Japanese MTBs (Full Version)

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spence -> Japanese MTBs (11/5/2019 9:54:43 PM)

I haven't found a picture yet of any sort of Japanese MTB that shows where the reloads are kept but the in-game data base shows them of having a reload for their two torpedo tubes. During a recent replay animation I thought I saw one actual launch this second load torpedo (which is why I looked at the data base). Having been aboard a USCG 82 ftr in a moderate seaway I find it hard to imagine wrestling an 1800 odd lb torpedo into a torpedo tube but I would be interested in seeing a diagram or photo that shows where it is kept (presumably very near to the launch location).



geofflambert -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/5/2019 11:10:29 PM)

Here's a couple of models, I have no idea if they're accurate.

[image]local://upfiles/37002/AA670D75A2D148738D89CE8A4DEBA019.jpg[/image]



geofflambert -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/5/2019 11:11:02 PM)

.

[image]local://upfiles/37002/48EC2502A07541DFBE396FDF41C56E0C.jpg[/image]



spence -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 12:50:43 AM)

The second of the two pictures above could possibly be an early model of Japanese MTB although it shows no re-loads at all unless the extra torpedoes are stowed below deck. It also bears some resemblance to the grainy picture I found of some Japanese MTBs (probably a little snippet of a recon photo blown up 100 times or some such). Since there are no cranes or other lifting devices on deck it seems that only the very strongest Japanese sailors would be assigned to MTB duty[8|].

The first of the two pictures above bears no resemblance whatsoever to any of the Japanese MTBs in the game's data base. (None of them had 4 torpedo tubes and I find it doubtful that they carried a radar of any sort)



btd64 -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 12:59:50 AM)

I believe that the 1 reload that you're seeing is the only one on board. 1 rate of fire....GP



geofflambert -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 1:35:15 AM)

Here's what you get if you google Type 11 torpedo boat.

8 torpedoes? 113 crew? Big mfer

[image]local://upfiles/37002/0DDEBCAE2A2348BD987D99FA7239519A.jpg[/image]



geofflambert -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 1:37:02 AM)

The Chidori class Wiki says 4 TTs.

The Otori class is listed with 3 tubes and 3 torpedoes.



geofflambert -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 1:41:08 AM)

Here's an Otori

[image]local://upfiles/37002/84CEA20D5FBA44C0AD76B0397B51FE8A.jpg[/image]



geofflambert -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 1:49:43 AM)

OT sorta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfRq_ET5ykY



spence -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 1:55:56 AM)

Sure looks like the ammo is 2 indicating a reload.



[image]local://upfiles/9007/1492DB3C632B42CFA15B58D2BC1B941A.jpg[/image]



spence -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 2:09:13 AM)

The MTBs that attacked my ships were PT boat sized; definitely nothing that had a significant gun such as an Otori. One of them appeared to fire torpedoes twice during the same combat (no hits anyways). Japanese DDs show 2 under the AMMO column whereas US DDs show 1 in the AMMO column (regardless of whatever they show in the MOUNT column [what is this anyways?].

BTW the PT Boat Museum is co-located with the BB USS Massachusetts, a late war DD, a fleet sub from WW2, and a KOMAR missile boat from the now defunct East Germany in Battleship Cove, Fall River, MA. It's a great museum for the ships there. (Since I went there at least 10 yrs ago it might have more ships).



Alfred -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 3:04:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Sure looks like the ammo is 2 indicating a reload.



[image]local://upfiles/9007/1492DB3C632B42CFA15B58D2BC1B941A.jpg[/image]


That does not say there is a reload.

There are 2 tubes in the mount. Because the mount has 2 torpedoes, each tube has a torpedo.

Alfred



spence -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 3:29:29 AM)

quote:

That does not say there is a reload.

There are 2 tubes in the mount. Because the mount has 2 torpedoes, each tube has a torpedo.

Alfred


Very often your responses clear things up but in this case I find a problem.

The DD HIJMS Kagero has 8 tubes, 4 mounts and 2 for ammo in its initial configuration (1941) but in its last configuration (some time in 1944) it has 8 tubes, 4 mounts and 1 for ammo. (I would imagine the increase in AAA came at the cost of the space for torpedo reloads).

What do # MOUNTS and AMMO # mean?



Buckrock -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 8:24:49 AM)

The number under "Mount" (which is (4) for Kagero) tells you how the particular devices listed (8 torpedoes in this case) are grouped. So the Kagero has 8 Type 93 torpedoes and they are grouped by fours or in other words, in quadruple mounts. And as I understand it, "Ammo" usage is always assumed to involve total weapons listed (on a line) "firing" each time, ie it does not track ammo by individual mounts.



spence -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 1:48:58 PM)

quote:

The number under "Mount" (which is (4) for Kagero) tells you how the particular devices listed (8 torpedoes in this case) are grouped.


This agrees with my understanding of the number under MOUNT, and the in-game data base with the apparent exception of Japanese MTBs. Kagero's have 4 torpedoes/mount. USN PTs have 4 torpedoes in single mounts.

The number 2 under ammo clearly implies that these tiny ships have a reload for thir torpedoes which:
a)does not agree with any of the photos of Japanese MTB that I have found on the web (mostly but not exclusively waterline shots which do not show the deck arrangement)
b) is clearly impossible for a relatively small crew with nt mechanical help (also nothing apparent in any photo) to accomplish on such a small ship



[image]local://upfiles/9007/69CE2E3CF1EA410FA886A0218F9306A1.jpg[/image]



jagsdomain -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 4:23:34 PM)

Did IJN have PT boats? I know at the end they had anything that would float but was not a were of boats like this...



jagsdomain -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 4:27:25 PM)

The inside of the Mass has a lot great modles as well in it. It is a great place the town...well the towns modle is "well try" that qute a thing to say.
Dont forget to see the Luzzy Bordens house. Its a B and B now.



Big B -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 4:30:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Sure looks like the ammo is 2 indicating a reload.



[image]local://upfiles/9007/1492DB3C632B42CFA15B58D2BC1B941A.jpg[/image]



This clearly shows this vessel has torpedo reloads - which is inaccurate. Japanese MTB's carried no reloads.

The field Ammo shows 2, that means reloads.... it will fire twice.
This is why Japanese cruisers and destroyers carry a torpedo ammo factor of 2, while their allied counterparts do not - their ammo load is 1.

To quote directly from the Editor Manual below:



[image]local://upfiles/16855/EDC38FD754E34B198A563CA98F70DB70.jpg[/image]



inqistor -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/6/2019 8:59:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

The first of the two pictures above bears no resemblance whatsoever to any of the Japanese MTBs in the game's data base. (None of them had 4 torpedo tubes and I find it doubtful that they carried a radar of any sort)

As war progressed, Everybody and their uncle carried radar. According to post-war report about Japanese electronics warfare, radars were frequently installed by initiative of repair crew, during vessel maintenance. Most of it was actually some local modification using wire, and some wooden filling, including chair.



John 3rd -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/7/2019 12:03:49 AM)

Thank You Brian. I was about to comment and say that but you got in ahead of me. Clearly a reload for the Torps.




spence -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/7/2019 12:11:37 AM)

quote:

As war progressed, Everybody and their uncle carried radar. According to post-war report about Japanese electronics warfare, radars were frequently installed by initiative of repair crew, during vessel maintenance. Most of it was actually some local modification using wire, and some wooden filling, including chair.


Regardless of whether or not Japanese MTBs carried radar of any sort or not, NONE of the ones in the in-game data base have 4 torpedo tubes. The boat in picture #1 is either some designers wet dream or a post war MTB (perhaps produced in Japan) assigned to the JDF.

The first 3 in the data base all have 2 tubes with 45cm torpedoes and ammo set to 2. The last in the data base has 1 tube with a single 63cm torpedo and ammo set to 1.







GI Jive -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/7/2019 4:08:32 PM)

quote:

The boat in picture #1 is either some designers wet dream or a post war MTB (perhaps produced in Japan) assigned to the JDF.


PT-15 was a post war boat. It was commissioned in 1975. https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10041916/80/1



I don't think the WW2 Japanese Type T-51 MTBs should have a reload. The database is in error. I believe spence is correct. Here is info about the T-51: http://www.ptboatworld.com/PT_Boat_Info/JapaneseMTBs.htm (which states "The boats were armed with three 25mm cannons and two 45.7cm torpedoes." emphasis added) and http://www.navypedia.org/ships/japan/jap_aux_t51.htm .



rustysi -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/7/2019 7:06:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Here's what you get if you google Type 11 torpedo boat.

8 torpedoes? 113 crew? Big mfer

[image]local://upfiles/37002/0DDEBCAE2A2348BD987D99FA7239519A.jpg[/image]



This is decidedly what would pass as a WWI torpedo boat, not a MTB, or PT. Look at the stats... 544 tons, 269'.



Buckrock -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/8/2019 4:29:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence
Regardless of whether or not Japanese MTBs carried radar of any sort or not, NONE of the ones in the in-game data base have 4 torpedo tubes. The boat in picture #1 is either some designers wet dream or a post war MTB (perhaps produced in Japan) assigned to the JDF.

The first 3 in the data base all have 2 tubes with 45cm torpedoes and ammo set to 2. The last in the data base has 1 tube with a single 63cm torpedo and ammo set to 1.

Given the stock database probably aint going to change anytime soon, there's always the editor to use as a fix for something that appears to just be an error.



Dili -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/8/2019 12:06:26 PM)

Yes it appears to be an error, but there are many the database, from too generous range of some Japanese destroyers , from many allied support ships that arrive to early AE Mauna Loa for example. AK and AP's



Trugrit -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/8/2019 12:43:46 PM)


I would not change it in the editor. Maybe a game design decision.

The designers may have added a little more firepower to balance the game some in late war.
This would make one boat the firepower equivalent of two boats.
That is a reasonable compromise in this type game.

Remember that the boat numbers were scaled way down in the game:

“During World War II, Japan built two hundred forty eight MTBs in fifteen different classes.”

“Of the Type T-51 boats, only nine were completed before the war's end, and another two hulls were left unfinished at war's end.
The Type T-51boats were deemed to be unsuccessful and relegated to being used as what the Japanese referred
to as "Guard Boats" and had two of their four engines removed.”

http://www.ptboatworld.com/PT_Boat_Info/JapaneseMTBs.htm

You have a good game as designed and I would not screw with it.

I would say; don’t try to drive this game towards a simulation, you may screw up the fun factor.

Just my two cents.





gmtello -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/8/2019 8:22:18 PM)

What is the best use for mtg or mtb boats? Try to difficult landings or crosses. Any other use?



BBfanboy -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/8/2019 9:40:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gmtello

What is the best use for mtg or mtb boats? Try to difficult landings or crosses. Any other use?

Disrupting landings (and maybe causing collisions) is their best use. Causing bombardment TFs to use ammo and ops points is the second most useful thing, but you tend to lose some or all of your PTs that way.
IRL they were often used as barge busters, and their crews added 37mm AT guns or 40MM Bofors to their foredeck to outrange the MGs on the barges.
Of course since "Patrol" is part of the boat classification, they can be used to gain info on enemy movements, minefield locations or even weather at an enemy hex you want to attack by air.
Although they carry depth charges, I haven't seen any have success against a sub since McHale's boat torpedoed one on TV.

[image]local://upfiles/35791/6D63638C875947A091F083E051CAB8BF.gif[/image]



Alpha77 -> RE: Japanese MTBs (11/11/2019 11:32:21 AM)

geofflambert: The Tomozuru (and Otoris) were (without looking it up from memory) post WW1 small destroyers. As most nations went with bigger fleet DDs (with the French and Japanese in the lead) those old "DDs" were re-classified as torpedo boats. In 42 + 43 however their class would again change to "escort" losing a 12cm gun for some more 25mm AA and 4 DC racks, quite usefull ships in that role.

spence: Nice find, I was recently looking up stats of these IJN boats and this detail escaped me. The variants with 45cm torp indeed show a reload. The bigger ones with 65cm not. Problem I see here compared to Allied PTs (which are super annoying and one of their "secret waepons" imho) they have not many guns and the range of the 45cm torp is dismal (2k).

Btw. these ships are also in the shipyard build - when they are ready built will they go to the pool or will they appear like any other ship ready built? I cannot wait for building starting even if only 50% as good as the Allied counterparts...[8|]

I assume the boats that have 6 x old T95 DCs are perhaps good for harbour safety? Has anyone had any success with these? I mean 6 of these outdated DCs will not do anything to Allied subs I guess.



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