Out of supply? No way!! (Full Version)

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seich_23 -> Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 7:22:01 AM)

This is Jan 20, 1942My opponent shock attacked out of Moulmein towards Pegu, and I got a negative supply modifier. I checked and my troops all had supply that turn.

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Ground combat at 56,54 (near Moulmein)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 22765 troops, 246 guns, 90 vehicles, Assault Value = 762

Defending force 11379 troops, 128 guns, 84 vehicles, Assault Value = 368

Japanese adjusted assault: 209

Allied adjusted defense: 339

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-), fatigue(-)

Japanese ground losses:
1208 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 98 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Guns lost 7 (1 destroyed, 6 disabled)
Vehicles lost 65 (11 destroyed, 54 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1142 casualties reported
Squads: 11 destroyed, 148 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 5 disabled
Guns lost 12 (1 destroyed, 11 disabled)
Vehicles lost 30 (2 destroyed, 28 disabled)

Assaulting units:
14th Tank Regiment
III./143rd Infantry Battalion
1st RTA Division
55th Engineer Regiment
55th Cavalry Regiment
2nd RTA Division
112th Infantry Regiment
15th Guards Regiment
17th Indpt Guards Regiment
55th Mountain Gun Regiment
21st Medium Field Artillery Battalion

Defending units:
1st Burma Division
B Sqn 3rd Hussars Regiment
3rd Burma Rifles Battalion
Rangoon BAF Battalion
17th Indian/A Division
17th Indian/C Division


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And in the operational report I got this message:

3rd Burma Rifles Battalion isolated with no supply!
B Sqn 3rd Hussars Regiment isolated with no supply!


Isolated? i got troops in Pegu, and in the hex east of Pegu. I don't have the turn back, but this bothers me.

Supply is not superb in burma but is more than decent in general (10k at Rangoon)

Any ideas of why the supply problems?

Thanks



Alfred -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 8:00:15 AM)

As your heading has already determined that there is "No way!!" you have out of supply issues, I don't see how us mere mortals can provide any meaningful comments.

Just for my benefit, as I obviously don't know as much about the game as you do, could you please explain the relevance of your observations.

(a) having 10k supply at Rangoon
(b) having troops in Pegu
(c) having troops in the hex east of Pegu

Also how do you reconcile your perfect knowledge of your troops all having supply with the obviously erroneous computer calculation that two of your units have none.  With your knowledge you should rewrite the chapter in the manual which deals with logistics.  We would all benefit.

Alfred 



seich_23 -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 8:07:58 AM)

Sorry for posting, it won't happen again.



HansBolter -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 8:55:24 AM)

No need to over react to Alfred's dry response.

The point he was making is that hyperbole, coupled with a lack of knowledge of the game engine, won't likely net you any constructive responses.

The only times you can 'check' the supply your troops and bases have is before and after the turn is executed.

Many things happen during the turn to effect supply and there is no way you can be absolutely certain of the supply status of any given unit at the start of the land combat phase.

10k is far from 'decent' supply for a base the size of Rangoon. 20k is the minimum threshold for many things in the game such as being able to receive aircraft replacements from the pools. 50k would likely be a decent supply level for Rangoon in the early game, but what is a decent level is completely relative to what you have operating out of it and how large an army you have in the hexes nearby that would be drawing supply from it.



seich_23 -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 8:57:36 AM)





quote:

(a) having 10k supply at Rangoon


The original idea of the post was trying to figure out why the "supply (-)" in the combat report, so I was trying to give more details on the general supply situation in the area.

quote:

(b) having troops in Pegu
(c) having troops in the hex east of Pegu



The operational report indicates that the troops are isolated, I wrote that to put the situation into context. I'm at work and don't have the game right now to post pics of the area.

quote:

Also how do you reconcile your perfect knowledge of your troops all having supply with the obviously erroneous computer calculation that two of your units have none.  With your knowledge you should rewrite the chapter in the manual which deals with logistics.  We would all benefit.


But yes, my troops had supply before I sent the turn back to my opponent, so I'm trying to figure out what just happened for the (-)supply.

quote:


As your heading has already determined that there is "No way!!" you have out of supply issues, I don't see how us mere mortals can provide any meaningful comments.

Just for my benefit, as I obviously don't know as much about the game as you do, could you please explain the relevance of your observations.



Maybe its a stupid post, but I think it's not necessary trying to humiliate someone who has less knowledge than you do. Just as a general human rule.





seich_23 -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 9:16:51 AM)

Thanks Hans, that's a useful reply.

My troops where not bombed by sea or air before the attack, any other reason for losing supply inside the units?



Trugrit -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 10:51:10 AM)


You may have supply but your supply level probably fell below the level the game checks for
in combat and by chance your firepower was reduced.

Don’t be discouraged by Alfred. He is blunt.

You are not considered a true and tested player of this game until you have been dressed down by Alfred at least once.

Consider it a right of passage.

Manual:


[image]local://upfiles/49386/DD2C9365FAFA4611B90E799DC41C0FF2.jpg[/image]



HansBolter -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 11:06:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: seich_23

Thanks Hans, that's a useful reply.

My troops where not bombed by sea or air before the attack, any other reason for losing supply inside the units?



Units consume supply just to subsist. Food and water gets used up every day.

Isolated units cannot draw supply during the turn to replenish what is being used.

This is what likely caused them to fall below the threshold Trugrit mentions above.



Disco Duck -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 11:30:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: seich_23





quote:

(a) having 10k supply at Rangoon


The original idea of the post was trying to figure out why the "supply (-)" in the combat report, so I was trying to give more details on the general supply situation in the area.

quote:

(b) having troops in Pegu
(c) having troops in the hex east of Pegu



The operational report indicates that the troops are isolated, I wrote that to put the situation into context. I'm at work and don't have the game right now to post pics of the area.

quote:

Also how do you reconcile your perfect knowledge of your troops all having supply with the obviously erroneous computer calculation that two of your units have none.  With your knowledge you should rewrite the chapter in the manual which deals with logistics.  We would all benefit.


But yes, my troops had supply before I sent the turn back to my opponent, so I'm trying to figure out what just happened for the (-)supply.

quote:


As your heading has already determined that there is "No way!!" you have out of supply issues, I don't see how us mere mortals can provide any meaningful comments.

Just for my benefit, as I obviously don't know as much about the game as you do, could you please explain the relevance of your observations.



Maybe its a stupid post, but I think it's not necessary trying to humiliate someone who has less knowledge than you do. Just as a general human rule.






I wasn't really happy with Alfreds post. We don't have enough players as it is.



BBfanboy -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 12:00:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: seich_23

Thanks Hans, that's a useful reply.

My troops where not bombed by sea or air before the attack, any other reason for losing supply inside the units?



Units consume supply just to subsist. Food and water gets used up every day.

Isolated units cannot draw supply during the turn to replenish what is being used.

This is what likely caused them to fall below the threshold Trugrit mentions above.

Be aware that supply levels for a unit are based on recent usage. If the unit has not been in combat, the supply level for the troops will be too low for a major attack, which expends exponentially more supply.

New supply arrives at the end of the turn, after all combats, so it is possible the units showing enough supply now did not have enough during combat.

Determining the isolation of troops would require before and after screenshots of the area with the "W" key pressed to highlight Who owns each hexside. Your supply path (and retreat path) for your troops could have been cut by enemy troops moving into the path or closing a hex side by crossing it. You may not have enough detection on these enemy troops for their icon to show up on your map.



ITAKLinus -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 12:18:12 PM)

I just highlight from previous answers that 10k in Rangoon is way too little to make your efforts sustainable.

Ideally, you want at least 20-30k if the base is not gonna fall very soon. If you plan a major strategical pivot in Burma, then there is no "enough" for supplies.
It's difficoult to supply Rangoon because of its geographical position: indeed, you are quite exposed to naval and aerial strikes made by the Japs.

However, it can be worthy to develop the relatively more protected Ramree Island. Also, massive airlifts are an old classic of any Burmese action.


Also, you have the 17th Indian DIV which has been formed in the past. Now it's divided into A/B/C. Don't do that: divisions fight much better when united. Send that "17th Indian/B Division" there and merge it with the others.
Your enemy doesn't know, or doesn't give a f@@k of that and he's doomed to get less efficiency from his forces.


I also add that defending the hex you are defending is a very poor move from my perspective. The enemy can move via Chiang Mai flanking you. And, especially, just land in Pegu which is clear terrain, coastal and right between you and his main target for the opening in Burma: Rangoon (which is also your logistical hub).
Personally, I tend to avoid any strong position where you are because it can be easily turn into an infernal trap for your poor guys.
Last but not least, from Chiang Mai the Jap can only move in offroad, but the base is a rail terminal, therefore enabling him to send quite a big amount of stuff easily and suddenly. It's quite nasty to set a defence where you are just to have everybody flanked and encircled and massacred.




Regarding the (-) sign over supplies. I think other have given you the best possible anwers to address the problem, so I have little to add.



GetAssista -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 12:23:22 PM)

Rangoon supply numbers do not mean this supply is available outside of Rangoon. Base will not ship supply out until it satisfies its own need.

I still remember how this bit me when I was in the process of conquering CONUS from the AI. Every shore city demanded 90k+ supply and my units in the countryside were at the brink of starvation



ITAKLinus -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 12:34:40 PM)

Yeah I know the problem...


I think I expressed myself poorly: I meant that 10k in Rangoon is totally insufficient and he should try to flood it with supplies if he wants to keep Burma. While my estimation for 30k circa was for just the usual delaying stand in Rangoon itself if he decides not to defend Burma, so that the city has enough supplies to resist for a while.


Thanks for clarifying to everyone!



seich_23 -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 1:03:12 PM)

Thanks for all the replays.



quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Be aware that supply levels for a unit are based on recent usage. If the unit has not been in combat, the supply level for the troops will be too low for a major attack, which expends exponentially more supply.



This can be an explanation and might be what happened. I will try to post a pic with the (w) hex details, but no enemy was east or north of the contested hex at the begining of the turn.



seich_23 -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 1:29:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

Also, you have the 17th Indian DIV which has been formed in the past. Now it's divided into A/B/C. Don't do that: divisions fight much better when united. Send that "17th Indian/B Division" there and merge it with the others.
Your enemy doesn't know, or doesn't give a f@@k of that and he's doomed to get less efficiency from his forces.


Rangoon has a garrison requirement of 120 I think, so someone have to be there.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus
I also add that defending the hex you are defending is a very poor move from my perspective. The enemy can move via Chiang Mai flanking you. And, especially, just land in Pegu which is clear terrain, coastal and right between you and his main target for the opening in Burma: Rangoon (which is also your logistical hub).
Personally, I tend to avoid any strong position where you are because it can be easily turn into an infernal trap for your poor guys.
Last but not least, from Chiang Mai the Jap can only move in offroad, but the base is a rail terminal, therefore enabling him to send quite a big amount of stuff easily and suddenly. It's quite nasty to set a defence where you are just to have everybody flanked and encircled and massacred.



Well, mistakes were made and more to come, this is my first try as allies so I'm willing to make them.

4th RTA has been west of Chiang Mai for a while, but I got 3 small units guarding the flank across the river, plus the contextet hex is just a hex away of Pegu, so I think I can go back to Pegu if those troops start moving.

We'll see how it ends, probably not good.[:D]



ETF -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 2:19:40 PM)

Come on Alfred not cool man. You are way better than that. Thanks for sharing everyone learned alot on the posting.



ITAKLinus -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 3:05:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: seich_23


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

Also, you have the 17th Indian DIV which has been formed in the past. Now it's divided into A/B/C. Don't do that: divisions fight much better when united. Send that "17th Indian/B Division" there and merge it with the others.
Your enemy doesn't know, or doesn't give a f@@k of that and he's doomed to get less efficiency from his forces.


Rangoon has a garrison requirement of 120 I think, so someone have to be there.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus
I also add that defending the hex you are defending is a very poor move from my perspective. The enemy can move via Chiang Mai flanking you. And, especially, just land in Pegu which is clear terrain, coastal and right between you and his main target for the opening in Burma: Rangoon (which is also your logistical hub).
Personally, I tend to avoid any strong position where you are because it can be easily turn into an infernal trap for your poor guys.
Last but not least, from Chiang Mai the Jap can only move in offroad, but the base is a rail terminal, therefore enabling him to send quite a big amount of stuff easily and suddenly. It's quite nasty to set a defence where you are just to have everybody flanked and encircled and massacred.



Well, mistakes were made and more to come, this is my first try as allies so I'm willing to make them.

4th RTA has been west of Chiang Mai for a while, but I got 3 small units guarding the flank across the river, plus the contextet hex is just a hex away of Pegu, so I think I can go back to Pegu if those troops start moving.

We'll see how it ends, probably not good.[:D]





120AV are NOTHING.



BBfanboy -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 6:00:29 PM)

About the garrison requirement at Rangoon:
- once you decide you cannot hold Rangoon it is best to abandon Rangoon before the enemy enters the hex.
- partisans will begin wrecking the base facilities so the Japanese will not be able to use it right away
- you lose one VP per turn until the Japanese take it but you probably save more VPs in LCU devices not destroyed defending a hopeless cause.



witpqs -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/28/2019 11:11:19 PM)

Not sure if someone else posted this.

Any of the modifiers shown in the combat report like supply(-) apply to one or more units. We never get told the detail. That modifier might have applied to only one of the units.



Chickenboy -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/29/2019 5:48:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: seich_23

Sorry for posting, it won't happen again.


Seich_23, don't take Alfred's unnecessarily sarcastic response personally. He's had an unfortunate history of late in responding to questions in this brusque and unreasonable manner. Please continue to post here, as there are many others (see below) that are more willing to help with your questions.



durnedwolf -> RE: Out of supply? No way!! (11/29/2019 6:48:59 PM)

Oh!

I'm below. I'm an ex-spurt (which means I'm an old drip).

I can give you really-really good old-drip answers.

[sm=sign0066.gif]




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