Allies moving towards war too quickly and readily? (Full Version)

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MarshalNay -> Allies moving towards war too quickly and readily? (11/3/2019 5:28:57 PM)

I'm at the end of 1941 in my first game as Axis. I am playing a "delayed aggression" strategy in both Europe and the Pacific, with the Axis focusing on the Mideast and Africa in preparation for a spring 42 attack on Russia, including opening up another front via Persia from Iraq. Similarly I'm planning on a spring 42 opening of the Pacific campaign with a standard set of attacks on Pearl, Singapore, Phillipines, etc.

However, plans for both theaters went awry. To start with the Pacific and the US, in November 41 the US mobilization is at 82%. Though Japan did nothing provocative in that turn, US mobilization shot up to the high nineties in December (tried a few reloads, seems to always happen) and Prepared for War. To the devs: is there something hard-coded that brings the US into the war in 42, whether Pearl Harbor happens the previos turn or not? Seems buggy to me.

As for Europe and Russia, the Russian mobilization did kick up when Egypt and Iraq fell. This seems reasonable. However, it advanced a lot faster than expected. I wasn't watching it carefully, and Russia wound up fully mobilized in October 41, and declared war. The Axis was in mid-preparation for a spring war, so this leaves the whole front in a mess.

I'm not sure if these reflect bugs, or things are working as expected. If the latter, I find it highly ahistorical that either the Sovs or the Americans would declare war in these circumstances. While there was no love lost between Soviet Union and Germany, I don't see Stalin opening hostilities except in extreme circumstances. One can argue that there needs to be some mechanism for forcing Germany's hand. But by when? Personally I'd love it if the game supported an option in which Russia and Germany never come to blows, but Germany uses other strategic options like Seelowe. Perhaps Russia and Japan could fight, with Germany neutral?

Likewise, given isolationist politics in the US, entery into the war without a clear provocation (like fall of London, invasion of Canada), and missing the high moral ground that Pearl Harbor granted, seems unlikely in the extreme. Another thing: when Russia declared war on Germany/Italy, the US shrugged. Seems like this would push their mobilization back due to isolationism.

One possibility that wouldn't change Strategic Command too much: allow US and USSR to sit at 100% mobilization without entering the war. Once at 100%, it takes some event to allow them to declare war.



Xsillione -> RE: Allies moving towards war too quickly and readily? (11/3/2019 6:45:32 PM)

Considering that the USSR prepared for an attack on the Germans, German lack of units or engagement elsewhere, esp if it seems to be victorious will and should force the SU to strike first and fast.

The US is a tricky one, but the entire PH event was a way to force Japan into a bad choice, attack the US or other pacific territrories which would allow the US entry, or accept the embargo and let the Chinese campaign wither, while the US can concentrate on helping the allies directly or indirectly in Europe. So if the japans do nothing (other then succeeding well beyond what they did historically) they should join.




BillRunacre -> RE: Allies moving towards war too quickly and readily? (11/3/2019 7:18:02 PM)

Hi

There's some information on Soviet and US mobilization in the Strategy Guide, page 3 Axis Units Required in the East, and page 6 on the oil embargo. This can be accessed from a button on the top right of the screen while playing the game.

The exact timing of both countries war entrance will vary from game to game, but they are very unlikely to be much later than their historic war entrances unless you invest heavily in diplomacy, and invade fewer countries than the Axis did historically (I'm not necessarily recommending doing either of these).



Mercutio -> RE: Allies moving towards war too quickly and readily? (11/5/2019 12:41:35 AM)

Expect Russia to mobilize by around June-July 41. US around Dec 41. Maybe sooner, maybe later. If it is later, go you! Plan accordingly.



Hubert Cater -> RE: Allies moving towards war too quickly and readily? (11/5/2019 1:40:35 AM)

Just to add, as Bill mentioned the entry dates are not hard coded and are heavily relative to in game action that in the end will roughly coincide with their historical entry times (to a degree this is coincidental) unless your game play diverges from history, also as Bill mentioned, in a more passive sense.

The usual reasons it tends to coincide with their historical entry dates is due to player actions such as not leaving enough units along the German Soviet border, or by much more aggressive Axis invasions and game play than what occurred historically. The main reason for this is because the game has mobilization triggers (via scripts) that take into account these actions and ramp up either Soviet or US interest in the war. It just so happens that a lot of this Axis player action typically occurs throughout 1941 and early 1942.

Today, how the US and the USSR may have reacted to a weak German presence along its border, or an overextended German Army in either North Africa heading into the Middle East, or in the UK via a Sealion is of course debatable (because it never actually happened), but we've tried to reasonably take these types of actions into account for two main reasons. One because they arguably should be taken into account, and two, because it ensures a level of game play balance not only for games against the AI, but also more importantly for Multiplayer games as well.

That being said, if you would really like to try alternate strategies without fear or penalty of the USSR or USA reacting, it is possible to disable the relative MOBILIZATION events in game at any time while playing against the AI.

Simply go to OPTIONS->ADVANCED->SCRIPTS and review the relatively labeled MOBILIZATION events and disable them via a toggle of the check box at the end of each event label. We've tried to label them as appropriately as possible and this will help to give you the type of game you might be after without having to create a custom campaign.

Hope this helps,
Hubert



MarshalNay -> RE: Allies moving towards war too quickly and readily? (11/8/2019 7:47:10 AM)

Thanks Hubert! I didn't realize the mobs were script driven. I'll look at those scripts. Hopefully I can disable some events without tipping the balance over to the Axis.

Thanks to the respondees. This is a great discussion topic, really the two great WWII hypotheticals - what happens if Germany does not invade the Soviet Union, and what would the US do absent an overt attack on it? While rummaging around the internet I found some very good and thought-provoking content:

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-165226.html
https://nationalinterest.org/feature/what-if-hitler-never-invaded-russia-during-world-war-ii-17492
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/what-if-germany-never-invaded-soviet-union.767818/page-3




stockwellpete -> RE: Allies moving towards war too quickly and readily? (11/9/2019 5:27:29 PM)

Another interesting hypothetical to consider is what if the appeasers in Britain had prevailed and Britain had not entered the war. What would France have done? Would Germany, Italy and Japan have been a better match for the USA and Russia?



James Taylor -> RE: Allies moving towards war too quickly and readily? (11/9/2019 6:55:17 PM)

How about Germany defends in the west, not attacking Denmark, Benelux, or Norway and goes all out for the USSR, allied with Poland.



Mercutio -> RE: Allies moving towards war too quickly and readily? (11/9/2019 11:04:04 PM)

Germany would never have allied with Poland. Hitler wanted the territories he got from Chamberlain, but wanted Poland, the Ukraine, and the Caucuses as well as the Balkans. The people there were inferior in his view and he was willing for all of them to starve to death while being slave labor.

The nightmare would be if Hitler and Stalin agreed to carve up the Middle East and Balkans. Even a soft alliance like Germany with Japan, would have been a nightmare for the US and UK IMHO.



MarshalNay -> RE: Allies moving towards war too quickly and readily? (11/19/2019 6:53:41 AM)

quote:

Another interesting hypothetical to consider is what if the appeasers in Britain had prevailed and Britain had not entered the war. What would France have done? Would Germany, Italy and Japan have been a better match for the USA and Russia?


... and to continue the hypothetical, isolationists in the US align with the UK appeasers to form an Atlantic alliance that turns a blind eye to the Continent.

The reason for Hitler invading Russia that resonates most with me, despite being unrealistic to the point of being idiotic, was to force the UK to sue for peace. He felt that removing their only (post-1940) potential European ally would do so. He respected the Anglo-Saxon UK and hated the Slavic USSR because he and Nazi Germany were intoxicated with and blinded by the arrogance of racial superiority.

So the scenario in which the appeasers keep control of the UK is rather frightening. Even if Japan attacked the US, America might well have stayed out of the European war, leaving the USSR to face the Axis alone.



stockwellpete -> RE: Allies moving towards war too quickly and readily? (11/19/2019 8:08:38 AM)

Yes, Antony Beevor in his large tome on WW2 discusses Hitler's desire to "smash" the Soviet Union so that Britain would surrender. After the rapid defeat of France it seems that Hitler had completely underestimated the challenge that the Soviet Union would present him.

In terms of the British appeasers, there are two possibilities as "what-if" campaigns. Firstly, that Britain does not enter the war at all - and secondly that after the collapse of France, the Luftwaffe defeat the RAF and then Britain sues for peace rather than suffer an invasion. Both of these alternative histories would make for interesting games, I think.

Also, France had its fair share of appeasers too. "Rather Hitler than Blum" (the socialist leader) was their slogan. People like Petain and Laval, who later became important figures in the Vichy regime.



Elessar2 -> RE: Allies moving towards war too quickly and readily? (11/20/2019 12:40:51 PM)

The delay strategy almost certainly will necessitate several diplomacy chits played on both the US & USSR.



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