Infantry in the game (Full Version)

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RedBunny -> Infantry in the game (11/2/2019 11:20:06 PM)

I know it's called Armored Brigade but how well is infantry modeled in the game? Does the game system handle primarily or exclusively infantry vs infantry scenarios well?




CCIP-subsim -> RE: Infantry in the game (11/3/2019 1:05:12 AM)

It can handle them - to be honest, I don't find infantry-only fights to be that engaging, though. It's not so much that they're not well done, but the game doesn't really have the level of granularity to make them especially interesting (i.e. you only control squads/teams/sections in a very general kind of way, and you don't have a lot of input into, say, specific methods of assaulting or engaging targets by individual weapons) - and then there's the fact that artillery (both on-map and off-map) will absolutely decimate unsupported infantry.

The whole point of infantry in the game is to be part of that "rock-paper-scissors" formula of combined arms warfare, where they're perhaps the paper (rock being armor, scissors being the artillery/air support). They're interesting when thrown into that mix, less so on their own.

If you've played the old Combat Mission titles (Beyond Overlord/Barbarossa to Berlin/Afrika Korps) - basically, infantry here is similar but slightly less detailed than in those. Infantry squads/teams are single, un-splittable units like in those titles, and you have a similar level of control over their movements, and slightly less control in terms of targeting (i.e. you can set a general ROE and maximum engagement ranges, but cannot give individual targets to units - those are for them to sort out on their own).




exsonic01 -> RE: Infantry in the game (11/3/2019 2:43:16 AM)

AB infantry mechanics are somewhat simplified, as single squad is visualized as a single unit in this game, and single squad is the minimum unit for infantry. This game does not depicts individual soldiers like CC or CM does. And like CCIP mentioned, squads are not separable.

But you still can make infantry-only combat in this game. From my experience of my games with basic database and Chechen mod games, infantry combat of AB is not that bad. But if you design the battle in wrong way, infantry combat would become very very boring. But if it is well designed, infantry combat can be an enjoyable one.

Here are several things I recommend:

1) Choose small map.
In this game, pure infantry tab bois (without taxi) are slow. Unlike Eugen's games, infantry in this game has realistic speed of human beings. You will get really bored if map is too big as all of movement actions will consume the most of the time. So please enjoy pure infantry only game in smaller map, less than 3km x 3km. You could try up to 5km x 5km, but this will make game really long.

2) Set fewer VPs, yet place it in balanced position.
I'm not sure about infantry AI of these days, because I'm not "moving" infantry that much these days. (which means, I only sue infantry in defense scenario, and I place them in ambush position or dug-in position and never moves them)
But in the past, I felt like infantry AI might be a bit more defensive (this was personal feeling, not sure if it was real). This makes AI relatively bit less reactive or bit less aggressive. But maybe this is just because infantry is slow, not because infantry AI's issue...
So, anyway, place VP in a location where AI will get more advantage or AI will feel 'easy' to proceed. This will make your game more challenging, and prevent piecemeal attack of AI. Using small number of VP makes sense with #1, because map is small anyway.

3) Infantry is hard to find. Use a lot of fire power (=artillery) and recon.
In the past, infantry combat in this game was like hide-and-seek or fighting against ghosts. AI unit in 'hide' will never found unless your unit moves to that particular tile. And previously, muzzle flash / gun sound signatures are too small, that it was really hard to detect and recognize enemy unit even they were firing. This was one of the main reason of too slow game. Plus, in this game you cannot use area fire. This makes the game too hard and boring to enjoy infantry game.
In current version, muzzle flash / gunsound signatures are increased for all infantry units. But still, it is still not easy to find and detect enemy units, even with thermal sights. So, use a lot of fire power and mortar, use good amount of smoke cover, and use good amount of recon to reveal enemy MG or GL or RR position.

As a result, keep in mind about those issues and design game nicely for infantry battle in balanced way. Then you would enjoy infantry battle in this game.

I really wish thermobaric rockets like TOS-1 & RPO-A (RPO is modeled in CCIP's Chechen mod, which I think is nicely modeled), and chemical artillery munitions + tactical nukes should be introduced.




RedBunny -> RE: Infantry in the game (11/3/2019 5:41:18 AM)

CCIP-subsim and exsonic01, thank you both for your thoughtful answers.

Good tips on an infantry game exsonic01, I'll keep those handy. Sounds like you speak from experience and I appreciate you sharing that experience.

And CCIP-subsim - you, the game's developers and Matrix should know that I plan on getting AB and the only reason is your Chechnya mod. I have very little interest in the cold war gone hot setting of the base game but a great deal of interest in the AB system in more historical settings like your mod. I hope and expect to see more mods like yours in the future.

Now we'll see which game I'm worse at, AB or CMANO.




DoubleDeuce -> RE: Infantry in the game (11/3/2019 7:24:34 AM)

I don't see why purely 'leg' infantry scenarios wouldn't work. Movement around the map would be slower but I think Infantry is handled well enough in the system to be fun, for those that like that kind of combat. I'm currently working on a small (company size) scenario that is predominantly infantry and it'll be interesting to see what kind of interest it generates.




TitaniumTrout -> RE: Infantry in the game (11/3/2019 3:34:11 PM)

I decided to test out a couple infantry heavy scenarios. As far as size goes, I'd concur at the 2880X2880 dimension. The Ardennes map is really great for it, some of the terrain spikes are huge.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/RB9ztnk.jpg[/image]

Overall I'm pretty pleased with how it is playing out.




nikolas93TS -> RE: Infantry in the game (11/3/2019 3:36:41 PM)

Well, there are actually few missions in game that are infantry only.




CCIP-subsim -> RE: Infantry in the game (11/4/2019 7:43:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

AB infantry mechanics are somewhat simplified, as single squad is visualized as a single unit in this game, and single squad is the minimum unit for infantry. This game does not depicts individual soldiers like CC or CM does. And like CCIP mentioned, squads are not separable.

But you still can make infantry-only combat in this game. From my experience of my games with basic database and Chechen mod games, infantry combat of AB is not that bad. But if you design the battle in wrong way, infantry combat would become very very boring. But if it is well designed, infantry combat can be an enjoyable one.

Here are several things I recommend:

1) Choose small map.
In this game, pure infantry tab bois (without taxi) are slow. Unlike Eugen's games, infantry in this game has realistic speed of human beings. You will get really bored if map is too big as all of movement actions will consume the most of the time. So please enjoy pure infantry only game in smaller map, less than 3km x 3km. You could try up to 5km x 5km, but this will make game really long.

2) Set fewer VPs, yet place it in balanced position.
I'm not sure about infantry AI of these days, because I'm not "moving" infantry that much these days. (which means, I only sue infantry in defense scenario, and I place them in ambush position or dug-in position and never moves them)
But in the past, I felt like infantry AI might be a bit more defensive (this was personal feeling, not sure if it was real). This makes AI relatively bit less reactive or bit less aggressive. But maybe this is just because infantry is slow, not because infantry AI's issue...
So, anyway, place VP in a location where AI will get more advantage or AI will feel 'easy' to proceed. This will make your game more challenging, and prevent piecemeal attack of AI. Using small number of VP makes sense with #1, because map is small anyway.

3) Infantry is hard to find. Use a lot of fire power (=artillery) and recon.
In the past, infantry combat in this game was like hide-and-seek or fighting against ghosts. AI unit in 'hide' will never found unless your unit moves to that particular tile. And previously, muzzle flash / gun sound signatures are too small, that it was really hard to detect and recognize enemy unit even they were firing. This was one of the main reason of too slow game. Plus, in this game you cannot use area fire. This makes the game too hard and boring to enjoy infantry game.
In current version, muzzle flash / gunsound signatures are increased for all infantry units. But still, it is still not easy to find and detect enemy units, even with thermal sights. So, use a lot of fire power and mortar, use good amount of smoke cover, and use good amount of recon to reveal enemy MG or GL or RR position.

As a result, keep in mind about those issues and design game nicely for infantry battle in balanced way. Then you would enjoy infantry battle in this game.

I really wish thermobaric rockets like TOS-1 & RPO-A (RPO is modeled in CCIP's Chechen mod, which I think is nicely modeled), and chemical artillery munitions + tactical nukes should be introduced.


Yeah, these are actually great suggestions! I should say - I don't mean to seem too down on infantry in AB, and I think it's very playable under the right conditions. And it is true that spotting infantry is always tricky, especially on larger maps - so artillery isn't always a solution for them.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedBunny

CCIP-subsim and exsonic01, thank you both for your thoughtful answers.

Good tips on an infantry game exsonic01, I'll keep those handy. Sounds like you speak from experience and I appreciate you sharing that experience.

And CCIP-subsim - you, the game's developers and Matrix should know that I plan on getting AB and the only reason is your Chechnya mod. I have very little interest in the cold war gone hot setting of the base game but a great deal of interest in the AB system in more historical settings like your mod. I hope and expect to see more mods like yours in the future.

Now we'll see which game I'm worse at, AB or CMANO.


And thank you [:)] You may be glad (or not!) to hear that I'm working on historical content for the upcoming CMO as well [:D]

Yeah, the Chechnya mod is almost a different ball game when it comes to infantry - and a lot of it was purposely built to get around certain limitations I saw in AB as far as representing infantry in that combat. Overall, infantry in the mod is MUCH more resilient to virtually everything, except for artillery (which is unaffected and, as far as I know, unmoddable) and certain kinds of explosive weapons. This is specifically offset in the mod by adding more ammo to most units' loadouts (compared to default AB). However, the mod is also very intentionally "unbalanced" with the two sides having some unique advantages/disadvantages (it'd be easy to dismiss the Russian infantry as being really bad - but then they also have access to those RPO launchers and Spetsnaz squads, which are pretty deadly in their own right). But I don't think there's ever anything that drastic in Cold War AB - it definitely does model the difference between the different nations' doctrines, but they're fighting on fairly close even terms overall, man for man (unless there is a big gap in training or morale).

Anyway, give it a try and see what happens! Main thing I'd be wary of is not overloading any infantry vs. infantry matchups with artillery, mortars, or other crew-served weapons. But given room and opportunity to maneuver, infantry can be interesting too.

For my own preference, too - especially without vehicles, I'd reducing infantry vulnerability a bit and increasing their ammo loadouts by a bit (both of which can be done via the DB editor) might make it even better.




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