer a point to cutting off cities. This goes against all strategy plans ever used. Historically Leningrad was starving to death and barely survived when the lake froze over. I have had Leningrad cut off and there are no Soviet unit or hexes within 10 or so hexes from Leningrad, hence no possible way to supply it even over a frozen lake.

I would think that in order for cities to supply so units there should be a link between two or three cities or the off map connection for the Soviets. Even if London or Berlin where cut off they could not supply troops for very long.


To be fair, didn't Leningrad hold out for 900 days more or less?



mavraamides -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/1/2019 8:06:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

A possible simple solution to this is yes give them full supply, but allow no replacements if a supply source city is not able to trace supply to another supply source city. That way units still fight well but attrition over many combats will allow a reduction of the pocket over time thus you still need to earn the victory via combats.

Jim


I really like this idea. Simple and effective. Supply yes. Reinforcements no. Eventually, they will have to lose.



Flaviusx -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/1/2019 8:39:04 PM)

I would suggest putting whatever units are in there on basic supply, too, so they don't recover lost efficiency at the full rate. The full Stalingrad pocket treatment.



Flaviusx -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/1/2019 8:41:11 PM)

Note: Leningrad was never really fully cut off. Drew supply through Lake Ladoga, or at least enough to do the trick. And, yes, that includes during the winter too, once it froze enough to allow truck columns on the ice. But at the scale this game is at, I suppose this has all been simplified.



Zemke -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/2/2019 1:34:48 AM)

I am glad I posted.

Supply based on one city is too simple and not realistic. One city could not supply trained men to replace loses in one Soviet Army much less many.



Jim D Burns -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/2/2019 2:13:24 AM)

One thing to think about though, is air supply should allow some level of reinforcement. Not full recovery but a way to get at least some replacements in would then make for a nice small air campaign over the pocket area.

Jim



Patrat -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/2/2019 2:32:23 AM)

How about requiring a certain number of production cities having to be connected to each other in order to function fully.

An old wargame that I had years ago had the rule that Germany for instance, had to have 10 production centers connected to each other. If the number of connected production centers fell below 10, Germany went into economic collapse where the production centers could no longer produce and cities could only provide limited supply.

Perhaps some variation of this could be used in this game.

Also I would suggest, if possible, that no city could fully function as a supply source unless its connected to the home country production centers.



bjfagan -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/2/2019 8:37:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mavraamides


quote:

ORIGINAL: bjfagan

I was going to post something about this. So basically there is no longer a point to cutting off cities. This goes against all strategy plans ever used. Historically Leningrad was starving to death and barely survived when the lake froze over. I have had Leningrad cut off and there are no Soviet unit or hexes within 10 or so hexes from Leningrad, hence no possible way to supply it even over a frozen lake.

I would think that in order for cities to supply so units there should be a link between two or three cities or the off map connection for the Soviets. Even if London or Berlin where cut off they could not supply troops for very long.


To be fair, didn't Leningrad hold out for 900 days more or less?


You are correct, but only because the Soviet front lines were not far away. The railhead near Tikhvin allowed supplies to be dropped off and transported via boat to Leningrad (and by truck once the lake froze over). There is no way the city could have survived if the Germans had pushed further inland and capture the ports and railheads used to send supplies to the city.



george420 -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/2/2019 8:49:44 AM)

Yes, we noticed this also. Abstract game or not, it needs tweaking.



Worg64 -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/2/2019 10:13:29 AM)

I agree that isolated cities shouldnt have full supply.
Several good points is discussed. I like it simpe so I would like only basic supply if a city was isolated and limited resupply and/or replacments.
Air supply should be able to increase the supply level but maybe only partial.



Numdydar -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/2/2019 3:55:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

One thing to think about though, is air supply should allow some level of reinforcement. Not full recovery but a way to get at least some replacements in would then make for a nice small air campaign over the pocket area.

Jim


The scale is too big for that to be considered imho. Since we are talking Corp sized units and a two week time period.



MOS96B2P -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/2/2019 4:47:33 PM)

Air supply is already modeled in the game and works fairly well. It is very expensive to use, requires air transport and can be interdicted. So to supply several cut off corps holding a small pocket around a city via air would be only partially possible, expensive and difficult (as it should be). So IMO the focus can be on making the level of supply provided by the cut off cities, themselves, more realistic (reduced in some way).



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/2/2019 5:06:10 PM)

The issue is mostly coding these ideas depending how it is done.

Some ways of doing things require algorithms that have to explore a lot of the map many times. This would slow the turns down between actions a lot. When I say a lot I mean like 10x longer.



bjfagan -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/2/2019 5:41:58 PM)

Alvaro,

Sorry to post this here but since we are discussing supply I figured it would be a good place. It seems that ports are coded to provide supply no matter if there is a connection via sea hexes to a valid supply source. Is this correct?

After taking Leningrad, the Kronstad naval base hex stayed in supply with its unit and ships for many turns never appearing to suffer any loss due to lack of supplies. Also, my Italians have had their merchant marine wiped out but still manage to supply units at the different ports around the Med. So I was curious how the system determines if a port is able to receive the supplies it then distributes.



ncc1701e -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/2/2019 6:00:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mavraamides


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

A possible simple solution to this is yes give them full supply, but allow no replacements if a supply source city is not able to trace supply to another supply source city. That way units still fight well but attrition over many combats will allow a reduction of the pocket over time thus you still need to earn the victory via combats.

Jim


I really like this idea. Simple and effective. Supply yes. Reinforcements no. Eventually, they will have to lose.



Yes good idea.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/2/2019 8:05:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bjfagan

Alvaro,

Sorry to post this here but since we are discussing supply I figured it would be a good place. It seems that ports are coded to provide supply no matter if there is a connection via sea hexes to a valid supply source. Is this correct?

After taking Leningrad, the Kronstad naval base hex stayed in supply with its unit and ships for many turns never appearing to suffer any loss due to lack of supplies. Also, my Italians have had their merchant marine wiped out but still manage to supply units at the different ports around the Med. So I was curious how the system determines if a port is able to receive the supplies it then distributes.


Good place to bring it up. Seems like I missed this aspect. I will put it on my bug list.



Numdydar -> RE: Leningrad and Moscow Never ending Supply (11/4/2019 3:22:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

The issue is mostly coding these ideas depending how it is done.

Some ways of doing things require algorithms that have to explore a lot of the map many times. This would slow the turns down between actions a lot. When I say a lot I mean like 10x longer.


Agree with this comment. World in Flames supply calculations could take up to 5-10 minutes depending on computer speed. The developer has re-written this coding several times to get the calculations done to a more reasonable level (which he has been able to do).

A human can glance at a map and pretty quickly see who should be in/out of supply. But an AI has to look at every hex between a unit and a supply source. Plus start over if the original path is blocked. And repeat tracing paths until it determines there is no path.

This supply path has to go over water between ports as well. So a supply path for the computer can get get very complicated very fast. Not to mention the bugs that can occur lol.

But still something needs to be done about cut off cities providing supply.

One suggestion would be just to check the six hexes around a city for blocking terrain, ZOC or unit present? if all these conditions are met the city does not provide supply. As soon as one hex is found with none of the above it stops looking.

For a port city to blocked from supply, the above would still apply plus one additional check of the port being damaged or not. You could even add the level of the port not damaged provides a less amount of supply.

These suggestions might keep the processing time down and provide a reasonable solution to the issue.



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