Come on Back, Jack

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DD696 -> Come on Back, Jack (11/29/2019 8:53:18 PM)
I know you're thinking that the song is "Hit the road, Jack, and don't come back no more, no more, no more, no more" due to recent events. But the truth is that we need all the crotchety old SOB's like you and I to keep prodding Slitherine until they get off their dithering, dusty and ponderous British asses and do something. How about it? Help us out here. Please. Place the barbs in the direction most needed.

Zovs -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (11/30/2019 3:03:38 AM)
I think this sounds like a Gyrine love song! LOL Just pulling your chain Marine! (In the Army we always said to the Jarheads, you guys go ahead first and will come in and clean up after ya all)... ;-)

DD696 -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (11/30/2019 8:46:31 PM)
Us Jarheads are always happy to serve the underprivileged (those who are not one of The Proud, The Few, The Marines). We find it soothing to be able to clear out those who oppose us and provide the opportunity for the Dogfaces, Swabbies, and the Airbabies to be able to come in set up their sewing circles and quilting bees.[:)] Thanks for serving. Seems so few of us consider it an honor.

Zovs -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/1/2019 3:30:59 AM)
Thanks for your service Gunny! I like the log cabin pattern ... lol

cathar1244 -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/1/2019 7:20:57 AM)
Regarding the way forward for TOAW, I think you nailed it earlier. The lack of communication from "higher" is deadly. Even a regular, twice a year statement would be great. It need be nothing fancy or detailed. As it is, we hear mention of beta versions. Nothing wrong with that, but those mentions lack context. I suppose they can be interpreted to mean that another patch will emerge at some point. Or perhaps not. I can understand a lack of resources to produce regular updates. The lack of communication is harder to understand. Cheers

Lobster -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/1/2019 7:09:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cathar1244 I can understand a lack of resources to produce regular updates. The lack of communication is harder to understand. Cheers Testers are not allowed to post anything due to NDA. Otherwise you would know everything the testers know, or at least those of us who still bother with checking in. I envy the games that have development teams who do regular public updates about what is going on. As for a patch. The upcoming holidays typically mean Europe shuts down, or so it seems. And that's where the patch originates. So you know as much as we do now about any upcoming patch. (I didn't violate the NDA I don't think. [:D]) BTW, come on back from where? I don't recall being on holiday. [&:] Do you really think a handful of bullys run roughshod over this forum? The LeMay vs Collin threads were much more entertaining.

DD696 -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/1/2019 7:58:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lobster quote: ORIGINAL: cathar1244 I can understand a lack of resources to produce regular updates. The lack of communication is harder to understand. Cheers Testers are not allowed to post anything due to NDA. Otherwise you would know everything the testers know, or at least those of us who still bother with checking in. I envy the games that have development teams who do regular public updates about what is going on. As for a patch. The upcoming holidays typically mean Europe shuts down, or so it seems. And that's where the patch originates. So you know as much as we do now about any upcoming patch. (I didn't violate the NDA I don't think. [:D]) BTW, come on back from where? I don't recall being on holiday. [&:] Do you really think a handful of bullys run roughshod over this forum? The LeMay vs Collin threads were much more entertaining. I guess I have to apologize once more. I will never request that you come back ever again.

Lobster -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/2/2019 2:09:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DD696 quote: ORIGINAL: Lobster quote: ORIGINAL: cathar1244 I can understand a lack of resources to produce regular updates. The lack of communication is harder to understand. Cheers Testers are not allowed to post anything due to NDA. Otherwise you would know everything the testers know, or at least those of us who still bother with checking in. I envy the games that have development teams who do regular public updates about what is going on. As for a patch. The upcoming holidays typically mean Europe shuts down, or so it seems. And that's where the patch originates. So you know as much as we do now about any upcoming patch. (I didn't violate the NDA I don't think. [:D]) BTW, come on back from where? I don't recall being on holiday. [&:] Do you really think a handful of bullys run roughshod over this forum? The LeMay vs Collin threads were much more entertaining. I guess I have to apologize once more. I will never request that you come back ever again. Again, I never left. Thanksgiving took up all of my time.

cathar1244 -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/2/2019 4:34:56 PM)
quote: Testers are not allowed to post anything due to NDA. Otherwise you would know everything the testers know, or at least those of us who still bother with checking in. I envy the games that have development teams who do regular public updates about what is going on. Hi Lobster, Oh, I understand NDA and all that. When I mention "regular communication", I mean something more generic like this. "Update 1 of 2 for 2020. No plans currently to work on a TOAW V. Bugs identified in TOAW IV (see list below) will be addressed in a patch planned to be released in the final quarter of the year. List of Bugs: 1 ... 2 ..." Nothing more specific that that. That is what I mean when I write I don't understand the lack of communication. Even the most basic information is not being put out, although by bits and pieces we understand there is an upcoming patch. Don't misunderstand me. I'm happy a patch is coming out. I just don't understand why the communication of basic information like that is apparently missing in action. Thank you for your reply. Cheers

Lobster -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/2/2019 5:22:24 PM)
It would be great if they assigned an individual to post updates and a bug list from time to time. There are some bugs that need to remain undisclosed because they are exploits which can ruin the game but there are others that should be made public. Even a news blurb on upcoming features so players become at least a little more excited about the game. What would also be nice are hot patches to take care of glaring problems like the one with interdiction that pose a problem for some basic game play. I'm still wondering why that one has been allowed to remain. Perhaps a leadership problem? Don't know and can only speculate. I'm hoping the replacement for Tamas will effect a change in attitude about the player base so everyone is made more aware of what is going on behind the scenes. I want to add, Bob is doing some really neat stuff with the hierarchy module that will add to the depth of the game. I wish he would post his progress but I can understand why he might not want to do that.

76mm -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/2/2019 6:53:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lobster I'm hoping the replacement for Tamas will effect a change in attitude about the player base so everyone is made more aware of what is going on behind the scenes. Not to dash your hopes or anything, but the fact that the mysterious Bart has not even bothered to make an appearance here gives little expectation of any positive change of attitude. Really baffling why they seem so determined to drive this classic franchise into the ground by chronic neglect.

DD696 -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/2/2019 7:08:20 PM)
There's probably an easy answer. They already have your money. They like to issue games now with "DLC's" in order to pick your pockets as time goes by. This game is so versatile that they may just view it as a threat to future income. It would make better business sense for them to issue the next patch as TOAW V and brand it as the latest and greatest version in the franchise. Edited for spelling and a missing word....

DD696 -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/2/2019 7:34:44 PM)
Just for the record: I can't say that I have seen any TOAW bashing going on, contrary to the belief of others, but I have seen a lot of bashing for the level of support this game is getting - which is virtually nothing. Even in the Tech Support forum, if a problem is addressed it is done so mostly by paying customers and sometimes by play testers. Posting in the Tech Support forum will not get you an answer from anyone capable of technical support of this game. The official record of this game says no bugs/issues have been addressed. The official record of this game says that no bugs/issues are contemplated being fixed/addressed. The official record of this forum says absolutely nothing. Every now and again a play tester slips up and says something is going on. But, as every paying customer knows, every time we buy a game we are the play testers. There are the alpha testes, the beta testers, and the concerned testers, which are those who bought the game.

Lobster -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/2/2019 8:04:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DD696 There's probably an easy answer. They already have your money. They like to issue games now with "DLC's" in order to pick your pockets as time goes by. This game is so versatile that they may just view it as a threat to future income. It would make better business sense for them to issue the next patch as TOAW V and brand it as the latest and greatest version in the franchise. Edited for spelling and a missing word.... That is exactly what they did with TOAWIII. There was supposed to be a 3.5 version that was a free expansion with no new graphics and a handful of new features. Then Ralph goes MIA for I don't know how many years. He comes back and it's TOAWIV. Unless something changes the way it is and has been is the way it will be. Patches maybe once a year unless Bob has new features that are ready to go. Now for speculation. Once the number of new features hit some mark it will become TOAWV. I doubt I'll live to see it. Things just don't happen that fast with this game but I do like it so here I am since 1998. [:D]

DD696 -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/2/2019 8:14:45 PM)
There is light in this world. Lobster and I agree on something!!! If you ever get down this way I'll buy you a rum and diet coke and take you for a ride in a classic corvette.

John T_MatrixForum -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/2/2019 9:49:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DD696 There's probably an easy answer. They already have your money. They like to issue games now with "DLC's" in order to pick your pockets as time goes by. This game is so versatile that they may just view it as a threat to future income. It would make better business sense for them to issue the next patch as TOAW V and brand it as the latest and greatest version in the franchise. Edited for spelling and a missing word.... Come on, what money ?? methinks everyone doing something serious for this game does it for free. and done so for the last ten years. A software developers going rate is a couple of TOAW IV per hour today - So if you spend a day fixing TOAW IV - Do you think there are 16 new customers who will show up? (disregarding Matrix costs) Or would you just work 8 hours at an ordinary job and get paid? One should retire and then develop the game as a hobby, only way I see it makes sense. Cheers

demyansk -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/2/2019 11:30:18 PM)
By the way, how many games do they sell? Just curious, this looks like a tough business to me with the amount of time it takes to develop a product. I would figure $30-40 hour to make a living each person working on a title?

DD696 -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/3/2019 11:27:26 AM)
They keep sales figures a tightly guarded secret. They do typically skim 50% off the top of any game they sell (they must have learned that from Colonel Tom Parker), so the development team only receives half of the sales price. Game developers such as Grisby and company typically support games for many years after release. War in the East and War in the West still receive very good support both verbally and thru patches. War in the East was handed off to a programmer other than 2x3 but the support is great. The same thing was done with War in the Pacific AE. I am too lazy to look up when WITE and WITW were released. This is how a good businessman/company supports his products. Compare that to the lack of support for this game which was released just over two years ago. The tendency is to blame Slitherine, however the lack of support lies directly with the development team. The development team for this game simply does not communicate. Bob Cross pops in now and again to give assistance with some game questions, but does not involve himself addressing patch issues. As I stated in another thread, the lead programmer, Ralph Trickey, last made a comment in this forum last February. As far as this new "Bart" goes, he is said to be the intermediary between the development team and Slitherine, supposedly beginning this new position in mid October.

76mm -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/3/2019 12:52:46 PM)
Actually most of the games I've bought from Matrix provide excellent communication & support, including the Campaign series, FOG2, CMANO, Desert War, Flashpoint, and WitE. Even Empires in Arms, which was abandoned (or something) by its developer and which is now supported by a volunteer player, has put out a handful of status updates and patches over the last year or so. I really can't ask for more from any of these teams, other than that they would put out new games much faster! TOAW is the sole outlier, I have no idea why...

Lobster -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/3/2019 2:16:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 76mm TOAW is the sole outlier, I have no idea why... I know I know (wildly waving his hand in the air) ask me ask me! It's Ralph's fault. /Wall Of Words Begin [:D] At one time he was all up for this game. Even had a blog for it. Now it's a part time 'job' (I use the term loosely) /speculation ensues that seems to be far down his priority list. Why he doesn't just hand it off to someone who might have more desire to do justice as the game's developer I don't know. Maybe he makes enough off it to want to hold on. /end speculation So if past history of TOAWIV is anything to go by nothing is going to change. Ever. Bob does the best he can with what he has to work with. Bugs fixes don't get distributed without going through Ralph and then Matrix. Some people want to get rid of Bob and replace him with some unknown imaginary person because they feel Bob is just doing stuff for Bob. However, there is a plan for advancing the game and from what I understand that plan was developed with the help of the community at some time in the past. So if Bob is following that plan, and he is, then how can the people who helped come up with the plan be unhappy with it? Not long ago I asked Tamas if the sequence of how the plan was laid out could be changed for very logical reasons and he politely said no (he is much more diplomatic than I [:D]). So, like I said, nothing will change. Instead of filling this forum with the same things maybe send Erik Rutkins some PMs and rag on him about bug fixes? Especially hot fixes for things that clearly impact the game in a negative way. Or Bart, who probably won't do anything since he is just a temp fill in. I've seen some people say he hasn't shown up here and said anything. How would you like to show up in this forum as the temp project manager knowing you will get thoroughly dumped on. I know I would stay away because the hostility towards management is not recent. I know because I've been part of it since Ralph vanished at 3.5 and didn't surface again for years. I highly doubt making the game look like a steaming pile of cow dung will do anything other than drive customers away which will result in the eventual demise of the game. It isn't dead now but it can be killed by the very people who like it. It isn't a bad game, it's a good game. It has a bad developer. One guy. Don't destroy the game by tearing it down because of him. /Wall Of Words End

DD696 -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/3/2019 8:17:45 PM)
Lobster, thank you for your honesty. An answer like that is greatly appreciated. I do hope you do not get penalized for it from anyone on the development team. No one here dislikes the operational art of war. It is what draws us together. We like it very much. If we didn't like it, we'd be off anxiously awaiting the game aimed for kiddies that Slitherine just announced. Sadly, Eric Rukins sold Matrix to Slitherine and it appears that he has no real authority to do much of anything. Matrix, as us old timers once knew, simply does not exist anymore. We are now dealing with the corporate world of Slitherine who seems to have little appetite for the games that made Matrix a staple for us. I have no desire to visit the Slitherine website and see the sad litany of games that they promote. The old Matrix guys are a dying breed - no thanks to Slitherine. Edit: and if you do get crap from the development team or Slitherine, tell them simply to "pis* off". It is time for the culprits to receive their just rewards. If you don't want to tell them, then I would be happy to. How about unlimited rum and diet cola?

demyansk -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/3/2019 8:45:36 PM)
I'll tell you what, the kids under 25 yrs old don't play the games we like for the most part.

DD696 -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/3/2019 8:49:56 PM)
Right! They prefer first person shooters. If they can't kill someone, then life sucks.

DD696 -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/3/2019 8:57:33 PM)
As Elvis sang so long ago "Money, honey, if you want to get along with me". Had the privilege of spending an afternoon with him one day, then an evening several months later. At the end, a sad waste of so much talent. A sad waste of such a great game.

demyansk -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/3/2019 9:34:03 PM)
Good point

DD696 -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/3/2019 9:35:43 PM)
I do my best for such a dum,ass Marine.

DD696 -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/3/2019 9:54:32 PM)
Edit: Deleted. Not meant for public consumption.

pz501 -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/3/2019 11:08:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lobster quote: ORIGINAL: 76mm TOAW is the sole outlier, I have no idea why... I know I know (wildly waving his hand in the air) ask me ask me! It's Ralph's fault. /Wall Of Words Begin [:D] At one time he was all up for this game. Even had a blog for it. Now it's a part time 'job' (I use the term loosely) /speculation ensues that seems to be far down his priority list. Why he doesn't just hand it off to someone who might have more desire to do justice as the game's developer I don't know. Maybe he makes enough off it to want to hold on. /end speculation So if past history of TOAWIV is anything to go by nothing is going to change. Ever. Bob does the best he can with what he has to work with. Bugs fixes don't get distributed without going through Ralph and then Matrix. Some people want to get rid of Bob and replace him with some unknown imaginary person because they feel Bob is just doing stuff for Bob. However, there is a plan for advancing the game and from what I understand that plan was developed with the help of the community at some time in the past. So if Bob is following that plan, and he is, then how can the people who helped come up with the plan be unhappy with it? Not long ago I asked Tamas if the sequence of how the plan was laid out could be changed for very logical reasons and he politely said no (he is much more diplomatic than I [:D]). So, like I said, nothing will change. Instead of filling this forum with the same things maybe send Erik Rutkins some PMs and rag on him about bug fixes? Especially hot fixes for things that clearly impact the game in a negative way. Or Bart, who probably won't do anything since he is just a temp fill in. I've seen some people say he hasn't shown up here and said anything. How would you like to show up in this forum as the temp project manager knowing you will get thoroughly dumped on. I know I would stay away because the hostility towards management is not recent. I know because I've been part of it since Ralph vanished at 3.5 and didn't surface again for years. I highly doubt making the game look like a steaming pile of cow dung will do anything other than drive customers away which will result in the eventual demise of the game. It isn't dead now but it can be killed by the very people who like it. It isn't a bad game, it's a good game. It has a bad developer. One guy. Don't destroy the game by tearing it down because of him. /Wall Of Words End I'm both surprised and impressed. This is something I completely agree with Jack on. As far as TOAW's concerned, I'm not giving up hope, but I've gone ahead and uninstalled III and IV. First time in about 20 years that I don't have any version of TOAW on a computer, but for now at least, I don't see the need to. Maybe something will change in the future and I'll reinstall. I hope so. For now though, I'll just remember the fun I've had playing scenarios, and never finishing a bunch of projects. I hope you don't get in any trouble either Jack. Well said.

larryfulkerson -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/3/2019 11:20:23 PM)
IMHO Lobster hit the nail on the head. Ralph is the main problem with this project. It's like this project doesn't have a developer. At least for several long periods of time. Like right now. I'd like to see TOAW become an open source project so that us computer programmers could help out. Update the GUI more, fix bugs, expand the features of the game engine, develop some MODS for the community, maybe develop some "skins" so that some eye candy could be applied to the GUI, maybe do away with the some of the abstraction by adding some new code to simulate new features, etc. I'd like to see a night mission for the aircraft, aerial re-supply via air drops, some simple recon missions to reveal hidden enemy units, movement of troops and cargo via aircraft ( airport to airport ), the ability to attack city hexes to damage factory infrastructure, and so on. We could spend the rest of our lives making this game better because there's so much to do. Ralph has developed the AI a lot, thanks Ralph, but more could be done to give Elmer a strategic sense. Maybe more and better sound effects. And of course, an easier editor. To do all this stuff using the traditional development method would take years but as an open source project multiple threads of production could take place. I'm thinking of sending Bart an email just to say HI. [ b.w.schouten(at)hotmail(dot)com ]

pz501 -> RE: Come on Back, Jack (12/3/2019 11:54:11 PM)
Larry, Both you and Jack (Lobster) are correct. The game/project DOES NOT have a dedicated developer, just someone who has access to the sourcecode, and stops by every 6-12 months or so. That's the way it's been for how many years now? I forget. I'd forgotten there is/was a master "wishlist" of items to improve and add on to TOAW. Parts of it I understand are being worked on (by Bob Cross) and implemented where possible. Problems arise I'll wager, when the man with the overall plan and access to everything is needed to put it all together, and he isn't around to do so. You mention open source. I don't think it's very likely (nice idea though). Someone is controlling the code and I don't think they are willing to give it up. Ever. Just my gut feeling, I've got nothing concrete to base this on. At this point I wonder if it wouldn't be a better idea to bring in a whole new team and start over with a blank sheet of paper, designing a brand new wargame construction set? Even drop the TOAW name in favor of something new as well. This idea I know is really just a pipe dream and most likely will never occur. It calls for a publisher, developer, programmers, artists, etc. Above all it calls for $ and time. Who knows? Maybe you'll get that open source wish (I hope so), or maybe we'll see the start of something new. Only time will tell. One thing's for certain though: none of us are getting any younger.

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